HDTV and widescreen

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hello all,

anytime I have seen or heard a hdtv or widescreen broadcast it didnt fit the
tv's screen, what I mean is that on a 46 inch widescreen for example, the
picture would be substantially smaller and not only contain black bars on
the bottom but also on the sides....

maybe the signals werent true hdtv or something but can someone with HDTV
tell me if they are able to get a true widescreen signal that fills the
screen of a 46 icnh tv or close to it?
 
G

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I get HDTV and most of the networks carry widescreen, however TSN doesn't
for some reason...

You will see that commercials are all 4:3 not 16:9 so it bounces back and
forth....



--
*************************************************
Steve Walsh
Email: swalsh@odyssey.on.ca
MSN Messenger: Same as Above
*************************************************
"G" <nospamepleaseandthankyou@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JYdHc.11110$2i3.3664@clgrps12...
> hello all,
>
> anytime I have seen or heard a hdtv or widescreen broadcast it didnt fit
the
> tv's screen, what I mean is that on a 46 inch widescreen for example, the
> picture would be substantially smaller and not only contain black bars on
> the bottom but also on the sides....
>
> maybe the signals werent true hdtv or something but can someone with HDTV
> tell me if they are able to get a true widescreen signal that fills the
> screen of a 46 icnh tv or close to it?
>
>
 
G

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What you are describing is a standard definition picture broadcast on an
HDTV channel. I see it a lot. :)

Yes, HD pictures will fill the screen.


"G" <nospamepleaseandthankyou@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JYdHc.11110$2i3.3664@clgrps12...
> hello all,
>
> anytime I have seen or heard a hdtv or widescreen broadcast it didnt fit
the
> tv's screen, what I mean is that on a 46 inch widescreen for example, the
> picture would be substantially smaller and not only contain black bars on
> the bottom but also on the sides....
>
> maybe the signals werent true hdtv or something but can someone with HDTV
> tell me if they are able to get a true widescreen signal that fills the
> screen of a 46 icnh tv or close to it?
>
>
 
G

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It all depends on how the show was encoded.
let me explain, if you are watching NBC the show may be in 16:9, then
commercials are typically in 4:3, the next show on NBC may be in 4:3.
The fact of the matter remains that about 55% are in 16:9 but either way its
still HDTV (1080 lines of interpolated resolution).
Some TV's have the ability to resize the image etc..
I find that with my 42" 16:9 for some odd reason i can resize the screen
(This is a function of the TV) for all inputs except for a HD feed.
Essentially I am stuck with what the show was encoded in for 1080i. But i
havent investigated the issue further, maybe i can resize it.

Honestly it doesnt bother me much cause the image quality is soo awesome
it's worth the loss of some real-estate.

Incidentally if you were to get a 4:3 Sony HDTV (tube) you'd have the same
problem but with the bars above and below the image in some instances.
Untill all TV's are a uniform shape someone will have to be left out.

immij

"Steve Walsh" <swalsh@odyssey.on.ca> wrote in message
news:10er9hhqclajo35@corp.supernews.com...
> I get HDTV and most of the networks carry widescreen, however TSN doesn't
> for some reason...
>
> You will see that commercials are all 4:3 not 16:9 so it bounces back and
> forth....
>
>
>
> --
> *************************************************
> Steve Walsh
> Email: swalsh@odyssey.on.ca
> MSN Messenger: Same as Above
> *************************************************
> "G" <nospamepleaseandthankyou@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:JYdHc.11110$2i3.3664@clgrps12...
> > hello all,
> >
> > anytime I have seen or heard a hdtv or widescreen broadcast it didnt fit
> the
> > tv's screen, what I mean is that on a 46 inch widescreen for example,
the
> > picture would be substantially smaller and not only contain black bars
on
> > the bottom but also on the sides....
> >
> > maybe the signals werent true hdtv or something but can someone with
HDTV
> > tell me if they are able to get a true widescreen signal that fills the
> > screen of a 46 icnh tv or close to it?
> >
> >
>
>
 
G

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In article <9IoHc.38086$_p5.710174@wagner.videotron.net>,
"jimmi | immij" <not_real@videotron.ca> wrote:

> It all depends on how the show was encoded.
> let me explain, if you are watching NBC the show may be in 16:9, then
> commercials are typically in 4:3, the next show on NBC may be in 4:3.
> The fact of the matter remains that about 55% are in 16:9 but either way its
> still HDTV (1080 lines of interpolated resolution).
> Some TV's have the ability to resize the image etc..
> I find that with my 42" 16:9 for some odd reason i can resize the screen
> (This is a function of the TV) for all inputs except for a HD feed.
> Essentially I am stuck with what the show was encoded in for 1080i. But i
> havent investigated the issue further, maybe i can resize it.
>

Let me shed some light on this. I am a Engineering Maint. Supervisor for
the CBS affiliate in my town. We do 1080i which is what CBS does. IMHO,
it is the best HD format. ( people can debate this all night, I won't ).

