DAT vs minidisc

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I find it rather strange-- or is it just me?-- that I can buy a 50 mm
rifle with which I could shoot down a Boeing 747 (at take-off), or
penetrate 1/2" steel plate, without much difficulty.

But if you buy a minidisk, it is assumed that you are trying to steal
music, and therefore hardware inhibit mechanisms must be built in to the
device before it can be allowed on the market.

Recording engineers need a better lobby.

Minidisks don't steal music. People steal music. Sure, get tough on
copyright pirates, but I should still be able to walk into a Best Buy,
in my recording engineer sweats, with my microphones and pre-amps strung
around my neck, and walk out with a minidisk no matter what the guy
behind the counter thinks.

Or do we need to register minidisk users?

Crabshell wrote:
> I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to make
> digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring albums and
> tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound and performance
> advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> -crabshell

 

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Bill Van Dyk wrote:
> Can you correct me if I'm wrong-- it appears to me that the new Hi-MD
> still records in a proprietary compression algorithym, but you are able
> to convert it to a wave file on your computer.

It just packages it uniquely. The data in the files is
truly uncompressed if that's how you record it. The utility
doesn't change the data but just the package around it from
their .omg file to the standard .wav file.

> If true, that would make it considerably less attractive as a medium,
> wouldn't it?

Sure would. There is still a gotcha. It is reported that
it will allow you to upload (or attempt to upload) only
twice before erasing your recording from the disc. Should
both uploads fail for whatever reason (system crash, power
outage, etc.) your recording is lost.

Come to think of it, though, I haven't actually heard anyone
who reports this problem say that they pulled the plug part
way through the attempts to see if the mark or "erasure"
occurs at the start of the transfer or after it is complete.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

 

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On 2005-01-14, Bill Van Dyk <trash@christian-horizons.org> wrote:
>
>
> I find it rather strange-- or is it just me?-- that I can buy a 50 mm
> rifle

50mm would be artillery, not a rifle. You must mean 50 calibre, also
known as (literally) "armed for bear".

> with which I could shoot down a Boeing 747 (at take-off), or
> penetrate 1/2" steel plate, without much difficulty.

Don't take for granted what it can do. When I say "armed for bear", I
mean it -- 50cal BMG is about what it takes to penetrate a bear skull.
12ga shotgun slug won't do it. .357 magnum won't do it. As far as
easily penetrating a 1/2" steel plate, again, don't bet your life on it.

> But if you buy a minidisk, it is assumed that you are trying to steal
> music, and therefore hardware inhibit mechanisms must be built in to the
> device before it can be allowed on the market.

I hate the way my minidisc recorder locks me out of my own music that I
have composed and performed. I don't think that's right, and in fact,
this damned machine has asserted control of my copyrighted materials. I
think I should be able to sue Sony over it.

 

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Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> writes:

> Bill Van Dyk wrote:
> > Can you correct me if I'm wrong-- it appears to me that the new Hi-MD
> > still records in a proprietary compression algorithym, but you are able
> > to convert it to a wave file on your computer.
>
> It just packages it uniquely. The data in the files is
> truly uncompressed if that's how you record it. The utility
> doesn't change the data but just the package around it from
> their .omg file to the standard .wav file.
>
> > If true, that would make it considerably less attractive as a medium,
> > wouldn't it?
>
> Sure would. There is still a gotcha. It is reported that
> it will allow you to upload (or attempt to upload) only
> twice before erasing your recording from the disc. Should
> both uploads fail for whatever reason (system crash, power
> outage, etc.) your recording is lost.
>
> Come to think of it, though, I haven't actually heard anyone
> who reports this problem say that they pulled the plug part
> way through the attempts to see if the mark or "erasure"
> occurs at the start of the transfer or after it is complete.
>
>
> Bob
> --
>
> "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
> simpler."
>
> A. Einstein

Dear Bob,

It is hard to defeat Sony's upload limit. Or any other DRM for that matter.
It seems to upload about 2/3 the way, then it access/writes the disc, then
continues. If you turn on write protect on the disc, the upload won't start
at all.

The simplest and safest way is to just do realtime transfers. Somehow, via
hardware or software, loopback the computer's sound signal from output to
input, use Sony's program to play the sound and run a second program to
capture.

This is realtime, but hey, DAT is no faster! I've tried the upload and then
the WAV converter, but they are not all that fast anyway. About twice the
speed of realtime. So I just go realtime and have zero risk of losing my
data.

By the way, I've just bought a used Nomad Jukebox 3, but I haven't even had a
chance to use it. The minidisc is just so convenient and portable. No
external power or preamps are needed.

Richard

 

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In article <87k6qf468c.fsf@uwaterloo.ca> Mannr@uwaterloo.ca writes:

> This is realtime, but hey, DAT is no faster! I've tried the upload and then
> the WAV converter, but they are not all that fast anyway. About twice the
> speed of realtime. So I just go realtime and have zero risk of losing my
> data.
>
> By the way, I've just bought a used Nomad Jukebox 3, but I haven't even had a
> chance to use it. The minidisc is just so convenient and portable. No
> external power or preamps are needed.

By that I take it you're using a mic that requires power that's
supplied from the Minidisk player. True, the Jukebox doesn't provide
"plug-in power" and it's a bit larger than a Minidisk, but I sure
can't complain about the battery life. There's nothing that
prevents file transfer of recordings in either direction other than
that you need their software to access it from a computer and unless
someone's come up with a Macintosh file transfer program, it's PC
only.

