Bulding a DAW.. how about these components?

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:10:53 +0100, Laurence Payne
<l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>>On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:34:40 GMT, Ally888@nospamxyz.com (Ally) wrote:
>>
>>>IDE cables:
>>>Round IDE cable Ata133 x3
>>
>>I think round IDE cables have now been debunked as a fad that actually
>>DECREASES performance. Use the flat ones. Or what have you got
>>against SATA? There's little if any price difference now.

I also hear opinions that SATA is not yet as reliable as ATA.

Ally

 

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"Ally" <Ally888@nospamxyz.com> wrote in message
news:4100b3aa.2911924@news.individual.net
> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:10:53 +0100, Laurence Payne
> <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:34:40 GMT, Ally888@nospamxyz.com (Ally)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> IDE cables:
>>>> Round IDE cable Ata133 x3
>>>
>>> I think round IDE cables have now been debunked as a fad that
>>> actually DECREASES performance. Use the flat ones. Or what
>>> have you got against SATA? There's little if any price difference
>>> now.

> I also hear opinions that SATA is not yet as reliable as ATA.

The connectors are more fragile than their predecessors.

 

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On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:00:02 GMT,
glenzabr@xmission.nospammersallowed.com (GMAN) wrote:

>>In article <4100a94f.260728@news.individual.net>, Ally888@nospamxyz.com wrote:
>>>On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:14:26 GMT,
>>>glenzabr@xmission.nospammersallowed.com (GMAN) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Nonsense, most round IDE cable are just flat 80 conductor cabling folded up
>>>>>nicely into a rounded housing.
>>>
>>>Thanks for the comment. Indeed, that is what the ones I ordered appear
>>>to be. That's a relief!
>>>
>>>Ally
>>IMHO i consider them better than flat since they usually have a foil
>>shielding under the tubing, at least mine did.

Thanks for that. I'll find out if mine are shielded when they arrive.
If so, I'll be delighted, because I read that most data errors
attributed to cables (flat or round) are caused by electro-magnetic
fields coming from *outside* the cables (from drives, etc)...

Ally

 

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On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:14:26 GMT,
glenzabr@xmission.nospammersallowed.com (GMAN) wrote:

>>Most round IDE cable do not qualify for ATA-133. Flat ribbon cable
>>will perform better but may give some problem with air flow.
>>You may think of serial ATA as lots of disks are now available.
>>>
>
>Nonsense, most round IDE cable are just flat 80 conductor cabling folded up
>nicely into a rounded housing.

Having carefully separated the 40 active strands with grounded ones,
they then roll them up to push them back into as close proximity as
possible. Some say this degrades performance.

 

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"Laurence Payne" <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
message news:6so1g0hvmmhki6klqmgjjk3e9nmrto1cvp@4ax.com
> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:14:26 GMT,
> glenzabr@xmission.nospammersallowed.com (GMAN) wrote:
>
>>> Most round IDE cable do not qualify for ATA-133. Flat ribbon cable
>>> will perform better but may give some problem with air flow.
>>> You may think of serial ATA as lots of disks are now available.
>>>>
>>
>> Nonsense, most round IDE cable are just flat 80 conductor cabling
>> folded up nicely into a rounded housing.

> Having carefully separated the 40 active strands with grounded ones,
> they then roll them up to push them back into as close proximity as
> possible. Some say this degrades performance.

The cables I've seen like this cut the cable into strips. But the results
are about the same. There should be some increase in capacitance.

 

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On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:10:10 GMT, Ally888@nospamxyz.com (Ally) wrote:

>>> Or what have you got
>>>against SATA? There's little if any price difference now.
>
>That suggests to me that it's not all it's cracked up to be... I think
>someone commented that hard drives are limited in speed by their
>mechanical limitations, regardless of whether ATA or SATA is being
>used. However, if someone had told me that in three years time ATA
>gear will be no longer available and everything will be SATA, then I
>would certailnly have paid the extra.


Suddenly you're subscribing to "more expensive is better"?