Anyway, the issue you are having is confusion between standard NTSC and
HD feeds. With my 52" Sony set, ( and most other CONSUMER HD sets.. )
you can squish/squeeze any NTSC signal to "fit" the 16:9 screen.
Normal, Wide, Zoom, Wide Zoom for instance. The pix is a 480x320 ( I
think off the top of my head ) screen.

In the HD world, most people ( if they DO it correctly - that is TV
stations ) have something called an upconverter. Our HD signal mirrors
our NTSC CBS/Local signal. During MOST parts of the day, the output of
the NTSC channel is fed into the upconverter which takes an NTSC signal
and doubles likes and outputs a true 1080i signal. It is IN THE 1080i
FORMAT DIGITALLY but is still 4:3 with bars on the left and right of the
screen. You CANNOT resize this. The UPCONVERTER is a source on the HD
Master Control switcher. Most of the day, the HD MCR SX sits on
upconverter. However, prime time when CBS goes HD for most of their
shows ( other than news type stuff and Survivor type stuff ) the
operator punches CBS HD satellite rx up on the switcher. It's 1080i as
well but TRUE 1080i, not an upconverted NTSC.

The same kinda thing is going on in reverse, mainly in sports. Last
years CBS Superbowl was shot, taped, produced in 1080i HD. However
rather than running a HD truck and a NTSC truck and dual switchers, dual
camera's dual CG's, they had a DOWNCONVERTER that took the 1080i signal,
cropped it and outputed NTSC.

If you want more information, the company we buy gear from is Evertz.
They make some darn good stuff.

www. evertz.com


Alan
 
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When viewing a 4:3 program on a 16:9 set, there will be black bars on the
sides, unless the set is being used in a mode to force the picture to fill
the screen. They do this on consumer sets, by having an option to stretch
out the sides. This makes the
linearity not accurate. I prefe to leave this option turned off.

The scans on the HD sets are generally very precise without much overscan.
This is to get the full picture. Sometimes the edges may be not full width
or height from the broadcaster due to many reasons. Since your set is not
overscanned enough, it is possible to have a little bit of some black border
on the top and bottom, or the sides in the case of an HD or digital source
program where some conversions were done.

If your set is a Plasma or CRT type set, take care for screen burn in,
especially when there are still images at high contrast, such as from video
games, or using the set as a computer monitor.

--

Jerry G. GLG Technologies GLG
==========================


"G" <nospamepleaseandthankyou@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JYdHc.11110$2i3.3664@clgrps12...
hello all,

anytime I have seen or heard a hdtv or widescreen broadcast it didnt fit the
tv's screen, what I mean is that on a 46 inch widescreen for example, the
picture would be substantially smaller and not only contain black bars on
the bottom but also on the sides....

maybe the signals werent true hdtv or something but can someone with HDTV
tell me if they are able to get a true widescreen signal that fills the
screen of a 46 icnh tv or close to it?
 
G

Guest

Guest
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"Alan N" <alann19@cox.net> wrote in message
news:alann19-36D4F2.20361809072004@news.east.cox.net...

< snip>

> Let me shed some light on this. I am a Engineering Maint. Supervisor for
> the CBS affiliate in my town. We do 1080i which is what CBS does. IMHO,
> it is the best HD format. ( people can debate this all night, I won't ).

< snip >
< It is IN THE 1080i
> FORMAT DIGITALLY but is still 4:3 with bars on the left and right of the
> screen. You CANNOT resize this.

O-o-oh, how I wish this were true, unless your meaning applies just to
studio gear. I have seen 4:3 intentionally resized to fill some 16:9 store
displays. It looks just awful -- like in a funhouse mirror, everybody's
short and fat. The ATSC committee allows it, I guess, to throw a
bone to people who need to have every damn pixel lit up. It ought
to be a crime.
 
G

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"Sal M. Onella" <salmonella@food.poisoning.org> wrote in message
news:1s4Ic.338$f9.253@fed1read02...
>
> O-o-oh, how I wish this were true, unless your meaning applies just to
> studio gear. I have seen 4:3 intentionally resized to fill some 16:9
store
> displays. It looks just awful -- like in a funhouse mirror, everybody's
> short and fat. The ATSC committee allows it, I guess, to throw a
> bone to people who need to have every damn pixel lit up. It ought
> to be a crime.
>

Right up there with the shops that wire the speakers out of phase to
'enhance' the audio. tsk.

