Anyone using DNG?

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Just wondering if anyone here is committed to DNG? I finally tried it out
last night and really like the fact that the files converted from my Rebel
XT RAW files are 75% the size of the original RAWs. Adobe says the
compression is lossless, does anyone know for sure whether all info is
retained?

My current workflow is Canon DPP to Photoshop CS but I wouldn't mind
switching to DNG Converter to Adobe Camera RAW to Photoshop if my images
will be safe.

Comments?

Thanks,
Greg
 
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G.T. wrote:

> Just wondering if anyone here is committed to DNG? I finally tried it out
> last night and really like the fact that the files converted from my Rebel
> XT RAW files are 75% the size of the original RAWs. Adobe says the
> compression is lossless, does anyone know for sure whether all info is
> retained?
>
> My current workflow is Canon DPP to Photoshop CS but I wouldn't mind
> switching to DNG Converter to Adobe Camera RAW to Photoshop if my images
> will be safe.

I use it to reduce file size and make what I think will be a better
supported archive for future use. My Nikon D70 files lose a few odd ends
in the EXIF data, that is common for some of the shooting information to
be in a non-standard format and no other program can recover it all
either. I forget what exactly, do a comparison & check for yourself.


--
Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net
Triteleia Natives
http://www.triteleia.com
(415) 722-6037
 
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On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:20:42 -0000, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Jeremy
Nixon <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote:

>Not having to install Nikon's software just to get the libraries to be able
>to preview in iView MediaPro (and whatever other software uses the Nikon SDK)
>is a big bonus, considering that even installing and never running Nikon's
>worthless excuse for bundled software silently does things to your system
>configuration files and runs an invisible background process all the time
>without even telling you. You can reverse the damage (if you know what
>you're doing in the deep innards of system files), but I'd rather not
>install software at all made by people with that kind of attitude toward
>my system.

Not sure what "library" you're talking about. Do you mean the PS plugin?
You can extract that from the CD itself and "install" it if you want. No
need to do the install routine from the cd.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
 
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In article <d4ydnZ4BVoe5c2XfRVn-oA@speakeasy.net>,
Paul Furman <paul-@-edgehill.net> wrote:
>G.T. wrote:
>
>> Just wondering if anyone here is committed to DNG? I finally tried it out
>> last night and really like the fact that the files converted from my Rebel
>> XT RAW files are 75% the size of the original RAWs. Adobe says the
>> compression is lossless, does anyone know for sure whether all info is
>> retained?
>>
>> My current workflow is Canon DPP to Photoshop CS but I wouldn't mind
>> switching to DNG Converter to Adobe Camera RAW to Photoshop if my images
>> will be safe.
>
>I use it to reduce file size and make what I think will be a better
>supported archive for future use. My Nikon D70 files lose a few odd ends
>in the EXIF data, that is common for some of the shooting information to
>be in a non-standard format and no other program can recover it all
>either. I forget what exactly, do a comparison & check for yourself.

Actually, you lose information because it *isn't* in the EXIF data.
That's because EXIF doesn't have tags for some of the data (such as
exactly which lens you are using, for one example), so the camera
manufacturers have to resort to other ways of storing this stuff.

That said, DNG V3.x has the ability to store all this private
MakerNote data in the DNG file for those manufacturers who use a
private RAW file format that is basically an extension to TIFF/EP.
This includes Canon, Nikon & Pentax, and possibly a few others.
While no software I know of is capable, at present, of reading
and displaying this manufacturer-specific private data from the
saved copy of the MakerNote tag, it is at least theoretically
possible. This makes switching to DNG even less risky.

Despite that, though, I still recommend archiving the original
RAW file. Maybe I'm over-cautious, but DVDs are cheap.

