Roundup: DSLR and Lens-Changing Cameras

Status
Not open for further replies.

gyrodec

Distinguished
Jun 26, 2008
1
0
18,510
0
I've only read 2 pages but these guys don't know what they are talking about. SLRs were not "used mostly by professionals", there have been huge consumer sales of them for decades. Also, the D70 was not "the first truly affordable mass-market DSLR", it was a great camera (I wanted one when it came out), but the Canon D300 was clearly the "the first truly affordable mass-market DSLR". This review is a low point for Tom's. You guys are really getting a reputation for putting out fluff written by idiots. Get back to the old standards of quality, detailed, knowledgeable articals that made Tom's name rightly famous in the first place.
 

Tomsguiderachel

Distinguished
May 16, 2008
665
0
18,930
0
[citation][nom]gyrodec[/nom]I've only read 2 pages but these guys don't know what they are talking about. SLRs were not "used mostly by professionals", there have been huge consumer sales of them for decades. Also, the D70 was not "the first truly affordable mass-market DSLR", it was a great camera (I wanted one when it came out), but the Canon D300 was clearly the "the first truly affordable mass-market DSLR". This review is a low point for Tom's. You guys are really getting a reputation for putting out fluff written by idiots. Get back to the old standards of quality, detailed, knowledgeable articals that made Tom's name rightly famous in the first place.[/citation]
I'm not the writer of this piece, but I want to make sure we are "on the same page": "For a long time, SLRs were effectively the only digital cameras that used interchangeable lenses. Used mainly by professionals, they were expensive and difficult to master. Little by little, they've grown in popularity, with Canon's EOS 300D one of the first truly affordable digital SLRs released back in 2003."

Where did this article mention the D70? Apologies if I missed it but I would appreciate it if you could point it out.

Let's both of us go dig up sales and demographics data of SLRS from the past four decades, shall we? I think we'll probably both find that the majority of sales went to professional photographers. That doesn't mean that consumers didn't buy them in droves--it just means that the majority of sales went to professionals.

We appreciate your feedback and criticism, but if the two comments you made constitute a "low point" for this site, then you are perhaps the most critical reader we've ever had. Thanks.

Rachel Rosmarin
Editor, Tom's Guide
 

theuerkorn

Distinguished
Jan 30, 2009
170
0
18,630
0
Good overview suitable to the scope of this site. (Professionals and enthusiasts already look elsewhere, and from that perspective it's fine.) Odd mix of cameras though and a bit oversimplified at times, but fine for here. Nevertheless, what supports this statement: "Nikon's D90 ... A direct descendent of the legendary D70, the first truly affordable mass-market DSLR."? I mean that title is undoubtedly reserved for the Digital Rebel (300D), while the D70 was later and more expensive.
 

engrpiman

Distinguished
Mar 16, 2006
19
0
18,560
0
"After the Canon E-3 with its slightly disappointing semi-pro ambitions, Olympus is now finally moving to fill the hole that separted its top end reflex camera from its E-420 and E-520 amateur range."

you might want to change Canon to Olympus. As Olympus makes the E-3.
 

Tomsguiderachel

Distinguished
May 16, 2008
665
0
18,930
0
[citation][nom]engrpiman[/nom]"After the Canon E-3 with its slightly disappointing semi-pro ambitions, Olympus is now finally moving to fill the hole that separted its top end reflex camera from its E-420 and E-520 amateur range."you might want to change Canon to Olympus. As Olympus makes the E-3.[/citation]
Thank you!
 

joebob2000

Distinguished
Sep 20, 2006
525
0
18,930
0
[citation][nom]Tomsguiderachel[/nom]Let's both of us go dig up sales and demographics data of SLRS from the past four decades, shall we? I think we'll probably both find that the majority of sales went to professional photographers. That doesn't mean that consumers didn't buy them in droves--it just means that the majority of sales went to professionals.We appreciate your feedback and criticism, but if the two comments you made constitute a "low point" for this site, then you are perhaps the most critical reader we've ever had. Thanks.Rachel Rosmarin Editor, Tom's Guide[/citation]

Photography is like everything else in a consumerist society: For every professional there are a thousand people who will spend whatever it takes to act just like a professional. The SLR market has and always will owe a significant section of it's business to the purely consumer market, that is to say people who will never make a dime off the pictures they take. The difference between how people pick cameras coming from the consumer segment vs. the professional segment is something that is apparently lost on your writers. Picking a page at random (which, I felt like, committed about as much research to your article as your article did to Digital Photography,) I find a statement comparing an E-Volt to a Nikon D60 and a Canon 40D and this tells me all I need to know about the article: it's woefully uninformed.

