advice needed re: upgrading to a new semi-pro camera

alu

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Good people - I'm having a heck of a time finding a new camera....
I'd appreciate any advice re: a replacement for my aging Olympus C-2500L
(2.5Mpx).
I love this camera, but the resolution is now inadequate.

For reference:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/c2500l-review/
http://www.steves-digicams.com/c2500.html

The ideal replacement would feature:
- 6-8Mpx SLR type
- low noise
- at least 3x optical zoom
- wide angle zoom lens (~28-80mm equiv..)
- optical TTL viewfinder
- available manual white balance, aperture & shutter speed control

- hotshoe, integrated lens and image stabilizer would be a bonus
- file types (jpg, tiff, raw) is not an issue.

I had high hopes for the new Sony DSC-H1
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sony/dsc_h1-review/index.shtml, but like
most newer models, it has an EV vs. TTL viewfinder, focuses on telephoto vs.
wide angle capabilities, and the images seem rather noisy.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.
-alu
 
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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:13:01 -0400, "alu" <none@none.com> wrote:

>Good people - I'm having a heck of a time finding a new camera....
>I'd appreciate any advice re: a replacement for my aging Olympus C-2500L
>(2.5Mpx).
>I love this camera, but the resolution is now inadequate.
>
>For reference:
>http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/c2500l-review/
>http://www.steves-digicams.com/c2500.html
>
>The ideal replacement would feature:
>- 6-8Mpx SLR type
>- low noise
>- at least 3x optical zoom
>- wide angle zoom lens (~28-80mm equiv..)
>- optical TTL viewfinder
>- available manual white balance, aperture & shutter speed control
>
>- hotshoe, integrated lens and image stabilizer would be a bonus
>- file types (jpg, tiff, raw) is not an issue.
>
>I had high hopes for the new Sony DSC-H1
>http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sony/dsc_h1-review/index.shtml, but like
>most newer models, it has an EV vs. TTL viewfinder, focuses on telephoto vs.
>wide angle capabilities, and the images seem rather noisy.
>
>Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>-alu
>
If you've been satisfied with the Oly C2500 then have you looked at
the C8080??? Might be just what you're looking for!!!
 
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"alu" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:Tfoqe.16438$_n2.1267006@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Good people - I'm having a heck of a time finding a new camera....
> I'd appreciate any advice re: a replacement for my aging Olympus C-2500L
> (2.5Mpx).
> I love this camera, but the resolution is now inadequate.
>
> For reference:
> http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/c2500l-review/
> http://www.steves-digicams.com/c2500.html
>
> The ideal replacement would feature:
> - 6-8Mpx SLR type
> - low noise
> - at least 3x optical zoom
> - wide angle zoom lens (~28-80mm equiv..)
> - optical TTL viewfinder
> - available manual white balance, aperture & shutter speed control
>
> - hotshoe, integrated lens and image stabilizer would be a bonus
> - file types (jpg, tiff, raw) is not an issue.
>
> I had high hopes for the new Sony DSC-H1
> http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sony/dsc_h1-review/index.shtml, but like
> most newer models, it has an EV vs. TTL viewfinder, focuses on telephoto
> vs.
> wide angle capabilities, and the images seem rather noisy.
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance.
> -alu

Really if you want TTL you will probably have to go to an SLR camera.
However the Panasonic FZ20/5 or Canon S2IS will probably do what you want,
don't get too panicked about the 6-8MP.
 

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"Pete D" <no@email.com> wrote in message
news:XXoqe.12462$F7.4810@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> Really if you want TTL you will probably have to go to an SLR camera.
> However the Panasonic FZ20/5 or Canon S2IS will probably do what you want,
> don't get too panicked about the 6-8MP.

Thanks Pete, The FZs do look interesting, but the key features I'm after are
higher resolution (6-8Mpx) and TTL, otherwise i may as well keep the 2500L.
Folks, will I have to go with an SLR? Say it aint so.
-alu
 
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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:11:01 -0400, alu <none@none.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Pete, The FZs do look interesting, but the key features I'm after are
> higher resolution (6-8Mpx) and TTL, otherwise i may as well keep the 2500L.
> Folks, will I have to go with an SLR? Say it aint so.

You can have an optical viewfinder, or a through-the-lens viewfinder,
but not both -- not with an all-in-one camera.