I'm just about to switch to DNG myself, so my process will be:

o Create 2nd copy of files to a removable HDD
before deleting from CF cards/microdrives

o Archive original camera RAW files to DVD or CD

o Convert RAWs to DNG

o Copy DNGs to removable HDD (and possibly to DVD)

o Original RAW files can now be deleted from system
(although I'll probably keep selected images online,
just in case I want to use a different RAW converter)

o All the usual image editing stuff.

o Save processed files to removable HDD and to CD.
 
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"G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> writes:
> Just wondering if anyone here is committed to DNG? I finally tried
> it out last night and really like the fact that the files converted
> from my Rebel XT RAW files are 75% the size of the original RAWs.
> Adobe says the compression is lossless, does anyone know for sure
> whether all info is retained?
>
> My current workflow is Canon DPP to Photoshop CS but I wouldn't mind
> switching to DNG Converter to Adobe Camera RAW to Photoshop if my
> images will be safe.

Only downside I've found so far is that DNG-files cannot be opened
by a number of RAW-converters I sometimes use. I.e. once they're
converted they are out of bounds for Canon's EOS Viewer Utility,
and RawShooter essentials - and I'm more or less stuck with ACR.
(Haven't tried Bibble or C1, tho').

Hopefully, other software houses will soon support the format.
But for now, I'm keeping my CRWs along with the DNGs, just in case.
--
- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
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Ed Ruf <egruf_usenet@cox.net> wrote:

> Not sure what "library" you're talking about. Do you mean the PS plugin?

No. When you use an application that calls Nikon's SDK to do things like
preview NEF files, you need to have Nikon's libraries installed, which get
installed with the bundled software. If you don't have that installed,
iView, for example, can't display NEF files and will simply show an error
message that it can't find the media importer.

I don't know if any software that uses Nikon's SDK actually ships the
Nikon libraries along with the software, which would make that unnecessary.
But iView MediaPro in particular can't work with NEF files unless you have
installed Nikon's software.

--
Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com
 
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On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:42:40 -0000, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Jeremy
Nixon <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote:

>Ed Ruf <egruf_usenet@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Not sure what "library" you're talking about. Do you mean the PS plugin?
>
>No. When you use an application that calls Nikon's SDK to do things like
>preview NEF files, you need to have Nikon's libraries installed, which get
>installed with the bundled software. If you don't have that installed,
>iView, for example, can't display NEF files and will simply show an error
>message that it can't find the media importer.
>
>I don't know if any software that uses Nikon's SDK actually ships the
>Nikon libraries along with the software, which would make that unnecessary.
>But iView MediaPro in particular can't work with NEF files unless you have
>installed Nikon's software.

Still not clear, you mean what bundled software? NikonView, Picture
project? Which?
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
 
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Ed Ruf <egruf_usenet@cox.net> wrote:

> Still not clear, you mean what bundled software? NikonView, Picture
> project? Which?

Either one. Bundled as opposed to Nikon Capture, which is nefarious in
other ways.

--
Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com
 
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In article <11fib1qfvj66m60@corp.supernews.com>,
Jeremy Nixon <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote:
>
>Not having to install Nikon's software just to get the libraries to be able
>to preview in iView MediaPro (and whatever other software uses the Nikon SDK)
>is a big bonus, considering that even installing and never running Nikon's
>worthless excuse for bundled software silently does things to your system
>configuration files and runs an invisible background process all the time
>without even telling you. You can reverse the damage (if you know what
>you're doing in the deep innards of system files), but I'd rather not
>install software at all made by people with that kind of attitude toward
>my system.

Such as, say, Adobe? One of the things I really, *really* dislike about
Photoshop Elements 3.0 is that it goes ahead and installs an alert listener
that insists on popping up and looking at your compact flash cards when you
plug one in to the system. No options during the install - it just does it.
 