When there are photography review sites by the dozen on the WWW, why does Tom's feel the need to push into this area? I would understand your angle if something were added to the mountains of reviews out there, like benchmarks on how well the camera/interface/software bundle work so that people concerned with PC based photo editing can read up on the pros/cons from each manufacturer.

I do share your affection for the 40D, but you neglected to review it directly-- Curious.
 

Tomsguiderachel

Distinguished
May 16, 2008
665
0
18,930
0
[citation][nom]joebob2000[/nom]Photography is like everything else in a consumerist society: For every professional there are a thousand people who will spend whatever it takes to act just like a professional. The SLR market has and always will owe a significant section of it's business to the purely consumer market, that is to say people who will never make a dime off the pictures they take. The difference between how people pick cameras coming from the consumer segment vs. the professional segment is something that is apparently lost on your writers. Picking a page at random (which, I felt like, committed about as much research to your article as your article did to Digital Photography,) I find a statement comparing an E-Volt to a Nikon D60 and a Canon 40D and this tells me all I need to know about the article: it's woefully uninformed.When there are photography review sites by the dozen on the WWW, why does Tom's feel the need to push into this area? I would understand your angle if something were added to the mountains of reviews out there, like benchmarks on how well the camera/interface/software bundle work so that people concerned with PC based photo editing can read up on the pros/cons from each manufacturer.I do share your affection for the 40D, but you neglected to review it directly-- Curious.[/citation]
We appreciate your input, Joebob. Do us a favor and tell us what you mean about the improper comparison of the E-Volt to the Nikon D60 and Cnon 40D--give us a sense of why this is highly inappropriate. That would be extremely useful.

As for why we bother to publish Camera roundups: Cameras are a huge consumer electronics category. We try to cover all consumer electronics categories on Tom's Guide. We don't do camera benchmarks, and in fact, I think we can all agree that this roundup here is not an incredibly thorough review. I'm the first to admit it, but the truth is that we're not aiming for hard-core camera reviews. We're aiming for basic, intro-level stuff. Do you think the basic level writeup is something that's been overdone on other sites? Personally, I don't. There's an audience for it, believe me. I hope that ultra camera-savvy readers of Tom's Guide can a) tolerate the fact that these articles are not for them, and b) not read them if they aren't of interest to them.

Thanks,

Rachel Rosmarin
Editor, Tom's Guide
 

cadder

Distinguished
Nov 17, 2008
240
0
18,840
1
I've used SLR's since I was in High School 40 years ago, so their use isn't (wasn't) restricted to professionals. I wonder why 2 Canon's, 2 Pentax, 3 Olympus were reviewed, but only 1 Nikon, and I wonder what audience this was aimed at. If this was aimed at people without SLR/DSLR experience, then they missed reviewing some of the more obvious cameras. If the article is aimed at more experienced people then it is of some interest although those people probably already know about the different cameras.
 

Tomsguiderachel

Distinguished
May 16, 2008
665
0
18,930
0
[citation][nom]cadder[/nom]I've used SLR's since I was in High School 40 years ago, so their use isn't (wasn't) restricted to professionals. I wonder why 2 Canon's, 2 Pentax, 3 Olympus were reviewed, but only 1 Nikon, and I wonder what audience this was aimed at. If this was aimed at people without SLR/DSLR experience, then they missed reviewing some of the more obvious cameras. If the article is aimed at more experienced people then it is of some interest although those people probably already know about the different cameras.[/citation]
Thanks Cadder. Nowhere in this article did we say SLRs are (or ever were) restricted to professionals. We simply made a claim that decades ago, the majority of users were professional (and many many other users were not professional!).

As for the intended audience--it is aimed at novices who are curious about the more-than-entry-level DSLRs out there. Stay tuned for a follow up article this week about the newest entry level DSLRs!
 
G

Guest

Guest
Okay, you say that this roundup is for novices about more-than-entry-level SLRs. What do you call D1000, E-420 and K-m if not entry level SLRs? They are the absolutely most affordable DSLRs on the market currently (plus Sony A200 and Nikon D60).

Like Joebob said, it's truly amazing you are comparing E-520 against D40.
 

Tomsguiderachel

Distinguished
May 16, 2008
665
0
18,930
0
Hi vvi,

So, yes, there are also also some entry-level DSlRs here. Is this a problem? Would you rather see 3 different reviews, broken into separate DSLR categories? We didn't choose to structure it that way.

Like I said to Joebob, I would love to here a concise reason why an E-520 and a D40 should never appear in a roundup together. Yes, they are cameras aimed at slightly different targets, but they are both DSLRs, and for the purpose of this review, that was the only criterion needed to be included in this roundup.
 

GeoMan

Distinguished
Aug 14, 2005
22
0
18,560
0
Yet another poor camera article from Toms Guide. It took you until the second paragraph to make your first mistake, sensor size has nothing to do with depth of field, that would be lens aperture.

Things go downhill from there. Super zoom lenses exist for SLR’s and compact super zoom lenses suffer considerably from distortion, chromatic aberration and poor resolving ability. Lenses do not suffer in low light. That would be the cameras focus engine and the sensors high ISO performance. Again, in this field SLR’s are significantly better than compacts.

The terminology used in a number of places in the article is also incorrect. High ISO settings suffer from increased sensor noise, dead pixels are things on monitors, hot pixels are things on camera sensors.

“Canon has yet to develop a system to account for the various chromatic distortions that various lenses are known to produce.” Except for the software that you mention in the next paragraph. The 500D sensor has micro lenses just like the 50D’s and no mention of its HD video capture? Next gripe is the same and mentioned by gyrodec, nuf said. As for the rest of the D90 review, I hope you got paid by Nikon for that advertising, it truly is a wonderful camera but you could have been a lot more objective about the language used. You say the Nikon D90 has to face up to the Canon 40D, but that the poor old 40D is a generation to old. So how does it match up to,… oh I don’t know, lets possibly try compare it to the very real and current canon 50D? The D90 is not the only camera in the review to shoot HD video.

The Olympus E-30 is not the only camera to have a moving screen, how about the Sony A350… Hang on, how about any Sony, why no love for Sony in this little round up of yours? Same for the Pentax KD20 and Canon 50D, you mention them a couple times, but no page for them either?

This is the point where I give up on the whole thing and go to bed, Toms editorial team, you are capable of so much more than this!
 

Tomsguiderachel

Distinguished
May 16, 2008
665
0
18,930
0
Geoman,

Thanks for your comments! I will attempt to get answers for your first four criticisms. I've noticed a lot of you have questions about why we included this camera but not that camera, why we didn't include every camera on the market, etc. The answer is simple: we didn't get review units of the cameras that are missing. We don't have the budget to go purchase every camera on the market to fill up the roundup. You probably want to visit another site if you are looking for the most thorough spec list and deep listing of every single DSLR on the market. You won't find it from us. We test the products that are available to us.

Thanks for reading,
Rachel Rosmarin
Editor, Tom's Guide
 

GeoMan

Distinguished
Aug 14, 2005
22
0
18,560
0
Tom’s writers keep insinuating that DSLR’s are for professionals only, but that things might just be changing now. This has not been the case for quite some time, not since the Canon 300D over 6 years ago. I invite Tomsguiderachel to go and do some responsible journalism, please go and research how many D50-D90’s and 300D-500D’s have been sold compared to D2&3’s or 1D’s, then consider whether DSLR’s are for professionals only. DSLR’s are not complicated, if you don’t have a clue how a camera works, turn the dial on top to the green camera icon, look through the eye piece at something you want to take a photo of, press the button that naturally falls under your right index finger, job done. If you want to take better pictures read the manual that came with the camera, you can limit it to the chapters with setting shutter speed, aperture and setting ISO, that shouldn’t take more than an hour or two, and doesn’t require a degree in the physics of light. Just because professionals use DSLR’s does not mean DSLR’s are for professionals only. Tomsguiderachel, please do your job as editor and make sure that articles that are published are accurate, unbiased and of an appropriate standard for Toms Guide.

I may be picking on the wrong person, but you seem to be the only person from Toms following up on our comments and your profile say’s you are editor of Tom’s Guide.
 

Tomsguiderachel

Distinguished
May 16, 2008
665
0
18,930
0
Hi Geoman,

Please forgive me, but I don't see where in the article it ever insinuated that DSLRs are for professionals only. Since so many readers have brought up this point and made this claim, I'm realizing that I must have simply missed that when I read this article. Please point out what page it is on, and then we can get to the sales data.

Thanks. Don't worry you're not picking on me--this is what I'm here for--to discuss these articles with you.

Rachel
 

GeoMan

Distinguished
Aug 14, 2005
22
0
18,560
0
OK, I guess it’s time for me to stop picking holes in your guy’s work and give some constructive comments.

Add a little more quantifiable data to the review, it doesn’t have to make the review more complicated, but a bit more data would be appreciated.