--
Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
--Josh Micah Marshall
 

alu

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"Ben Rosengart" <br+rpdss@panix.com> wrote
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:11:01 -0400, alu <none@none.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Pete, The FZs do look interesting, but the key features I'm after
are
> > higher resolution (6-8Mpx) and TTL, otherwise i may as well keep the
2500L.
> > Folks, will I have to go with an SLR? Say it aint so.
>
> You can have an optical viewfinder, or a through-the-lens viewfinder,
> but not both -- not with an all-in-one camera.
>
> --
> Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400
x215
> Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
> questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
> --Josh Micah Marshall


Ben,
My mistake re: terminology - what I'm after ideally is TTL as I have in the
2500, not EV and not optical (point-n-shoot) viewfinder - any suggestions?
-alu
 
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"Ben Rosengart" <br+rpdss@panix.com> wrote in message
news:slrndakc3k.6l0.br@panix5.panix.com...
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:11:01 -0400, alu <none@none.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Pete, The FZs do look interesting, but the key features I'm after
>> are
>> higher resolution (6-8Mpx) and TTL, otherwise i may as well keep the
>> 2500L.
>> Folks, will I have to go with an SLR? Say it aint so.
>
> You can have an optical viewfinder, or a through-the-lens viewfinder,
> but not both -- not with an all-in-one camera.
>

The jump from 5MP to 6 MP is negligible the jump up to 8MP is only a little
more than negligible but the price increase is huge. The jump from 6MP to
8MP is 14% and will bearly be noticible unless you are using a very large
magnifiying glass. I do not know all cameras ever manufactured but I doubt
that TTL has been built into an all in one camera or ever will.
 
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alu wrote:
[]
> The ideal replacement would feature:
> - 6-8Mpx SLR type
> - low noise
> - at least 3x optical zoom
> - wide angle zoom lens (~28-80mm equiv..)
> - optical TTL viewfinder
> - available manual white balance, aperture & shutter speed control
>
> - hotshoe, integrated lens and image stabilizer would be a bonus
> - file types (jpg, tiff, raw) is not an issue.

Nikon 8400 - 8MP, good EVF, 24 - 85mm zoom, fast focussing, hotshoe, all
the manual controls you could want. Both the EVF and LCD finders work
through the lens - I don't you'll find optical TTL without going to a
DSLR, though.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikoncp8400/

David
 
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On Friday 10 June 2005 15:13, alu wrote:

> Good people - I'm having a heck of a time finding a new camera....
> I'd appreciate any advice re: a replacement for my aging Olympus
> C-2500L (2.5Mpx).
> I love this camera, but the resolution is now inadequate.
>
> For reference:
> http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/c2500l-review/
> http://www.steves-digicams.com/c2500.html
>
> The ideal replacement would feature:
> - 6-8Mpx SLR type
> - low noise
> - at least 3x optical zoom
> - wide angle zoom lens (~28-80mm equiv..)
> - optical TTL viewfinder
> - available manual white balance, aperture & shutter speed control
>
> - hotshoe, integrated lens and image stabilizer would be a bonus
> - file types (jpg, tiff, raw) is not an issue.

Sounds like you've reached the point to upgrade to a DSLR. Canon's CMOS
sensor has very low noise, lower than Nikon, that's why I picked a
Canon DSLR over Nikon's even though my 35mm film equipment is Nikon.

The Canon Digital Rebel 300D is a nice cost effective choice in a new
6MP camera -- about $700 US for the body from B&H Photo. I don't think
the extra $200 for the 8MP XT model is worth the extra money.

If you can consider a used camera, then the Canon D60 is an excellent
choice in 6MP. Available on eBay for around $500. Or its replacement,
the 10D.

And, FWIW, I got a used Canon D30 last summer to add quality digital to
my photo bag of tricks, and even though it's only a 3MP camera, the
image quality, because of the larger sensor and very low noise, among
other things, is considerably better than the 3MP Olympus 3030Z I have.

--
Stefan Patric
NoLife Polymath Group
tootek2@yahoo.com
 
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In article <_UJqe.9785$tr.2599@fed1read03>,
Stefan Patric <writeme@addressbelow.com> wrote:
>On Friday 10 June 2005 15:13, alu wrote:
>
>> Good people - I'm having a heck of a time finding a new camera....
>> I'd appreciate any advice re: a replacement for my aging Olympus
>> C-2500L (2.5Mpx).
>> I love this camera, but the resolution is now inadequate.

[ ... requirements snipped ... ]

>Sounds like you've reached the point to upgrade to a DSLR.