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"John Francis" <johnf@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ddbdop$ebs$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <11fib1qfvj66m60@corp.supernews.com>,
> Jeremy Nixon <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote:
> >
> >Not having to install Nikon's software just to get the libraries to be
able
> >to preview in iView MediaPro (and whatever other software uses the Nikon
SDK)
> >is a big bonus, considering that even installing and never running
Nikon's
> >worthless excuse for bundled software silently does things to your system
> >configuration files and runs an invisible background process all the time
> >without even telling you. You can reverse the damage (if you know what
> >you're doing in the deep innards of system files), but I'd rather not
> >install software at all made by people with that kind of attitude toward
> >my system.
>
> Such as, say, Adobe? One of the things I really, *really* dislike about
> Photoshop Elements 3.0 is that it goes ahead and installs an alert
listener
> that insists on popping up and looking at your compact flash cards when
you
> plug one in to the system. No options during the install - it just does
it.

Doesn't do that on OS X.

Greg
 
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On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:20:57 +0000 (UTC), in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
johnf@panix.com (John Francis) wrote:

>Such as, say, Adobe? One of the things I really, *really* dislike about
>Photoshop Elements 3.0 is that it goes ahead and installs an alert listener
>that insists on popping up and looking at your compact flash cards when you
>plug one in to the system. No options during the install - it just does it.

I'm running the PSE3 demo and after the install you can disable this. Yes
it is frustrating. Even more I 've found no way to completely disable the
add to organizer selection in the save dialogs. I don't wish to use this
feature at all.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
 
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In article <11fif7odr1vnbca@corp.supernews.com>,
G.T. <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>"John Francis" <johnf@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:ddbdop$ebs$1@reader2.panix.com...
>> In article <11fib1qfvj66m60@corp.supernews.com>,
>> Jeremy Nixon <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Not having to install Nikon's software just to get the libraries to be
>able
>> >to preview in iView MediaPro (and whatever other software uses the Nikon
>SDK)
>> >is a big bonus, considering that even installing and never running
>Nikon's
>> >worthless excuse for bundled software silently does things to your system
>> >configuration files and runs an invisible background process all the time
>> >without even telling you. You can reverse the damage (if you know what
>> >you're doing in the deep innards of system files), but I'd rather not
>> >install software at all made by people with that kind of attitude toward
>> >my system.
>>
>> Such as, say, Adobe? One of the things I really, *really* dislike
>> about >> Photoshop Elements 3.0 is that it goes ahead and installs
>> an alert listener that insists on popping up and looking at your
>> compact flash cards when you plug one in to the system. No options
>> during the install - it just does it.

>Doesn't do that on OS X.

That's not really an option. For a start, it doesn't run on this hardware.
 
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G.T. wrote:
> "Jeremy Nixon" <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote in message
> >
[snip]
>
> So you're completely on-board with DNG. I was wondering who has enough
> faith in the format to get rid of their originals. I definitely like the
> idea of a standard RAW format and the smaller file size is a bonus. And it
> looks like DNG is gaining at least a little traction with 3rd party RAW
> converters.

I convert directly from the card to the PC, so my original PEFs never
get onto the PC. Once I have copied the DNGs to a second place, and
have checked the 2nd copy in Bridge to ensure that the conversion has
worked, I reformat the card in the camera.

I use ACR so I am not inconvenienced by Raw converters that don't
accept DNGs, but obviously I want to see all Raw-handling software
catering for DNG as well. At the moment there are about 35 or more
non-Adobe products that handle DNG, of which most are viewers and image
managers rather than Raw converters. The process of adoption by all
products is slow (but steady), and will take years, so some people
still need to retain their original files, or not use DNG at all.

My original main motivation was the smaller sizes. (I started using DNG
about 2 weeks after it was launched, in fact 10 months ago today!) Now,
the fact that ACR 3.1 can store its settings in the DNG file is another
advantage, because it keeps everything together.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
 
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"G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> spake:

>Just wondering if anyone here is committed to DNG? I finally tried it out
>last night and really like the fact that the files converted from my Rebel

Yes, exclusively. My workflow will often have me backup the RAWs right
after dumping my flash cards (my "you made a backup, right?" copy), and
then convert to DNG. I tried out Nikon Capture during the trial period and
simply don't need to waste money or precious heartbeats on that level of
tweaking. Adobe's plugin is quite streamlined, and with the sidecar files
I feel quite comfortable sitting down to plow through 400 images, each one
getting the custom treatment.