>
 
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"Sal M. Onella" <salmonella@food.poisoning.org> wrote in message
news:1s4Ic.338$f9.253@fed1read02...
>
> "Alan N" <alann19@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:alann19-36D4F2.20361809072004@news.east.cox.net...
>
> < snip>
>
> > Let me shed some light on this. I am a Engineering Maint. Supervisor for
> > the CBS affiliate in my town. We do 1080i which is what CBS does. IMHO,
> > it is the best HD format. ( people can debate this all night, I won't ).
>
> < snip >
> < It is IN THE 1080i
> > FORMAT DIGITALLY but is still 4:3 with bars on the left and right of the
> > screen. You CANNOT resize this.
>
> O-o-oh, how I wish this were true, unless your meaning applies just to
> studio gear. I have seen 4:3 intentionally resized to fill some 16:9
store
> displays. It looks just awful -- like in a funhouse mirror, everybody's
> short and fat..... <snipped>

Then, don't show re-runs of "Rosanne" anymore.

Gypsy
 
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In article <1s4Ic.338$f9.253@fed1read02>,
"Sal M. Onella" <salmonella@food.poisoning.org> wrote:

> "Alan N" <alann19@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:alann19-36D4F2.20361809072004@news.east.cox.net...
>
> < snip>
>
> > Let me shed some light on this. I am a Engineering Maint. Supervisor for
> > the CBS affiliate in my town. We do 1080i which is what CBS does. IMHO,
> > it is the best HD format. ( people can debate this all night, I won't ).
>
> < snip >
> < It is IN THE 1080i
> > FORMAT DIGITALLY but is still 4:3 with bars on the left and right of the
> > screen. You CANNOT resize this.
>
> O-o-oh, how I wish this were true, unless your meaning applies just to
> studio gear. I have seen 4:3 intentionally resized to fill some 16:9 store
> displays. It looks just awful -- like in a funhouse mirror, everybody's
> short and fat. The ATSC committee allows it, I guess, to throw a
> bone to people who need to have every damn pixel lit up. It ought
> to be a crime.

I don't know if I wasn't clear enough ( I was probably rambling on )..
What I tried to say is that yes, you can squish and squeze and expand
4:3 to fit a 16:9 screen. If you put an upconverted ( from the plant )
4:3 1080i signal into the monitor, you CANNOT do this. You cannot resize
a 1080i signal. ( With any monitor I've ever tried. - Maybe someone
makes one dunno. ).
 
G

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In article <bocIc.40$TB3.6879@news20.bellglobal.com>,
"Gypsy" <spamblocker@mail.net> wrote:

> "Sal M. Onella" <salmonella@food.poisoning.org> wrote in message
> news:1s4Ic.338$f9.253@fed1read02...
> >
> > "Alan N" <alann19@cox.net> wrote in message
> > news:alann19-36D4F2.20361809072004@news.east.cox.net...
> >

> > displays. It looks just awful -- like in a funhouse mirror, everybody's
> > short and fat..... <snipped>
>
> Then, don't show re-runs of "Rosanne" anymore.
>
> Gypsy

Can you PLEASE TELL MY WIFE THIS?? I HATE THAT WOMAN. (ROSANNE) But
everytime I turn around, the wife has that show on. It must run on 10
cable channels.. It's driving me NUTS!!
 
G

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"Alan N" <alann19@cox.net> wrote in message
news:alann19-9C69B0.16394711072004@news.east.cox.net...
> In article <1s4Ic.338$f9.253@fed1read02>,
> "Sal M. Onella" <salmonella@food.poisoning.org> wrote:

< snip >

> > I have seen 4:3 intentionally resized to fill some 16:9 store
> > displays. It looks just awful -- like in a funhouse mirror, everybody's
> > short and fat. The ATSC committee allows it, I guess, to throw a
> > bone to people who need to have every damn pixel lit up. It ought
> > to be a crime.
>
> I don't know if I wasn't clear enough ( I was probably rambling on )..
> What I tried to say is that yes, you can squish and squeze and expand
> 4:3 to fit a 16:9 screen. If you put an upconverted ( from the plant )
> 4:3 1080i signal into the monitor, you CANNOT do this. You cannot resize
> a 1080i signal. ( With any monitor I've ever tried. - Maybe someone
> makes one dunno. ).

I understand. Apparently the yucky (that's a technical term) pix I've seen
in stores were from NTSC or other non-1080i sources, where somebody
determined that the screen had to be full, corner-to-corner, and imposed
the distortion to get it done. ... and no, you weren't rambling.

My current use of DTV is limited to displaying digital OTA signals on
an analog television, using the 480i output of the Samsung SIR-T160. We
have a nearly-new Sony 35" tube NTSC set and I have a hard time with
justifying chucking the thing in favor of a new HDTV.

Speaking of new TV's, I have seen some low-end TV's (under $200 in
store ads) with component inputs. What do they look like, picture-wise?
 
G

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On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:36:19 -0400, Alan N wrote:

> Let me shed some light on this. I am a Engineering Maint. Supervisor for
> the CBS affiliate in my town. We do 1080i which is what CBS does. IMHO,
> it is the best HD format.

How is 1080i best when we have 1080p? Interlaced video sacrifices picture
quality to reduce bandwidth demands. Heck even 720p looks better for high
speed images because you get a full 720 lines in 1/60th of a second, with
1080i you only get 540 lines in 1/60th of a second.
 
G

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Who are "we" as in "we have 1080p"?

"Jason Sperry" <jsperry@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7k6anehsqq3t$.sjn05g09r2jf.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:36:19 -0400, Alan N wrote:
>
> > Let me shed some light on this. I am a Engineering Maint. Supervisor for
> > the CBS affiliate in my town. We do 1080i which is what CBS does. IMHO,
> > it is the best HD format.
>
> How is 1080i best when we have 1080p? Interlaced video sacrifices picture
> quality to reduce bandwidth demands. Heck even 720p looks better for high
> speed images because you get a full 720 lines in 1/60th of a second, with
> 1080i you only get 540 lines in 1/60th of a second.
 
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:50:14 +0200, Jason Sperry wrote:

> Heck even 720p looks better for high
> speed images because you get a full 720 lines in 1/60th of a second, with
> 1080i you only get 540 lines in 1/60th of a second.

Nope, you get the top half of a 720P picture in 1/60th of a second.

720P is only 30 frames per second.
1080i is 60 fields per second to make up 30 frames per second.

1080i is the same frame rate but due to interlace, motion is smoother.
Yes, if you freeze frame, the interlace pic does not have the same
vertical resolution. Picking the better format depends on how you want to
watch your HDTV, stilled or moving.
 
G

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Jason Sperry <jsperry@yahoo.com> wrote:
>How is 1080i best when we have 1080p?

No one is broadcasting 1080p.

WAY too much bandwidth (or, alternately, too much compression) required.
 
G

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On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:07:44 -0700, me@homer.com(Dohhh!!!) wrote:

>No one is broadcasting 1080p.

Quite right, and most likely, never will.

BUT, A FEW HIGHER PRICED TVS CAN UPCONVERT 1080I TO 1080P
 
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Jason Sperry wrote:
> How is 1080i best when we have 1080p?

I didn't think 1080p was an option for ATSC OTA?

(seeing this was crossposted to several satellite groups I suppose 1080p
is a valid option there..)
--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com
 
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"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote:

> I didn't think 1080p was an option for ATSC OTA?
>
> (seeing this was crossposted to several satellite groups I suppose
> 1080p is a valid option there..)

Sure it is. Check again.

ATSC allows 1920 X 1080 at 24p, 30p, and 60i (and the 999/1000 lower
rates). So when you say "1080i," that's shorthand for only the one 60i
option.

Motion protrayal and bandwidth of this 1080 at 60i option is about
equivalent to that of 720 at 60p.

The reason stated back when for not including a 1080 at 60p options was
that with MPEG-2 image compression, this format wouldn't fit within the
19.39 Mb/s channel specified for terrestrial broadcast ATSC. Some people
have disputed this, saying that you can prefilter 1080 at 60p to fit
within 19.39 Mb/s.

Another reason to retain one interlaced format for HDTV was that in the
early days, it made it easier for equipment manufacturers to introduce
HDTV cameras and displays quickly. Sony used this advantage, for
example.

In time, one would think that interlaced transmissions would dwindle and
eventually cease.

Bert
 
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"Dohhh!!!" <me@homer.com> wrote:

> No one is broadcasting 1080p.

Probably true. I've never heard of any station using any of the 1080p
options.

> WAY too much bandwidth (or, alternately, too much compression)
> required.

Not necessarily. The bandwidth needed to transmit 1920 X 1080 at 30p or
at 24p is probably about the same as 1280 X 720 at 60p. In other words,
I'd expect a station transmitting movie material using the accepted ATSC
standard 1920 X 1080 at 24p to use up its entire 19.39 Mb/s channel, at
least for the peaks. Where they use quite a bit less than that if they
were to transmit the movie in 720 at 24p, for example.

Bert
 
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