Of course, since you posted this to a DSLR-only newsgroup, you
should expect this answer. :)

> Canon's CMOS
>sensor has very low noise, lower than Nikon, that's why I picked a
>Canon DSLR over Nikon's even though my 35mm film equipment is Nikon.

While my option was to go for the Nikon D70, in part because I
already had quite a bit of Nikon glass. If you do not have any lenses,
you can choose based purely on what is right for you at this point in
time.

I would suggest that you go to a photo store (if there are good
ones wherever you live), and actually *handle* all of the candidates. I
know that I find the D70 to be a very comfortable camera to use
(admittedly, I've used Nikons for a long time, so I am accustomed to how
they do things).

I have read some reports of the smaller Cannons (Rebel 300 and
350) not feeling right to some who have tried them. Sometimes it is a
complaint that they feel too "plastic-y", and sometimes that it is simply
too small a camera for their hands. But I have seen one complaint
(from a non-SLR user) that the Digital Rebel feels too *large* and
*heavy* for them -- so it is all subjective. Find what works for you.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
 
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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:13:01 -0400, "alu" <none@none.com> wrote:


Canon 20D there is no other rational choice.


*********************************************************

"I have been a witness, and these pictures are
my testimony. The events I have recorded should
not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

-James Nachtwey-
http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
 
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"DoN. Nichols" <dnichols@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:d8fvdf$b9l$1@Fuego.d-and-d.com...
> In article <_UJqe.9785$tr.2599@fed1read03>,
> Stefan Patric <writeme@addressbelow.com> wrote:
>>On Friday 10 June 2005 15:13, alu wrote:
>>
>>> Good people - I'm having a heck of a time finding a new camera....
>>> I'd appreciate any advice re: a replacement for my aging Olympus
>>> C-2500L (2.5Mpx).
>>> I love this camera, but the resolution is now inadequate.
>
> [ ... requirements snipped ... ]
>
>>Sounds like you've reached the point to upgrade to a DSLR.
>
> Of course, since you posted this to a DSLR-only newsgroup, you
> should expect this answer. :)
>
>> Canon's CMOS
>>sensor has very low noise, lower than Nikon, that's why I picked a
>>Canon DSLR over Nikon's even though my 35mm film equipment is Nikon.
>
> While my option was to go for the Nikon D70, in part because I
> already had quite a bit of Nikon glass. If you do not have any lenses,
> you can choose based purely on what is right for you at this point in
> time.
>
> I would suggest that you go to a photo store (if there are good
> ones wherever you live), and actually *handle* all of the candidates. I
> know that I find the D70 to be a very comfortable camera to use
> (admittedly, I've used Nikons for a long time, so I am accustomed to how
> they do things).
>
> I have read some reports of the smaller Cannons (Rebel 300 and
> 350) not feeling right to some who have tried them. Sometimes it is a
> complaint that they feel too "plastic-y", and sometimes that it is simply
> too small a camera for their hands. But I have seen one complaint
> (from a non-SLR user) that the Digital Rebel feels too *large* and
> *heavy* for them -- so it is all subjective. Find what works for you.
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.
>
> --
> Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
> (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
> --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Good advice Don.
 
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"alu" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:Tfoqe.16438$_n2.1267006@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Good people - I'm having a heck of a time finding a new camera....
> I'd appreciate any advice re: a replacement for my aging Olympus C-2500L
> (2.5Mpx).
> I love this camera, but the resolution is now inadequate.
>
> For reference:
> http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/c2500l-review/
> http://www.steves-digicams.com/c2500.html
>
> The ideal replacement would feature:
> - 6-8Mpx SLR type
> - low noise
> - at least 3x optical zoom
> - wide angle zoom lens (~28-80mm equiv..)
> - optical TTL viewfinder
> - available manual white balance, aperture & shutter speed control
>
> - hotshoe, integrated lens and image stabilizer would be a bonus
> - file types (jpg, tiff, raw) is not an issue.

If you can ease up a tad on your megapixel requirements, you might check the
Olympus store on Ebay for an Oly E-20N. Whatever you do, though, don't get
rid of your trusty C-2500L! I continue to use mine as a general-purpose
camera (especially for super-macro shots) and if you don't mind a little PS
post-processing and make prints 7x5" or below, the old guy still cranks out
a good shot.
 

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"Paul H." <xxpaulhtck@zzcomcast.yycom> wrote in message
news:eek:IOdnZUjx9jSRTDfRVn-iA@comcast.com...
>
> "alu" <none@none.com> wrote in message
> news:Tfoqe.16438$_n2.1267006@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > Good people - I'm having a heck of a time finding a new camera....
> > I'd appreciate any advice re: a replacement for my aging Olympus C-2500L
> > (2.5Mpx).
> > I love this camera, but the resolution is now inadequate.
> >
> > For reference:
> > http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/c2500l-review/
> > http://www.steves-digicams.com/c2500.html
> >
> > The ideal replacement would feature:
> > - 6-8Mpx SLR type
> > - low noise
> > - at least 3x optical zoom
> > - wide angle zoom lens (~28-80mm equiv..)
> > - optical TTL viewfinder
> > - available manual white balance, aperture & shutter speed control
> >
> > - hotshoe, integrated lens and image stabilizer would be a bonus
> > - file types (jpg, tiff, raw) is not an issue.
>
> If you can ease up a tad on your megapixel requirements, you might check
the
> Olympus store on Ebay for an Oly E-20N. Whatever you do, though, don't
get
> rid of your trusty C-2500L! I continue to use mine as a general-purpose
> camera (especially for super-macro shots) and if you don't mind a little
PS
> post-processing and make prints 7x5" or below, the old guy still cranks
out
> a good shot.


Thanks Paul,
The E-20N is just about what I was after - I'd given up on a TTL all-in-one.
Now if the cost was less than my car, I'd be out there buyin' one.
Looks like I will have to compromise somewhere (maybe the Olympus 8080 or
7070?), and no, I won't give up the old 2500, you make a good case, and it
looks to be a rare breed.
Thanks to everyone that responded so far, I've looked over every suggested
model.
-alu
 
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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:20:18 -0400, alu <none@none.com> wrote:
>
> "Ben Rosengart" <br+rpdss@panix.com> wrote
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:11:01 -0400, alu <none@none.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Thanks Pete, The FZs do look interesting, but the key features I'm after
> are
>> > higher resolution (6-8Mpx) and TTL, otherwise i may as well keep the
> 2500L.
>> > Folks, will I have to go with an SLR? Say it aint so.
>>
>> You can have an optical viewfinder, or a through-the-lens viewfinder,
>> but not both -- not with an all-in-one camera.
>
> Ben,
> My mistake re: terminology - what I'm after ideally is TTL as I have in the
> 2500, not EV and not optical (point-n-shoot) viewfinder - any suggestions?

How exactly does this viewfinder work then?

--
Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
--Josh Micah Marshall
 
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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:20:18 -0400, alu <none@none.com> wrote:
>
> "Ben Rosengart" <br+rpdss@panix.com> wrote
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:11:01 -0400, alu <none@none.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Thanks Pete, The FZs do look interesting, but the key features I'm after
> are
>> > higher resolution (6-8Mpx) and TTL, otherwise i may as well keep the
> 2500L.
>> > Folks, will I have to go with an SLR? Say it aint so.
>>
>> You can have an optical viewfinder, or a through-the-lens viewfinder,
>> but not both -- not with an all-in-one camera.
>
> Ben,
> My mistake re: terminology - what I'm after ideally is TTL as I have in the
> 2500, not EV and not optical (point-n-shoot) viewfinder - any suggestions?

How exactly does this viewfinder work then?

--
Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
--Josh Micah Marshall
 
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Ben Rosengart <br+rpdss@panix.com> writes:

> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:20:18 -0400, alu <none@none.com> wrote:
> >
> > "Ben Rosengart" <br+rpdss@panix.com> wrote
> >> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:11:01 -0400, alu <none@none.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Thanks Pete, The FZs do look interesting, but the key features I'm after
> > are
> >> > higher resolution (6-8Mpx) and TTL, otherwise i may as well keep the
> > 2500L.
> >> > Folks, will I have to go with an SLR? Say it aint so.
> >>
> >> You can have an optical viewfinder, or a through-the-lens viewfinder,
> >> but not both -- not with an all-in-one camera.
> >
> > Ben,
> > My mistake re: terminology - what I'm after ideally is TTL as I have in the
> > 2500, not EV and not optical (point-n-shoot) viewfinder - any suggestions?
>
> How exactly does this viewfinder work then?

There are 3 main types of viewfinders, unfortunately 2 of them are called
optical.