>Adobe says the compression is lossless, does anyone know for sure whether
>all info is retained?

1) The original RAW can be embedded if you are really paranoid.
2) The compression is lossless. (The very nature of RAW data means you
can't cut corners.)
3) They have already established that NEF (and likely other formats,
because hey, why not?) has encrypted data, and they are quite content to
leave said data encrypted. Essentially Nikon software will handle Nikon
RAW the best, that's a given. Standard stuff like IPTC and EXIF should be
free and clear and preserved properly. Adobe is keeping to its mission
statement and extending the olive branch to all companies, AFAIK.

>My current workflow is Canon DPP to Photoshop CS but I wouldn't mind
>switching to DNG Converter to Adobe Camera RAW to Photoshop if my images
>will be safe.

They are safe in the sense that as long as Photoshop is available you
should be able to open them. And indeed, other programs can happily
support the format. I have done enough batch converting that I don't even
verify the files anymore (unless I update to a new version or something.)
But hey, one bad hard drive crash and your images are toast no matter what
the format. So make a RAW backup and a DNG backup and keep your working
copies mirrored. ;-)

"The only winners in the computer age are those that sell bandwidth and
storage."
-Lucas
 
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In article <og20g1100q73jkhv2qhigkio6bhn37lgig@4ax.com>,
L. Sather <reply@here.com> wrote:
>"G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> spake:
>
>Essentially Nikon software will handle Nikon
>RAW the best, that's a given.

Not so, by any means.

With any fixed choice of RAW converter you're restricted to the
choice of reconstruction algorithm (or algorithms) offered by
that converter. There's no one-size-fits-all 'best' converter
for all RAW images; there are always going to be some images
that just don't work too well with any fixed converter choice.

That's the one thing that has kept me from a 100% DNG workflow;
I've found a handful of images (maybe 1% of my RAW conversions)
where a different converter gives me a better starting point.
 
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I have a Pentax istDS.
Before I convert the Pentax raw files to DNG files I use the Pentax Browser
to rename the raw files, after discarding the bad ones, AND then saving all
the EXIF data on a spread sheet. That way all the EXIF data is preserved,
although it is all not on the individual file.

AE


"John Francis" <johnf@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ddaufb$idi$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <d4ydnZ4BVoe5c2XfRVn-oA@speakeasy.net>,
> Paul Furman <paul-@-edgehill.net> wrote:
>>G.T. wrote:
>>
>>> Just wondering if anyone here is committed to DNG? I finally tried it
>>> out
>>> last night and really like the fact that the files converted from my
>>> Rebel
>>> XT RAW files are 75% the size of the original RAWs. Adobe says the
>>> compression is lossless, does anyone know for sure whether all info is
>>> retained?
>>>
>>> My current workflow is Canon DPP to Photoshop CS but I wouldn't mind
>>> switching to DNG Converter to Adobe Camera RAW to Photoshop if my images
>>> will be safe.
>>
>>I use it to reduce file size and make what I think will be a better
>>supported archive for future use. My Nikon D70 files lose a few odd ends
>>in the EXIF data, that is common for some of the shooting information to
>>be in a non-standard format and no other program can recover it all
>>either. I forget what exactly, do a comparison & check for yourself.
>
> Actually, you lose information because it *isn't* in the EXIF data.
> That's because EXIF doesn't have tags for some of the data (such as
> exactly which lens you are using, for one example), so the camera
> manufacturers have to resort to other ways of storing this stuff.
>
> That said, DNG V3.x has the ability to store all this private
> MakerNote data in the DNG file for those manufacturers who use a
> private RAW file format that is basically an extension to TIFF/EP.
> This includes Canon, Nikon & Pentax, and possibly a few others.
> While no software I know of is capable, at present, of reading
> and displaying this manufacturer-specific private data from the
> saved copy of the MakerNote tag, it is at least theoretically
> possible. This makes switching to DNG even less risky.
>
> Despite that, though, I still recommend archiving the original
> RAW file. Maybe I'm over-cautious, but DVDs are cheap.
>
> I'm just about to switch to DNG myself, so my process will be:
>
> o Create 2nd copy of files to a removable HDD
> before deleting from CF cards/microdrives
>
> o Archive original camera RAW files to DVD or CD
>
> o Convert RAWs to DNG
>
> o Copy DNGs to removable HDD (and possibly to DVD)
>
> o Original RAW files can now be deleted from system
> (although I'll probably keep selected images online,
> just in case I want to use a different RAW converter)
>
> o All the usual image editing stuff.
>
> o Save processed files to removable HDD and to CD.
>
>
>
>
 
