Gaming laptops

[lostandwandering]

Quick question, don't mean to change topic: But simply is the DELL XPS 1710 SLI compatible? Can it hold 2 x 7950Gtx's?

No, it has enough trouble cooling one from what I've heard. The only laptops that are Sli capable are the ones that let you choose a second card in the configurator. If there is no option for a second card it is most likely not able to accept another one due to size or heat restrictions.

 

[nick2124]

However, keeping in mind that the GF8700M-GT specs are between those of the desktop GF8600GT and GF8600GTS (close to a GT XXX which runs at the same memory but 5mhz slower core), and that the GFGO7950GTX is just a bit better than the desktop GF7950GT and the GFGO7900GTX is bit worse

Really? I just looked at some 3dmark scores.

http/www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=854&am p;model2=710&chart=315

The 7950 GT scores in the 1800's which although is far ahead of other 7 series cards, and also ati 1800 series, it still lags far behind more high-end 8 series cards. The score of 1865 is nothing when compared to the 8800 GTX which has scores in the mid 3000's. (literally double the power of the 7950 GT.

So, if your saying a 7950 GTX (Laptop) is roughly the equivalent of a 7950GT (Desktop) (I'm assuming you know your facts, and that its true.) and the 8800 series (Desktop) is light years ahead of the 7950 GT/GTX (which I've just seen) - then would it be wise for someone who's considering purchasing a laptop soon to hold out until a 8800 card is out for laptops that is significantly faster than 7950GTX?

P.S
I'm very interested in knowing: What is the desktop equivalent of a 8600 GTS 512 meg ?

 

[Phrozt]

Yes.. the 8800 series would be ahead of the 7950 series... but the 8600 isn't anything CLOSE to the 8800.

If you spend a little bit of time in the THG graphics card forums, you'll quickly see that the 8600 (and below) was a HUUUUGE disappointment in comparison to the 8800. The 8800 was the flagship for nVidia this past (almost year now), and the 8600 was supposed to be the mainstream. Similarly, the 2900xt was ATI's flagship, and the 2600 and below range was supposed to be ATI's midrange. However it was quickly determined that the "midranges" for both companies operate horribly, and in many cases, older generations (like the 7950 series) blow these "mid range" cards away.

That's why the 7900 mobile series is (in theory) much better than the 8600 series.

 

[nick2124]

It is... That link you posted Phrozt (http/forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=39568) proves the superiority of 7950's. Even with all the 8 series cards (for laptops) out at the moment the 7950 GTX is still way ahead performance wise.

I've basically decided to buy a laptop that is 7950GTX SLI. Any suggestions which laptop model I should get? Clevo 900C looks like the best choice at the moment...

 

[nick2124]

http/www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40032

An article I just found where NVIDIA talks about their ambitions to bring 8800 to laptops.

 

[lostandwandering]

One thing to keep in mind is that many companies take 1 version of a laptop and rebrand them. That Clevo that I told you about is used by many companies (killernotebooks, alienware, voodoo?, and a few others). Basically you are buying the same laptop just with someone else's name on it. Be careful who you buy from, I had a mediocre experience with Sagernotebook.com. Also keep in mind that the cards used in the 900C are MXM cards which means that they are upgradeable and Mark (K|N owner) has been told that the 7950's should be replaceable with the newer cards.

One thing to keep in mind with the 8800M and the INQ hit it on the head:

these cuts will decrease 3D performance when compared to the desktop

. Will these cards be powerful? No doubt. Will they have the mind shattering power of the desktop ones? No, too much power needed and too much heat as a result. Never-the-less they will be excellent gaming cards.

Also, is anyone interested in seeing a Tom's user review of the Clevo M570u (aka the Sager NP5760)? If people are interested I wouldn't be adverse to writing one. I got my lappy last weak and am enjoying every minute of it.

 

[nick2124]

Mark (K|N owner) has been told that the 7950's should be replaceable with the newer cards.

I'm really glad to hear that. Does that mean I can get a DELL XPS 1710, and say 6 months later I can upgrade the 7950 to an 8800?

Your Sager looks nice. How much was it L&W?
512 meg 7900 GTX is the best card out for lappies right now. What games do you play it on?

And, you say a lot of brands will take 1 version of a laptop and rebrand them, my question is who makes the originals? (like the clevo 900c - was sager the original creator?)

 

[lostandwandering]

"Mark (K|N owner) has been told that the 7950's should be replaceable with the newer cards."

I'm really glad to hear that. Does that mean I can get a DELL XPS 1710, and say 6 months later I can upgrade the 7950 to an 8800?

Your Sager looks nice. How much was it L&W?
512 meg 7900 GTX is the best card out for lappies right now. What games do you play it on?

And, you say a lot of brands will take 1 version of a laptop and rebrand them, my question is who makes the originals? (like the clevo 900c - was sager the original creator?)

In theory, yes you can upgrade it. I know the Inspiron cards are upgradeable so I see no reason why the XPS ones can't be. If you talk to Mark, he can probably replace it for you and usually he will only charge you the difference of the cards.

I paid 2300 for my NP5760. Core2 T7200, 2gigs DDR2-667, 100gb 7200rpm HDD, 512mb 7950GTX, 17'' WUXGA, DVD+RW, and a TV-tuner. The screen on this thing is absolutely gorgeous. All in all it was a MUCH better deal than the XPS. The same system from Dell was close to 3 grand. I play BF2142 and COD2. Both play extremely well. BF is at 1400x900(or something like that) with med-high settings and I get no lag. COD2 is at 1280x1024 with 2x AA and I get 70-80 avg. FPS. It's a beautiful thing.

Clevo and Sager are one in the same company I believe. It is hard to say because I think Clevo is the original manu, but I look at sites like xoticpc.com and they all say it's Sager. So I think they are the same thing.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Really? I just looked at some 3dmark scores.

Don't bother, they are useless for what we're talking about here. 3Dmarks are for BestBuy shoppers and PR mongrels. Look at the specs, then look at the performance in games. 3Dmarks are only good for testing overclocks and stability within the same card.

So, if your saying a 7950 GTX (Laptop) is roughly the equivalent of a 7950GT (Desktop) (I'm assuming you know your facts, and that its true.)

Look at the architecture and specs, to check for yourself. Keep in mind we're talking about mobile parts so they have different CPU, RAM and HDD limitations.

and the 8800 series (Desktop) is light years ahead of the 7950 GT/GTX (which I've just seen) - then would it be wise for someone who's considering purchasing a laptop soon to hold out until a 8800 card is out for laptops that is significantly faster than 7950GTX?

Only if you think someone is going to magically get a 120-150W graphics card into a laptop version anytime soon. Even using 65nm (or heck even 55nm), anything with that many transistors and that kind of memory bandwidth is going to be power hungry. Expect something more along the lines of what the GF8800GS/HD2900Pro are expected to be in order to fit within the power/heat requirements of such a laptop. Even a desktop replacement qouls have to outfit itself with some wicked power regulation hardware and MoBo support to pull that off. We'll get to that level of performance, but not while the GF8800 series is still current.

P.S
I'm very interested in knowing: What is the desktop equivalent of a 8600 GTS 512 meg ?

You mean what is the laptop equivalent of that part? It doesn't exist yet, but the GFGO7900GTX is likely closest in performance likely outperforming the GTS-512 more oftne than not, with the exceptions already noted, but of course with many other differences too like I mentioned with HDR+AA, HQ AF, PureVideo2, etc.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

It is... That link you posted Phrozt (http/forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=39568) proves the superiority of 7950's. Even with all the 8 series cards (for laptops) out at the moment the 7950 GTX is still way ahead performance wise.

Except for the games the OP posted about, those would be the only areas where the gap is much smaller or reversed. And the feature set in Oblivion just compound that advantage for the GF8600/8700M, however like I said, in most other scenarios the GFGO79xx series should be the easy leader.

However getting SLi in your case, means little will get close to it for now.

An article I just found where NVIDIA talks about their ambitions to bring 8800 to laptops.

Yeah, and from that, I'd love someone to explain to me how they're going to fit anything even remotely resembling ANY currently shipping GF8800 into a laptop and have it only draw 22W? Like I said I suspect it to be closer to what we're thinking the GF8800GS to be, something 48-64 shader units and 256bit. Which will still be nice, but nowehere near even the GF8800GTS-320.

 

[nick2124]

Thanks LostAndWondering. Sounds nice.

Putting aside the price tag, do you feel your laptop is superior to the Dell 7950GTX? If so, how?

And is your lappy the equivalent of a clevo 570?

 

[nick2124]

Thanks GreatApe. You know your stuff.

 

[lostandwandering]

Thanks LostAndWondering. Sounds nice.

Putting aside the price tag, do you feel your laptop is superior to the Dell 7950GTX? If so, how?

And is your lappy the equivalent of a clevo 570?

My laptop is exactly the same as the Clevo 570u just under the Sager name.

To be honest, I think the XPS m1710 is bulky and ugly. I don't like the black and the red is too expensive. The 570 just looks so much more streamlined than the XPS. I think the base configuration was better than the Dell's but again that goes back to price. I have also heard that Dell underclocks the 7950 to avoid heat problems. I do not have conformation of that so don't take me for my word on that. Dell also has some issues with their LCD screens and light leak. From what I can tell I hardly have any leak at all. One thing to keep in mind is that the 570u no longer comes with the 7950. It has been replaced by the 570ru. The 570ru is black with orange trim and lacks the media controls that mine has (this model has the 7950 so no worries there).
http://www.clevo.com.tw/products/M570RU.asp
http://www.killernotebooks.com/executioner_sr/executioner_sr_gallery.html

K|N version of the 570ru

 

[nick2124]

Can anyone list the laptops that are 7950 GTX SLI?