Keep review’s and camera comparisons limited to a single market segment, otherwise comparisons aren’t relevant and review just have to much to cover.

I feel that your DSLR reviews are aimed to low, the kind of people who are buying DSLR’s tend to have done a bit of reading on how cameras work and want a bit more of an analytical approach to camera articles.

Personally I’d like to see more quantifiable parts to these reviews like noise or resolution, so if you do a round up article like this I can see what cameras perform best in which areas by the numbers. Sure having a page to each camera with non-quantifiable stuff like control layout and camera feels is also vital, but some hard numbers would be a welcome addition.

In the reply to another comment, something you mentioned was splitting this review into a number of different reviews, and yes I think that should have been done, this also ties in to joebob2000’s comments. You compare cameras in different segments and from different generations to each other, which isn’t a valid thing to do. If these were CPU’s that would be like comparing a 6 year old Celeron to a Core i7 and concluding that the i7 is better. Of course it’s better, but it’s a silly comparison to make in the first place. Generally the DSLR market is broken into entry level, mid entry level, mid level, prosumer and pro levels (ok, people will always argue about the what levels there really are but you get the idea) and comparing cameras between these groups will generally get you criticized. So do roundup articles like this in one market segment at a time.

If people want to step up from compacts to DSLR’s and want a bit more info before they do, maybe Toms guides needs to do some actual guides. Articles like the difference between compacts and DSLR’s and getting more out of your DSLR that could cover things like sensor noise, the advantages/disadvantages of different types of lenses like wide angles or telephoto lenses, like field of view, depth of field and perspective. Help get more information to people instead drop the level of all your articles.

The articles themselves need a bit more fact and spell checking to. I only read the first couple of pages and I’ve already given you the list of errors I found, and I’m by no means an expert in the field and I’m dyslexic, so you should be able to do better than me :)

For the Professionals comments articles titles like “Canon EOS 5D Mark II: Amateurs Need Not Apply”, paragraphs headed “Professional Use Only?” and comments like “For a long time, SLRs were effectively the only digital cameras that used interchangeable lenses. Used mainly by professionals, they were expensive and difficult to master.” You never overtly say DSLR’s are only for professionals but it gives your readers the distinct impression that you think DSLR’s are, or were until only recently for professionals.

Finally if you’re going to leave something out, like the Sony’s in this review, tell us that at the beginning, and give us a reason. I won’t bash you for leaving something out if you have a decent reason for leaving it out.

I hope you guy’s find this a little more constructive than my previous tirades :)
 

xophaser

Distinguished
Jun 9, 2007
82
0
18,580
0
"Professional Use Only?

For a long time, SLRs were effectively the only digital cameras that used interchangeable lenses. Used mainly by professionals, they were expensive and difficult to master. Little by little, they've grown in popularity, with Canon's EOS 300D one of the first truly affordable digital SLRs released back in 2003."

This is the paragraph that is getting people reactions. I too felt it sounded miss-leading or awkward, since I got a Nikon slr N40 in college as a architect student and now a nikon D40 as a hobby as an architect. DSLRs nor SLRs would never still be in business if only professional bought them. Professional account for less then 1% of the population. This is not a major issue, readers like myself are not use to tomguide reviewing dslr like computer.

I been reading Tomguide (or tomhardwareguide) for a while. It was once focus mainly on computer hardwares, some accessories, talks of computer chips and memory like the other site xbit. Also, overclocking cpu and windows' items. Now that tomguide has become bigger it seem to branch into cameras and other electronics like cnet reviews. For hardcore camera's reviews I do check out dpreview and cnet. For computer hardware reviews tomhardwareguide is still one of the best. Laptop reviews: notebookcheck.

It takes time to get a loyal followings for new types of reviews when you branch off a little. The DSLR reviews are comprehensive, but a little different then other DLSR reviews. Also many of these cameras has been out and reviewed long time before this article. Which will lead readers to be subjective.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J Digital Cameras 4
S Digital Cameras 1
I Digital Cameras 1
N Digital Cameras 2
N Digital Cameras 2
S Digital Cameras 2
D Digital Cameras 8
M Digital Cameras 2
A Digital Cameras 0
A Digital Cameras 0
G Digital Cameras 0
G Digital Cameras 14
G Digital Cameras 5
G Digital Cameras 5
G Digital Cameras 40
G Digital Cameras 6
G Digital Cameras 10
G Digital Cameras 3
G Digital Cameras 4
G Digital Cameras 0

ASK THE COMMUNITY