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Jeremy Nixon <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote:
>
> No. When you use an application that calls Nikon's SDK to do things like
> preview NEF files, you need to have Nikon's libraries installed, which get
> installed with the bundled software. If you don't have that installed,
> iView, for example, can't display NEF files and will simply show an error
> message that it can't find the media importer.
>

That is not true. I am able to view .NEF files from within Adobe
Photoshop CS2 and Photoshop Elements 3.0 (with updated plugin from
Adobe's site). I never installed the Nikon software on my latest
machine until lately, when I desired a friendlier picture organizer than
what is in Elements 3.0 (CPU hog ... doesn't play well with my machine),
so I installed Picture Perfect. In short, the ONLY thing you need is
the Adobe supplied RAW plugin to view .NEF files. Microsoft's RAW
download also works with no Nikon software installed.

> I don't know if any software that uses Nikon's SDK actually ships the
> Nikon libraries along with the software, which would make that unnecessary.
> But iView MediaPro in particular can't work with NEF files unless you have
> installed Nikon's software.

It is probably capable of using the Adobe RAW plugin. Many software
products are Adobe plugin compatible, including Paint Shop Pro.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
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Thomas T. Veldhouse <veldy71@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jeremy Nixon <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote:
>
>> No. When you use an application that calls Nikon's SDK to do things like
>> preview NEF files, you need to have Nikon's libraries installed, which get
>> installed with the bundled software. If you don't have that installed,
>> iView, for example, can't display NEF files and will simply show an error
>> message that it can't find the media importer.
>
> That is not true. I am able to view .NEF files from within Adobe
> Photoshop CS2 and Photoshop Elements 3.0 (with updated plugin from
> Adobe's site).

Right. I said "an application that calls Nikon's SDK", which Adobe stuff
does not. They have their own code to read NEF files.

>> But iView MediaPro in particular can't work with NEF files unless you have
>> installed Nikon's software.
>
> It is probably capable of using the Adobe RAW plugin.

It isn't.

--
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Jeremy Nixon <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote:
>
> Right. I said "an application that calls Nikon's SDK", which Adobe stuff
> does not. They have their own code to read NEF files.
>

Ah .. I see. In that case, any software that requires one to install
another vendors software before you can use theirs, just for access to
its basic libraries, is likely not worth the cost of its shrinkwrapping.
You may as well use the Nikon software directly. Seems like iView
didn't want to or couldn't pay for licensing to distribute the SDK with
their software. Again, why bother to use iView then?

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
Spammers please contact me at renegade@veldy.net.
 
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Thomas T. Veldhouse <veldy71@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ah .. I see. In that case, any software that requires one to install
> another vendors software before you can use theirs, just for access to
> its basic libraries, is likely not worth the cost of its shrinkwrapping.

I don't know -- does anyone include the camera libraries? Are they even
allowed to?

--
Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com