By the way, what's the media cost on the high resolution Minidisk? How
much time (uncompressed) can you record on a blank disk, and how much
do blanks cost? If they're cheap, you can just file them like
cassettes or CDs, but I don't think they're that cheap yet, so, like
with flash card recorders, you're probably compelled (by cost) to just
have a few disks and recycle them. Flash cards don't wear out (that we
know about anyway) but disks do.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

 

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Mike Rivers wrote:

>
> By the way, what's the media cost on the high resolution Minidisk? How
> much time (uncompressed) can you record on a blank disk, and how much
> do blanks cost? If they're cheap, you can just file them like
> cassettes or CDs, but I don't think they're that cheap yet, so, like
> with flash card recorders, you're probably compelled (by cost) to just
> have a few disks and recycle them. Flash cards don't wear out (that we
> know about anyway) but disks do.

They're $7.00 at J&R. For detailed info on capacity at
various record modes check out:

http/www.minidisc.org/hi-md_faq.html#_q93

For the FAQ main page see:

http/www.minidisc.org/hi-md_faq.html


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

 

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"Bill Van Dyk" <trash@christian-horizons.org> wrote in message
news:41E8397C.6000505@christian-horizons.org...
> Can you correct me if I'm wrong-- it appears to me that the new Hi-MD
> still records in a proprietary compression algorithym, but you are able to
> convert it to a wave file on your computer.
>
> If true, that would make it considerably less attractive as a medium,
> wouldn't it?

No, you are wrong. There is a linear PCM mode of operation.

geoff

 

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"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1105658621k@trad...
>...any DAT that you buy will be second-hand.
> These tend to not be maintained so you may have a couple of hundred
> bucks worth of refurbishment before you can get full performance out
> of it. That's a point against DAT.

A more important one is that for the past five years the only new DAT tapes
that have been of high enough quality to not light up my Sony 7030's error
lights like a Christmas tree have been made by Fuji. Now that DAT is no
longer a major computer backup format while remaining among the most
expensive, there is a serious question of reliable DAT tape stock remaining
available.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http/www.hyperback.com

 

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On 2005-01-15, Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:

>> Flash cards don't wear out (that we
>> know about anyway) but disks do.

Flash memory does have a limit on writes. It's not usually a practical
issue, but it is enough of a consideration to be a certification problem
for flash devices in aviation electronics.

 

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mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) writes:

> In article <87k6qf468c.fsf@uwaterloo.ca> Mannr@uwaterloo.ca writes:
>
> > This is realtime, but hey, DAT is no faster! I've tried the upload and then
> > the WAV converter, but they are not all that fast anyway. About twice the
> > speed of realtime. So I just go realtime and have zero risk of losing my
> > data.
> >
> > By the way, I've just bought a used Nomad Jukebox 3, but I haven't even had a
> > chance to use it. The minidisc is just so convenient and portable. No
> > external power or preamps are needed.
>
> By that I take it you're using a mic that requires power that's
> supplied from the Minidisk player. True, the Jukebox doesn't provide
> "plug-in power" and it's a bit larger than a Minidisk, but I sure
> can't complain about the battery life. There's nothing that

Battery life is about two to three hours of PCM recording on a single NiMH AA
cell. The main advantage of MD is that I can carry a bunch of AA cells in my
pocket and replace the battery each time I change media. This is great for
festivals, etc, where you may record all day.

> prevents file transfer of recordings in either direction other than
> that you need their software to access it from a computer and unless
> someone's come up with a Macintosh file transfer program, it's PC
> only.
>

I'm using electret mics (AT853), with a self-made battery power circuit. I
plug these mics into mic in on the minidisc. I don't think there is enough
gain on the line input of the Jukebox to take these. I'm planning on using an
external preamp and A/D (Edirol UA5) but have not got around to this yet.
Minidisc is just too convenient for now.

> By the way, what's the media cost on the high resolution Minidisk? How
> much time (uncompressed) can you record on a blank disk, and how much
> do blanks cost? If they're cheap, you can just file them like
> cassettes or CDs, but I don't think they're that cheap yet, so, like
> with flash card recorders, you're probably compelled (by cost) to just
> have a few disks and recycle them. Flash cards don't wear out (that we
> know about anyway) but disks do.
>
>

High capacity disks are about $7 to $10. But you can record an unlimited
number of times. I've got four discs right now and I just keep cycling
through them. You can also buy lower density media for about $1 each. I use
these for playback of compressed material, pretty similar to MP3 I think. I
happen to like the removeable media more though.

> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Richard

 

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In article <87r7kkx3zp.fsf@uwaterloo.ca> Mannr@uwaterloo.ca writes:

> I'm using electret mics (AT853), with a self-made battery power circuit. I
> plug these mics into mic in on the minidisc. I don't think there is enough
> gain on the line input of the Jukebox to take these. I'm planning on using an
> external preamp and A/D (Edirol UA5) but have not got around to this yet.
> Minidisc is just too convenient for now.

I like a one-box solution. I don't think that a recorder, no matter
how tiny it is, is very convenient when you have to string it together
with an outbouard mic preamp and/or mic power supply.

> High capacity disks are about $7 to $10. But you can record an unlimited
> number of times. I've got four discs right now and I just keep cycling
> through them.

Is that enough to cover a day's worth of festival recording? Or two,
or three days? These tiny recorders are convenient for short term
projects, but eventually you have to unload them so you can re-use the
media. The nice thing about the Minidisk is that the recording media
is removable and storable. The not-so-nice thing is that its per-hour
cost is fairly high.

Choices and preferences.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo