The Cost Of The Smart Grid: $476 Billion

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mikem_90

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Okay... Society will be willing to pay for it, as long as the power utilities are going to be regulated again. You want something from us, you gotta give in return. No more free record profits and high prices for customers.

Deal?
 

PhilFrisbie

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I just had smart meters installed for my electric and natural gas meters. Already the extra radio interference has reduced the WiFi coverage inside my home, and I will be REALLY upset if some hacker decides to power down all the meters in my neighborhood or doubles the readings for fun!
 

BulkZerker

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I have a better idea. No!

You got your lines thrown up in the 30-40s on the govt's dollar this time -you- pay for it. Running a buissness costs money no free ride... though I will accept the prices staying the same for 10 years as well. Because after a few years it'll pay for itself, and then you can just npt charge more because of inflatioun screwing with the value of the dollar.
 

nebun

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i believe that when we pay our power bill the electrical companies do make a profit...they should put the profit to the upgrading of grid system...problem solved :)
 

the associate

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[citation][nom]nebun[/nom]i believe that when we pay our power bill the electrical companies do make a profit...they should put the profit to the upgrading of grid system...problem solved[/citation]

That's why you don't run things, your not heavily influenced by greed and believe in progress for humanity. We've had the means to create free electricity for quite some time now, but they keep it under the rug basically. Why? Cause their stupid to realize that making us pay the same as tax dollars will make them richer and benifit everyone anyways.
 

greliu

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476 billion in the large picture isn't very much. But, as far as payment, I'm with the associate. Companies should have to pay into this a little bit, because it seems lately (at least here in the States) in order for something to be update, no matter what it is, it should always be the tax-payer. Oh, and with a new grid, I want cheaper prices, since it's going to cut the cost in production and the amount of energy used :)
 

doeboy

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476 billion is a lot of money in an economy that is based off almost 0 interest rate and huge amounts of liquidity printed by the fed and put into the market. How about we stop printing money and allow the currency to rise in value thus costing less? You think the current national debt is bad wait till interest rates rise.
 

memadmax

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I don't know how trying to make a living and a profit while running a successful business is some how considered "greed" like the associate insinuates....

But I do know that a smart grid, if mandated by the government, will be paid for by the gov and the utilities and the taxpayers.... otherwise known as *You*....

So lets look at it from the other side shall we?
Do we need a smart grid?
The answer is a resounding NO!

Here's why: we already have basically a smart grid..... You have automatic load balance/overload, fuse blocks, etc etc. And generally, you have a dispatcher controlling and overlooking the whole works, similar to the controller of a major train depot.
Point being: The system works. And has worked well for decades.
When was the last time that you have lost power due to a grid related problem?
The key words in that question is grid related.... How about lost power due to a nature problem? Lost power due to a overload in the summer? Lost power due to a power company dispute? I can say yes to the last three questions, and most people can as well.

So why a smart grid? It's about political control, it sounds cool, and it comes from France.... literally. People in France can afford it because the majority of their power comes from cheap nuclear power plants.... The majority of our power comes from dirty nasty mean expensive coal.
Liberals in the liberal stronghold of california also want a smart grid because they think it will prevent the blackouts of 2006/07. But the real problem back then was a power company dispute, not a power grid.

So, what does it boil down to? The grid is fine, its another liberal power grab....

The End.

Oh, and I worked in the power generation business for many years before, before you call me an idiot......
 

dragonsqrrl

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[citation][nom]greliu[/nom]476 billion in the large picture isn't very much. But, as far as payment, I'm with the associate. Companies should have to pay into this a little bit, because it seems lately (at least here in the States) in order for something to be update, no matter what it is, it should always be the tax-payer. Oh, and with a new grid, I want cheaper prices, since it's going to cut the cost in production and the amount of energy used[/citation]
Agreed, 476 billion isn't very much. When you factor in the annual spending budget and GDP of the US, which most people probably aren't familiar with, 476 billion over the course of almost 2 decades isn't a lot to ask when you consider the current state of our power infrastructure, and the potential benefits from the upgrades. It's something that's going to have to be done eventually, and the price of implementation is only going to increase with time, so we should start sooner rather then later. The people who are shocked by the 476 billion price tag for an extensive nation wide grid upgrade are probably the same people who think 10% of the budget is spent on public broadcasting.
 

dragonsqrrl

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[citation][nom]memadmax[/nom]Point being: The system works. And has worked well for decades.
When was the last time that you have lost power due to a grid related problem?[/citation]
Do you recall the massive North East outage a couple years ago?
[citation][nom]memadmax[/nom]Here's why: we already have basically a smart grid..... You have automatic load balance/overload, fuse blocks, etc etc. And generally, you have a dispatcher controlling and overlooking the whole works, similar to the controller of a major train depot. [/citation]
It honestly doesn't sound like you have even a general understanding of what a smart grid is, or why it might be necessary decades down the road.
[citation][nom]memadmax[/nom]Oh, and I worked in the power generation business for many years before, before you call me an idiot......[/citation]
This makes me even more concerned... if you don't mind, can I ask what exactly your profession was in the "power generation business".
 

sseyler

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[citation][nom]memadmax[/nom]I don't know how trying to make a living and a profit while running a successful business is some how considered "greed" like the associate insinuates....But I do know that a smart grid, if mandated by the government, will be paid for by the gov and the utilities and the taxpayers.... otherwise known as *You*....So lets look at it from the other side shall we?Do we need a smart grid?The answer is a resounding NO!Here's why: we already have basically a smart grid..... You have automatic load balance/overload, fuse blocks, etc etc. And generally, you have a dispatcher controlling and overlooking the whole works, similar to the controller of a major train depot. Point being: The system works. And has worked well for decades.When was the last time that you have lost power due to a grid related problem?The key words in that question is grid related.... How about lost power due to a nature problem? Lost power due to a overload in the summer? Lost power due to a power company dispute? I can say yes to the last three questions, and most people can as well.So why a smart grid? It's about political control, it sounds cool, and it comes from France.... literally. People in France can afford it because the majority of their power comes from cheap nuclear power plants.... The majority of our power comes from dirty nasty mean expensive coal.Liberals in the liberal stronghold of california also want a smart grid because they think it will prevent the blackouts of 2006/07. But the real problem back then was a power company dispute, not a power grid.So, what does it boil down to? The grid is fine, its another liberal power grab....The End.Oh, and I worked in the power generation business for many years before, before you call me an idiot......[/citation]

The things you listed are very basic requirements for a power grid. Smart grids many new technologies, most designed to accommodate increasingly numerous sources of renewable, but intermittent (due to sunlight, wind, etc.) power.

You're an idiot.
 

growup

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In three years, Cyberdyne will become the largest supplier of military computer systems. All stealth bombers are upgraded with Cyberdyne computers, becoming fully unmanned. Afterwards, they fly with a perfect operational record. The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes online on August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware 2:14 AM, Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug.
 

maestintaolius

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[citation][nom]BulkZerker[/nom]I have a better idea. No!You got your lines thrown up in the 30-40s on the govt's dollar this time -you- pay for it. Running a buissness costs money no free ride... though I will accept the prices staying the same for 10 years as well. Because after a few years it'll pay for itself, and then you can just npt charge more because of inflatioun screwing with the value of the dollar.[/citation]
"but! but! you're doing it for the sports teams!!!! we want free money too!!!!" says the utility

*@%@#$ you MN state legislature.
 

memadmax

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dragon:
Do you recall the massive North East outage a couple years ago?
Yes. A single step up transformer failed due to *Overloading*. Causing a cascade overload effect due to too much load being put on not enough power plants. The grid itself had nothing to do with it, it actually did its job right. The solution to that problem is more power plants on the line to share the load.....

It honestly doesn't sound like you have even a general understanding of what a smart grid is, or why it might be necessary decades down the road.
I do have a general understanding of what a smart grid is. It has nice points on paper that don't apply to us here in the US. Let me use the article as a reference so me and you are seeing the same exact thing:
1. Lower cost for energy delivery: How? Lets use an example here. Say we need to send 500 kV(typical power of overhead lines) of power down a 500 mile stretch of power line, (which quite a few of the smaller power companies do by the way). Now lets say you lose 100 kV of power down that line due to resistance.... how is the smart grid going to fix that? It can't. We as payers have to pay for that loss no matter what.... Basic law of economics... it's like having a basket of oranges and some don't get sold because they went bad.... We have to eat the price of those bad oranges because the seller has to make up for the lost income somehow.....

2.greater energy capacity that is achieved through greater efficiency and fewer outages. How? You can't create electricity out of thin air. The only way you are gonna get greater capacity is by building more power plants..... You may recover some of the loss from number 1 above if you turned each overhead power line into a superconducting, super cooled power line, but that ain't gonna happen because for one, its dumb, and two it's expensive.... And another point that I want to make is any power grid does not *store* electricity thereby creating "capacity"...... doesn't happen. Power plants make "capacity".

3.enhanced security. This one I know they are trying to create the hacker "boogeyman" that comes in from china and blacks out the entire united states. Can not, and will not happen with our current grid. It *Will* if you computerize the entire thing with the "smart grid" theory.... The last I heard, it still requires a man or woman to physically push a button or open that valve in order to bring a generator on the line, the way it should be...

4.improved quality of life, safety as well as greater consumer productivity. How? How does it make our life better when power is ALREADY on nearly 24/7 365? This statement is just ridiculous, and stinks of libtard dreams.....

This makes me even more concerned... if you don't mind, can I ask what exactly your profession was in the "power generation business".
I first started off in the Navy, worked on an old oil fired steam plant that was over 30 years old at the time, but the technology was over a hundred years old. Want to know how many electronic gadgets we had to control the "smart steam plant, including the smart steam generators?" none. We only had electronic controls on the boiler because people were lazy and didn't want to turn a valve everytime there was a bell change....
After my time in the navy I went on to rebuild turbines, then transformers, as a specialty with a subcontractor all over the US. Then I switched careers into computers which I had been involved with since I was 12 and the BBS/9600 baud modem days.... good times....

There, happy? No you won't because you blindly follow whatever is said by the gov ment like blind sheeple. Wake up... Do your own research and use common sense...

The End.
 
G

Guest

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Xcel started installing a smart grid in Boulder, CO. Their original estimate was around $15M. When they finished it was"whoops, we lied, uh, were wrong". It was actually around $44M. This was just Xcel's part in the $100M project.

Rule of thumb: Any gov't project will cost at least 3x what they tell you.

I feel sorry for that Society dude having to pay for this.
 

dragonsqrrl

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[citation][nom]memadmax[/nom] It has nice points on paper that don't apply to us here in the US. Let me use the article as a reference so me and you are seeing the same exact thing:1. Lower cost for energy delivery: How? Lets use an example here. Say we need to send 500 kV(typical power of overhead lines) of power down a 500 mile stretch of power line, (which quite a few of the smaller power companies do by the way). Now lets say you lose 100 kV of power down that line due to resistance.... how is the smart grid going to fix that? It can't. We as payers have to pay for that loss no matter what.... Basic law of economics... it's like having a basket of oranges and some don't get sold because they went bad.... We have to eat the price of those bad oranges because the seller has to make up for the lost income somehow.....2.greater energy capacity that is achieved through greater efficiency and fewer outages. How? You can't create electricity out of thin air. The only way you are gonna get greater capacity is by building more power plants..... You may recover some of the loss from number 1 above if you turned each overhead power line into a superconducting, super cooled power line, but that ain't gonna happen because for one, its dumb, and two it's expensive.... And another point that I want to make is any power grid does not *store* electricity thereby creating "capacity"...... doesn't happen. Power plants make "capacity".3.enhanced security. This one I know they are trying to create the hacker "boogeyman" that comes in from china and blacks out the entire united states. Can not, and will not happen with our current grid. It *Will* if you computerize the entire thing with the "smart grid" theory.... The last I heard, it still requires a man or woman to physically push a button or open that valve in order to bring a generator on the line, the way it should be...4.improved quality of life, safety as well as greater consumer productivity. How? How does it make our life better when power is ALREADY on nearly 24/7 365? This statement is just ridiculous, and stinks of libtard dreams.....[/citation]
Again you don't seem to understand the general concept behind a smart grid. The benefits don't come from trying to make a "500 mile stretch of power line" less resistant. You also seem to be mixing up two key terms that are interrelated but distinct, an efficient grid, and a smart grid. A smart grid is built on top of an existing grid, and incorporates digital two way communication between power production, transmission, distribution and consumption (the user) making the the whole system more dynamic and adaptable. And like sseyler said earlier, these enhancements will be necessary to better utilize emerging renewable sources of power such as wind and solar, neither of which are capable of producing constant steady power. Until you can argue the points that are actually related to what a smart grid is and isn't capable of doing, I suggest you spend less time going on multi-paragraph rants about concepts you don't seem to be capable of wrap your head around.
[citation][nom]memadmax[/nom]There, happy? No you won't because you blindly follow whatever is said by the gov ment like blind sheeple. Wake up... Do your own research and use common sense...[/citation]
Oh, and switching news sources couldn't hurt either (I'm guessing fox right?), I tend to watch the News Hour, highly recommended.
 

memadmax

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Dragon, computerizing the grid gives no benefits except the benefit of having more things to break and a doorway for real "hackers" to shutdown things. The was the whole point of my droning on and on and on about this, to BACK up my claim.....

And I read huffington post too.....
 
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