At the low end, you have a viewfinder which has its own lens that tracks the
focusing of the main lens, but does not go through the lens. This is typically
used in point & shoot cameras (both film and digital), and typically only for
cameras up to 3x zoom. Since you are not looking through the lens of the
camera, it can suffer from parallex (ie, not viewing what the camera will
photograph), particularly for closeup shots.

In the middle, you have viewfinders that are a minature LCD screen mounted
where the VF normally is, and you look into that and is an electronic
viewfinder (or EV). All EV's are not the same, different cameras have
different specs. For example on my C-2100UZ, I have no problems with following
action on the EV, because it has a fairly fast refresh rate, while many other
people complain that the refresh rate on their EV's is too slow to use for
tracking subjects. One advantage of the EV is you can see the image as the
camera would see it (ie, with white balance adjustments, and directly for depth
of field). Some cameras will also magnify the center image 4x or 8x when you
are doing manual focusing, but many will not. Besides refresh rates, a major
problem of EV's is they don't work too well when the light is low, since the
sensor chip is having to read the image in real-time.

At the top end, you have DSLRS with through the lens viewfinders, there is a
mirror in front of the sensor that routes the light to a pentamirror or
pentaprisim and to the viewfinder. When the shutter is pressed, the mirror
moves away, and the light falls on the sensor, and takes the picture. You do
have the distinctive clack as the mirror is moved when the picture is taken,
though the high end cameras engineer it to be much quieter than the consumer
DSLRs. Coming from a camera with an EV, I find I do miss the instant review I
got of the picture I took, which meant I could see the image without moving the
camera from my eye. I also find the EV camera easier to frame when I'm using a
tripod than a TTL viewfinder.

--
Michael Meissner
email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
http://www.the-meissners.org
 
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"alu" <none@none.com> writes:

> Thanks Paul,
> The E-20N is just about what I was after - I'd given up on a TTL all-in-one.
> Now if the cost was less than my car, I'd be out there buyin' one.

You must have a cheap car. The average price I see for used E-20n's at
bhphotovideo.com is ~ $560.

--
Michael Meissner
email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
http://www.the-meissners.org
 

alu

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"Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message
news:m3ll5dytz0.fsf@glinda.the-meissners.org...
> "alu" <none@none.com> writes:
>
> > Thanks Paul,
> > The E-20N is just about what I was after - I'd given up on a TTL
all-in-one.
> > Now if the cost was less than my car, I'd be out there buyin' one.
>
> You must have a cheap car. The average price I see for used E-20n's at
> bhphotovideo.com is ~ $560.
>
> --
> Michael Meissner

Hey, no comments about my '82 Pacer please.
I don't think I'd buy a used camera online, that's just me I guess. However,
I will have a look in the local shop.
Re: your other comments about finding the EVF easier to work with in some
situations, that's really interesting.
I'll have to keep an open mind and not disqualify EV viewfinders offhand.
thanks
-alu
 
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On 14 Jun 2005 08:55:54 -0400, Michael Meissner <mrmnews@the-meissners.org>
wrote:
> Ben Rosengart <br+rpdss@panix.com> writes:
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:20:18 -0400, alu <none@none.com> wrote:
>> > "Ben Rosengart" <br+rpdss@panix.com> wrote
>> >
>> >> You can have an optical viewfinder, or a through-the-lens viewfinder,
>> >> but not both -- not with an all-in-one camera.
>> >
>> > My mistake re: terminology - what I'm after ideally is TTL as I have in the
>> > 2500, not EV and not optical (point-n-shoot) viewfinder - any suggestions?
>>
>> How exactly does this viewfinder work then?
>
> There are 3 main types of viewfinders, unfortunately 2 of them are called
> optical.

Two of them *are* optical. But only one of them is "through the
lens", and as you say, that's the kind found only in SLRs. So alu
doesn't want an SLR, but he doesn't want an "optical (point-n-shoot)
viewfinder" either -- and that leaves 0 optical options.

My guess is that alu is mistaken and the 2500's viewfinder does
not provide a view through the taking lens. Perhaps it is just a
better than average non-TTL viewfinder. My other guess is that alu
misunderstands the meaning of "TTL", which (as you know) refers to
a view through the same lens that's used to expose the sensor.

Alu, consider an Oly 5050 perhaps? It has a nice zooming optical
viewfinder, and an f/1.8 lens on the wide end. It's a little
outdated but still a nice camera. I am considering shedding my
8080 and picking up a 5050 myself.

--
Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
--Josh Micah Marshall
 
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