 

[jetpilot79]

IT's not DX10, Oblivion is DX9. The only feature advantages the GF8 has over the GF7 would be the ability to run with HDR+AA and also the ability to use penalty free Higher quality AF. However the unified shader design with better branching than the previous generation seems to play very well with Oblivion switching easily from heavy pixel to heavy vertex loads. Oblivion is one of the only games that the GF86xx series design outperforms the GF79xx and even X19xx series, along with Stalker.

That's why I say that Oblivion would be one of the only titles where the GF8600/8700M series would give the GFGO79xx series a run for the money..

Thanks APE!, I dont know why those websites/articles never appeared in my previous searches. I checked out all those articles and slogged my way through some of the techie stuff that I will never have the patience to fully understand, ,,, and I have formed the following opinion...

The GF8600/8700 series may not "win" against the GF79xx series against the other games, but neither do they really "fail" MOST of the FPS differences seem too small to really be noticable, but hey, I dont really have a firm number for what constitutes good, as the one article says, it depends on the game (I am thinking at least 30 should appear to play fairly smooth.) Furthermore, The 8series have the future utility of future games, which will more fully utilize them.

I do, however, have a couple of other questions that occured to me.
Is it possible (and relatively simple) to change the RAID of the two identical toshiba x205 HDs to RAID 0 to increase their 5400 RPM performance?
Is it possible (and relatively simple/safe) to use nTune to overclock a laptop with no prior experience? I know TH goes over overclocking a bit.
What would you say is a comfortable FPS threshold for fast paced games that are popular right now? Is it comparable to monitor refresh rates?
I have been told that because of Vista's increase in bits (32/64 - vice - 16? for XP) eats up much more RAM. and that games actually perform worse on Vista systems, and that the best performance would occur on an XP system with the graphics driver running DX9, penny for your thoughts?

Supreme Commander is very CPU limited, so the difference in graphics shouldn't really be pronnounced until you reach the limits of the cards, so until you reach higher resolutions you'll be fine, but below 16x10 they'll be very similar. IMO you'd do very well with the X205, for those titles. In many other titles though the GF8700 will get beaten by a GFGO7900GTX and GFGO7950GTX, and play closer to a GFGO7900GS.

I have read that SupCom is extremely CPU intensive and hardly utilizes the GPU at all. so maybe the GPU is not as important for this game as it is for others.

 

[nick2124]

IF you can, avoid Vista at all costs.

I used Vista Home, it was awful.

I ran multiple benchmarks on XP testing both video card and cpu.

I install Vista, along with latest drivers, dx10 etc.

I do some benchmarks... and I scored an overall of 30% LOWER with Vista than I did with XP.

I did a complete system test (which tested at every peice of hardware) with Vista, scored 1700 - same hardware but with XP I scored 2300.

In regards to my video card, with AquaMark I scored 11,000 on XP, and a pitiful 7000 on Vista. And aquamark is a DX9 program. Perhaps the version of DX10 I was using wasn't very good for DX9 applications.

So yes... XP handles games a lot better. (from my own experience)

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

The GF8600/8700 series may not "win" against the GF79xx series against the other games, but neither do they really "fail" MOST of the FPS differences seem too small to really be noticable, but hey, I dont really have a firm number for what constitutes good, as the one article says, it depends on the game (I am thinking at least 30 should appear to play fairly smooth.) Furthermore, The 8series have the future utility of future games, which will more fully utilize them.
...
What would you say is a comfortable FPS threshold for fast paced games that are popular right now? Is it comparable to monitor refresh rates?

Yes the GF8700M-GT should be quite 'useable'. As for fps there are two styles that matter most to this.
FPS, or twitch shooters (like UT2K4, Quake4, FarCry, etc) where quick turns and quick firefights matter alot between being dead or not and thus fun or not. The there's RTSs and creeper games like SplinterCell where it's not about speed but about planning and ploding through things delibarately and having lots of detail. Then there's games like Oblivion that are IMO in the middle, where a bit of speed is handy, but it's mainly fluidity you need not twitch battling (usually I'm swaping in the console and such then back to casting/slashing/etc and back again). 15-20 fps is fine for the RTS or Creeper. 30-40 fps is fins for a game like Oblivion, and then 40-60+ is preferable for twitch FPS games, especially if playing against human opponents, because then you're doing stressful things to fluidity and targeting like jump-fragging, and 180deg turn & shoot moves. So you really need to consider where those games fit into your plans and whether you think you can achieve those requirements for yourself.

