Left Right Center & Sub Home Theater Suggestions

[Chuck Finley]

I'm looking to upgrade my left, right, and center channel speakers as well as my sub. My budget is $300 max for the subwoofer and about $500 for the left, right, and center. These are for a home theater system primarily used for movies and some games.

My current setup includes:

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V671
LR: Pinnacle STWR12 (S-Fit TWR 1050)
Center: Pinnacle S-Fit CTR 350
Surrounds: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Sub: KLH ASW10-125C
Display: 50" Plasma or 102" Projector

The LRC was "upgraded" to the Pinnacles from a pair of Sony SS-MF750H and a Sony SS-CN550H.

The distance between the left and right speakers is about 8 feet. From the screen to the listening position is ~12 feet. The rear surrounds [7.1 setup] are ~18 feet from the screen.

My setup is in an open floor plan, full size basement, with acoustic ceiling tiles. The home theater system has two walls [front and right side. The left side is open another 15 feet and the rear is partiality blocked by the staircase.

I thought the Pinnacles would be an upgrade from the Sony's, but they sound quite similar. The Sony's have a bit deeper bass while the Pinnacle's sound more refined or controlled.

My main complaint is the center. It doesn't seem to have the presence or clarity I desire. I'm looking for something that reproduces voices clearly and with a large range. My sub just sucks. It's boomy and rumbly. I'd like something with a large punch while still staying tight.

If you've read this far, congrats. Give yourself a cookie. I'll try to finish up quickly. Get on with it!

I'm having no trouble finding speakers that appear to be very highly rated in my budget. What I can't find is suggestions, options, or knowledge about how to choose between speaker brands. I know the basics, the setup, the types of speakers etc. I'd like more info on what makes one speaker better than another.

I'm considering:
BIC America Venturi DV64
BIC America DV-62CLRS
BIC America F12

Polk Audio PSW505
Klipsch Sub-12HG

Thanks for any help and suggestions.

 

[americanaudiophile]

You are right that your budget is tight to actually get the improvements you are need. The BIC will probably not be a step up from the Pinnacles except maybe be able to play louder.
I would suggest these for L/R fronts
http/www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-FS52-LR-Designed-standing-Loudspeaker/dp/B008NCD2S4
and the matching center. Of the subs in your range the Polk is probably the best but it might be better to wait until you can get something better. You don't like boomy bass and most budget subs are pretty bad this way. A Paradigm like this one:
http/www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=subwoofer/model=pdr-100/page=overview
will be tighter and play notes rather than just thud. Might not play loud enough for your room.
You might be able to find a used Paradigm. You might also move the sub to a different location. Place the sub where you sit and walk around the room to the possible locations you can put it. The location that sounds best to you is where the sub should go. If the sub has ports then you can try plugging the port with foam to help remove some boom.

 

[Phallicopter]

The left, right and centre still cost $1000 and you want better for $500 i don't understand how!? The price suggests they are still quality speakers, i would save up more money to get better!

 

[Chuck Finley]

You are right that your budget is tight to actually get the improvements you are need. The BIC will probably not be a step up from the Pinnacles except maybe be able to play louder.
I would suggest these for L/R fronts
http/www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-FS52-LR-Designed-standing-Loudspeaker/dp/B008NCD2S4
and the matching center. Of the subs in your range the Polk is probably the best but it might be better to wait until you can get something better. You don't like boomy bass and most budget subs are pretty bad this way. A Paradigm like this one:
http/www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=subwoofer/model=pdr-100/page=overview
will be tighter and play notes rather than just thud. Might not play loud enough for your room.
You might be able to find a used Paradigm. You might also move the sub to a different location. Place the sub where you sit and walk around the room to the possible locations you can put it. The location that sounds best to you is where the sub should go. If the sub has ports then you can try plugging the port with foam to help remove some boom.

Thanks for the suggestions. I really like the Pioneer bookshelf speakers I have and had thought about the floorstanding models. I don't think they would disappoint, but I don't think they'd be much of an upgrade either.

Best Buy has half of on the Klipsch Reference Series R-28F ($225 single inc. disc.) for a limited time. I listened today for a little bit and thought they were ok. Unfortunately I didn't have anything to hook into their receiver.

Do you think those speakers are a good deal? I've heard these speakers just got released for Best Buy for this Black Friday deal and are just ok compared to the older F30s.

 

[Chuck Finley]

The left, right and centre still cost $1000 and you want better for $500 i don't understand how!? The price suggests they are still quality speakers, i would save up more money to get better!

I got the Pinnacle's for a decent price on Woot. I think they are ok but nothing great. What do you think about the Klipsch R-28Fs? At Best Buy for $225 single.

If I sold the Pinnacles (how much do you think they are worth?) and upgraded my budget to $1000 (maybe including a sub, moreso for just the LCR set) what would you recommend?

Again, these speakers are used 90% of the time for TV and movies. Thanks.

 

[ien2222]

Woo! It's Chuck Finley! Love the name

First, skip the Polk and Klipsch subs, they aren't worth getting at all and you can do better than the BIC speakers.

I'll work around with both budgets...around $800-$1000 and give several options to look at.

First for subs:

Mordaunt Short Aviano 7 $288

NXG NX-BAS-500 ~$250

These two are probably some of the best sub $300 subs out there. Currently the NXG is out of stock and unfortunately I don't think anyone knows when it'll be restocked but if you're in no hurry, it's something to look at.

Right now, Outlaw has a sale going on on their subs, the LFM-1 Plus is sitting at $449 w/ free ground shipping ($171 off). This is a heck of a deal and probably the one I'll suggest you get, down side is that the sale is probably just through Monday so it would be a quick decision.
http/www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1plus.html
https/www.outlawaudio.com/mofcart/blackfriday2014.html

HSU subs:
VTF-1 MK2 at $459 though currently on sale to $399

There's also SVS:
PB-1000 at $500
and if the PB, outlaw, and HSU subs are too large, there's the
SB-1000 for $500 too

I seriously suggest you look at the Outlaw, HSU, and SVS subs instead of going for the lesser priced subs. They are much more capable and also more accurate. As with any sub, placement is critical, but it'll be easier to get a smoother bass response them. The thing with bass frequencies is that they "see" all the open space and try to fill it which is different than mid to high where listening distance matters. This is why I'm suggesting these subs, depending on how much open space you have you should probably use larger and multiple subs, but this is a good place to start.

Out of these, the Outlaw would be the clear choice with the sale. It sounds like you have the room since you mentioned this is in an open basement. After that it'd be the PB-1000 then HSU, with the SB-1000 only if you simply need a small form factor.

For speakers I'm not familiar with the Pinnacle speakers, but if they are similar to the the Sony SS's, we can do better.
However, if your main complaint is a problem is clarity in the dialog, perhaps there is an acoustical problem going on (though it could very well be the speaker). If you can, can you provide a picture of you setup? Or at least describe where the center is located and surrounding items in good detail?

I have to get going here for alittle bit, but I should be back today to give a list of speaker suggestions.

 

[Chuck Finley]

...
For speakers I'm not familiar with the Pinnacle speakers, but if they are similar to the the Sony SS's, we can do better.
However, if your main complaint is a problem is clarity in the dialog, perhaps there is an acoustical problem going on (though it could very well be the speaker). If you can, can you provide a picture of you setup? Or at least describe where the center is located and surrounding items in good detail?
...

 

[Chuck Finley]

I listened to some speakers at Best Buy including the Pioneer SP-FS52, Sony SSCS3, Klipsch R-26F and R-28F. All but the R-28F were underwhelming. I think this had a lot to do with a poor receiver, setup, my phone, and all of the above. None of them except the R-28Fs seemed to be loud enough or have the clarity I was looking for. Even the R-28Fs were just ok. I bought them anyway to test them out since Best Buy has extended holiday returns.

I also impluse bought a Klipsch R-12SW because I got a decent deal on it. My initial reaction to the new sub when watching Spaceballs, Avengers, Machete Kills was that it was quite loud but very inaccurate and boomy. Perhaps I have it setup wrong or just need to make some adjustments like moving those pillows out of the corner and or moving the sub. It's connected via a single RCA cable to the white/mono/LFE port. The gain is set to half, phase is 0 degrees, and crossover is 180MHz/LFE/let the receiver decide.

What is the purpose of the right/red RCA jack? I've never seen an option for a left/right input on a receiver for a sub.

I think that sub is going back to best buy soon. I appreciate ien2222s suggestions on subs, but those are a bit pricey for me. Even the Klipsch I got for a decent deal was a bit much. I was/am seriously considering the Pioneer SW-8MK2 8" sub. For the price I've heard it's quite good.

I think going to craigslist might be my best choice. Any thoughts on a Miller & Kreisel MK V75MkII for $175?

 

[ien2222]

Hey, got kidnapped to help the parents decorate these past couple of days.

First the center, looking at the pictures I don't see anything that stands out as problematic. Heh, a lot of black with the center and console it's hard to tell on the picture, but make sure the face of the center sits just past the edge of the glass. If it's sitting back you'll have some reflections off the glass that will degrade the sound some, but it's probably just not a great center.

I forgot to ask this before, but did you use YPAO in you setup? Also, are your speakers set to small and what is the crossover set at?

L/R inputs is for when you don't have a dedicated line out for sub, so if you have a stereo pre-amp, you'd split the left and right singles so that it goes to both the sub, and amp that drives you mains.

The pioneer isn't as good as the Klipsch and I still recommend one of the subs I mentioned above. But for right now, play with the Klipsch some since you have it. Sub placement is critical, due to the nature of lower frequencies you'll have the Allison effect and boundary effect in play now. Without spending a few paragraphs describing them, I'll simply say that you're walls will give a boost to certain frequencies and cancellation to others in different amounts depending on the position of the listener in the room. It's most likely contributing to the boominess you're hearing in your old sub and the Klipsch.

So, what to do with it. The easiest way to pick a good spot is to do the "subwoofer crawl". What it amounts to is putting the sub in the main sitting position at ear level, put on some good material with some deep bass (music is usually best) that you are familiar with, then you get on the floor and crawl around the room with you ears at the sub level to see where it sounds best.

If there's no clear spot or if it's in an unreasonable place, mark off a few spots where it sounded good then place the sub it each and see which one will give you the best results. Put the sub in each spot and angle it towards the listening position, play around with placement alittle, adjusting it a few inches here and there and also the angle. Keep in mind that this spot is for the main listening position, you'll want to listen in the other seats to for the final placement, you may have to sacrifice a little bit of quality at the main seat to give a better overall sound throughout the listening area.

https/www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4o13mNmlaA

If you don't mind me asking, the Klipsch is a $450 sub, putting the price in line with the suggestions I made, how much did you get it for? And unfortunately I don't really know anything about the M&K Sub btw.

As for speakers, I'm not quite sure yet depends on what the budget is, but more importantly I think space for the center might be an issue. What's the max height on the center? With the plasma there it looks like about 7-8 inches, are you able to raise it a little?

 

[Chuck Finley]

I forgot to ask this before, but did you use YPAO in you setup? Also, are your speakers set to small and what is the crossover set at?

If you don't mind me asking, the Klipsch is a $450 sub, putting the price in line with the suggestions I made, how much did you get it for? And unfortunately I don't really know anything about the M&K Sub btw.

As for speakers, I'm not quite sure yet depends on what the budget is, but more importantly I think space for the center might be an issue. What's the max height on the center? With the plasma there it looks like about 7-8 inches, are you able to raise it a little?

Thanks for the reply. My brother seems to think the sub will sound better using a RCA splitter to combine the left/right signals. I think the sub is fine with one RCA cable plugged into the left/mono jack and the crossover set to LFE.

I used the YPAO mic multiple times when I first got the receiver. I set the speakers to large and had them set there for a while. I just read my receiver manual more closely the other day and saw that small is the default. I thought I should set the speakers to large since most of them could play down to 80Hz just fine. I set them all back to small the other day and set the crossover on the receiver to 100Hz for the sub. It seems to have made a little difference. I need some more listening tests to verify.

I got the sub for ~$250 and missed out on price matching it to $220 the other day.

My center channel is still set to +10dB (manually) because I have trouble hearing the dialogue as loud as the other portions of the movie. The YPAO setup also had difficulty setting the proper balance on the left/right channels. Listening in stereo only voices always seemed to be coming from the left. I set the balance a bit to the right and now the voices seem centered.

I cannot raise the center anymore without blocking the plasma [even with its huge bezel] or the projector. The top of the center channel is 27" from the ground. My ear level at listening position is ~40". I always thought that my ears were much lower. Never thought to measure. I think I'll try angling the center 15 degrees or so upwards and see if that makes a difference.

 

[ien2222]

No problem,

For the sub, no splitter is necessary. All that will happen if you do is you split the signal into two paths, and since this doesn't have a high band pass through on the RCA's, just inside the amp the two paths are merged back into one before hitting the crossover. $250 is a pretty good deal, at $450 the sub isn't really worth recommending as it hitting the price of the other subs that I mentioned and they are a good step or two above the Klipsch. However, at $250 it's a very good choice compared with other subs in that price range.

I'd suggest keeping it, as I mentioned in the above post the nature of low frequencies and how they interact with the room is most likely the largest problem right now, which will still be present even if you got a $2000+ sub. Positioning it correctly should help a lot, the next easiest thing is to add some porous bass traps to the room (though I'm not the best source for what to get or placement).

You'll want to set your speakers to small, not large. The large setting tells the AVR that your speakers can handle the full range ~20-20kHz+ which they can't. Having them at large means they were trying to play low frequencies they can't handle, and usually degrades the sound at moderate to high volumes and risks damaging the drivers.

As a side note, even if you end up with speakers at some point that can do full range, in a HT setting you'll still use the small setting with the crossovers set at 80hz. Usually the large setting is only used in 2.0 music playback with full range speakers.

The center. The tweeter should be at ear level, or at least pointed towards ear level. Angling it up a few degrees will probably help a little, but 13" below when the seating is 8-10ft will not be a huge difference. One thing you show know is that for movies, the sound mix isn't necessarily ideal for home, it's more designed for the theater environment. For a non-dedicated home theater setup most people run the center hot, usually in the +3-6dB range, +10 is on the high side though.

Odd that YPAO seemed to favor the left side, if anything I'd have expected the right instead. If the mic was somewhat leaning towards the right during the testing that could account for it, or if you picked the love seat as the main listening position. Was it favoring everything that was being playing in stereo?

It seems like the center just isn't going to work for you in a satisfactory way. Are willing to get a new front 3?