Yes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if parallel ATA goes the way of
the parallel printer port in 3 years. But that's a long time in
computing.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:

>"Laurence Payne" <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
>message news:6so1g0hvmmhki6klqmgjjk3e9nmrto1cvp@4ax.com
>> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:14:26 GMT,
>> glenzabr@xmission.nospammersallowed.com (GMAN) wrote:
>>
>>>> Most round IDE cable do not qualify for ATA-133. Flat ribbon cable
>>>> will perform better but may give some problem with air flow.
>>>> You may think of serial ATA as lots of disks are now available.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Nonsense, most round IDE cable are just flat 80 conductor cabling
>>> folded up nicely into a rounded housing.
>
>> Having carefully separated the 40 active strands with grounded ones,
>> they then roll them up to push them back into as close proximity as
>> possible. Some say this degrades performance.
>
>The cables I've seen like this cut the cable into strips. But the results
>are about the same. There should be some increase in capacitance.

Well, the transistors in the buffer chips must be able to source the
increased current required for the increased capacitance. Extra shielding
adds more capacitance. So the performance depends on both the board
(IDE controller) and the disk.

Norbert

 

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"Norbert Hahn" <hahn@hrzpub.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote in message
news:io42g0tk92svf0qn2u8gtv60l75u7458ik@4ax.com
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>> "Laurence Payne" <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
>> message news:6so1g0hvmmhki6klqmgjjk3e9nmrto1cvp@4ax.com
>>> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:14:26 GMT,
>>> glenzabr@xmission.nospammersallowed.com (GMAN) wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Most round IDE cable do not qualify for ATA-133. Flat ribbon cable
>>>>> will perform better but may give some problem with air flow.
>>>>> You may think of serial ATA as lots of disks are now available.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nonsense, most round IDE cable are just flat 80 conductor cabling
>>>> folded up nicely into a rounded housing.
>>
>>> Having carefully separated the 40 active strands with grounded ones,
>>> they then roll them up to push them back into as close proximity as
>>> possible. Some say this degrades performance.
>>
>> The cables I've seen like this cut the cable into strips. But the
>> results are about the same. There should be some increase in
>> capacitance.

> Well, the transistors in the buffer chips must be able to source the
> increased current required for the increased capacitance.

Sure, I'm sure that most controllers have plenty of current margins.

> Extra shielding adds more capacitance.

IME the 80 wire cables provided better shielding than the old 40 wire cables
did.

>So the performance depends on both > the board (IDE controller) and the
disk.

Well, we're in the SATA era, so IDE cables are getting kinda moot.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Ally wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm building a DAW.
> Are the following parts all compatible and well-suited?
>
> motherboard:
> Abit NF7
> (V2.0 nForce2 Socket A 8xAGP LAN USB2 6 ch Sound DDR400 Memory)
>
> cpu:
> AMD Athlon XP2500 333FSB 512 L2 Cache Barton
>
> RAM:
> 256 DDR400 PC3200
>
> Hard drives:
> Seagate ST3120026A 120gb 7200rpm 8mb Cache Barracuda 7200.7 Plus - OEM
>
> Maxtor 6Y080P0 Plus 9 80Gb 7200rpm 8mb Cache ATA133 Hard Drive - OEM
>
> IDE cables:
> Round IDE cable Ata133 x3
>
> Finally, what wattage of PSU do I need?

Whatever hard drive you decide on, you will need two - one for
OS/Applications, and one for audio data (installed on separate IDE
channels). As you will doubtlessly be adding a CD/DVD writer ( on the same
IDE cahannel as the primary HDD) , I would suggest a PSU of at least 350W
capacity.

And I've heard that the flat ribbons are better than the trendy 'round' IDE
cables.

geoff

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:38:41 +1200, "Geoff Wood"
<geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:

>Whatever hard drive you decide on, you will need two - one for
>OS/Applications, and one for audio data (installed on separate IDE
>channels). As you will doubtlessly be adding a CD/DVD writer ( on the same
>IDE cahannel as the primary HDD) , I would suggest a PSU of at least 350W
>capacity.

Why? After protracted argument elsewhere, we've established that
when LOADING a recording application, Windows may readjust the part of
paged memory which is dumped to disk. But there's no evidence that,
on a computer with sufficient memory installed, there will be
continual access of the hard drives by Windows or the application,
other than to stream audio data.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Ally wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:14:26 GMT,
> glenzabr@xmission.nospammersallowed.com (GMAN) wrote:
>
>>> Nonsense, most round IDE cable are just flat 80 conductor cabling
>>> folded up nicely into a rounded housing.
>
> Thanks for the comment. Indeed, that is what the ones I ordered appear
> to be. That's a relief!

But coiled potential DOES increase crosstalk in comparison with flattened.

geoff

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:10:10 GMT, Ally888@nospamxyz.com (Ally) wrote:
>
>>>> Or what have you got
>>>> against SATA? There's little if any price difference now.
>>
>> That suggests to me that it's not all it's cracked up to be... I
>> think someone commented that hard drives are limited in speed by
>> their mechanical limitations, regardless of whether ATA or SATA is
>> being used. However, if someone had told me that in three years time
>> ATA gear will be no longer available and everything will be SATA,
>> then I would certailnly have paid the extra.
>
>
> Suddenly you're subscribing to "more expensive is better"?
>
> Yes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if parallel ATA goes the way of
> the parallel printer port in 3 years. But that's a long time in
> computing.

Yeah, but then somebody will figure that if you put 8 SATA lines in
parallel, you can transfer a whole byte at 8 times the speed of one SATA
.....

;-)

geoff

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:38:41 +1200, "Geoff Wood"
> <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:
>
>> Whatever hard drive you decide on, you will need two - one for
>> OS/Applications, and one for audio data (installed on separate IDE
>> channels). As you will doubtlessly be adding a CD/DVD writer ( on
>> the same IDE cahannel as the primary HDD) , I would suggest a PSU of
>> at least 350W capacity.
>
> Why? After protracted argument elsewhere, we've established that
> when LOADING a recording application, Windows may readjust the part of
> paged memory which is dumped to disk. But there's no evidence that,
> on a computer with sufficient memory installed, there will be
> continual access of the hard drives by Windows or the application,
> other than to stream audio data.

1 - Some applications dymanically load and unload modules during recording,
especially if playing back trax at the same tiume.

2 - Neat and tidy.

geoff

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:49:25 +1200, "Geoff Wood"
<geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:

>1 - Some applications dymanically load and unload modules during recording,
>especially if playing back trax at the same tiume.

Really? Actually DURING RECORDING? What could an application
suddenly require half-way through a recording? We set up the effects
we need - then run the recording.

Have a look at what happens when you load an application. There's a
re-adjustment of what Windows kernel code needs to be in unpaged
memory.

Everything else loads into paged memory. There is the potential that
this may be dumped to disk, if RAM runs short. But this is really
ancient history. We design our DAW with sufficient RAM so that paging
to disk won't be required. This happened when we were running
programs in 16MB of memory, 15 years ago. Now we install amounts of
RAM that are huge compared to the size of program code. Paging to
disk just doesn't happen.

(Note that "unpaged memory" is a small region kept independent of
Windows' virtual memory system. Everything else is "paged memory".
But not paged to disk. Unless you're grossly low on physical memory.)

>
>2 - Neat and tidy.

More so than a folder or partition on the same drive?

 

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Laurence Payne wrote:
>
> Really? Actually DURING RECORDING? What could an application
> suddenly require half-way through a recording? We set up the effects
> we need - then run the recording.
>

Well I concede that you should really have all load, run, and unnecessary
services killed off, but most users don't.


>
> More so than a folder or partition on the same drive?

Yep. You can uplug the data drive, take it to another machine, and still
use both machines.

geoff

 

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On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:20:03 +1200, "Geoff Wood"
<geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:

>> More so than a folder or partition on the same drive?
>
>Yep. You can uplug the data drive, take it to another machine, and still
>use both machines.

I guess users who want to do this would buy an external Firewire drive
or the like? Preferable to constantly dismantling their computers.

 

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"Laurence Payne" <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
message news:mgl4g05c8ghjm6unk5ba769p44tn7uc4u9@4ax.com
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:20:03 +1200, "Geoff Wood"
> <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:
>
>>> More so than a folder or partition on the same drive?
>>
>> Yep. You can uplug the data drive, take it to another machine, and
>> still use both machines.
>
> I guess users who want to do this would buy an external Firewire drive
> or the like? Preferable to constantly dismantling their computers.

Yes, Firewire or USB-2 are the current solutions, and fine solutions they
are. I guess SATA's hot-plug feature (largely not implemented in equipment
on the market at this time) would make the third alternative.

Hot-plug SCSI is old news, and that would be the fourth (or is it first,
chronologically?) alternative.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:20:03 +1200, "Geoff Wood"
> <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:
>
>>> More so than a folder or partition on the same drive?
>>
>> Yep. You can uplug the data drive, take it to another machine, and
>> still use both machines.
>
> I guess users who want to do this would buy an external Firewire drive
> or the like? Preferable to constantly dismantling their computers.

I turn a key, pull a handle and withdraw the tray, and I'm away laughing.
Takes all of 3 seconds. No cables to lose.

geoff