I do, however, have a couple of other questions that occured to me.
Is it possible (and relatively simple) to change the RAID of the two identical toshiba x205 HDs to RAID 0 to increase their 5400 RPM performance?

I'm not certain, but I would say yes, however for gaming HDD speed is really only important for transition loading, not really helping avg fps.

Is it possible (and relatively simple/safe) to use nTune to overclock a laptop with no prior experience? I know TH goes over overclocking a bit.

Yes pretty simple. I haven't not (sorry for the double negative) overclocked my laptops since my last NeoMagic Thinkpad. It's pretty easy on both nV and ATi soluitions to use tools like CoolBits and AtiTool. I OC my MobilityRadeon X700 from 350/335(670) to 400/415(830) in order to let me play UT2K4 at best framerates and Oblivion at larger resolution with more grass/features than I would at stock. It get noticeably warmer (like 5-10C) in the exhaust, but it'll do a 4+hr session no problem. Main thing is to take it extremely slow when testing the limits at first, do it in a cool room, not the height of summer. And be ready to turn off any OCing immediately if you experience instability/artifacting. Also consider what it does to your thermal load. My laptop will do 415/450 but I found it noticeably warmer.

I have been told that because of Vista's increase in bits (32/64 - vice - 16? for XP) eats up much more RAM. and that games actually perform worse on Vista systems, and that the best performance would occur on an XP system with the graphics driver running DX9, penny for your thoughts?

That's not always the case, and it is game specific and even company specific too. AMD/ATI experienced less of a drop gaming in Vista than nV (except in OGL). And Some games are better than other and worse than others. It has nothing to do with the bit version and there's 32/64 of both XP and Vista. IMO, buy a laptop with Vista 64bit, but if you have XP-32bit or can afford a copy, then blow out the pre-install and install XP32 bit, until you need Vista (for DX10 games or games like Halo2 PC) , or until you feel it's better (maybe after more driver support or SP1?). Vista's OK, but for gaming usually XP is the way to go especially since the overhead of Vista is pretty bad compared to XP, and basically XP should have 2GB for gaming and Vista should have 4GB from most benchies. So IMO for the best gaming experience right now, go for XP in most situations, unless you know for sure that the game does better in Vista.

I have read that SupCom is extremely CPU intensive and hardly utilizes the GPU at all. so maybe the GPU is not as important for this game as it is for others.

Yeah if you look at the benchmarks it's not a big a deal as it is in other games. The difference is very minor, and medium resolutions there's little difference, it takes cranking resolution or AA to start to make a noticeable diffference.

PS, I missed this at work, but the laptop I've been waiting for a new contender for you to consider (or maybe not) that I am just trying to spec out for myself so I get a price from my contact at work, the HP DRAGON HDX is finally on sale;
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/s...ding=notebooks&a1=Usage&v1=Extreme Multimedia



Nice quickie review here;
http/www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3850

 

[IceFluffy]

Could anybody tell me where I can get a 7200rpm hardrive for the new ASUS G2S. I bought it and would like to boost my performance. This is where I got it. There is a cool review on there with lots of pictures too.

http/www.lazercoms.be/winkel/product_info.php?cPath=97&products_id=453

I'm pretty impressed with the grafics when playing games like STALKER, BF2 and EVE but the starting times of the laptop and loading times of the games are awfull. I get the impression everytime it needs info from the HDD it takes forever. (wish raid 0 on laptops were possible)

I looked around but got the impression the 7200rpm notebook hardrives are pretty rare. The only thing I found was a site that said it was in the making. Just a note... I'm looking for one available in europe.

 

[nick2124]

What hard drive are you using? Is it SATA?

Also, RAM could be slowing you down. Infact, a million things could be responcible for sluggish performance in a laptop, what makes u think its the hard drive?

 

[jetpilot79]

I do, however, have a couple of other questions that occured to me.
Is it possible (and relatively simple) to change the RAID of the two identical toshiba x205 HDs to RAID 0 to increase their 5400 RPM performance?

I'm not certain, but I would say yes, however for gaming HDD speed is really only important for transition loading, not really helping avg fps.

Could you direct me to a good website for changing RAID config to 0 on laptops, Im having trouble finding.

That's not always the case, and it is game specific and even company specific too. AMD/ATI experienced less of a drop gaming in Vista than nV (except in OGL). And Some games are better than other and worse than others. It has nothing to do with the bit version and there's 32/64 of both XP and Vista. IMO, buy a laptop with Vista 64bit, but if you have XP-32bit or can afford a copy, then blow out the pre-install and install XP32 bit, until you need Vista (for DX10 games or games like Halo2 PC) , or until you feel it's better (maybe after more driver support or SP1?). Vista's OK, but for gaming usually XP is the way to go especially since the overhead of Vista is pretty bad compared to XP, and basically XP should have 2GB for gaming and Vista should have 4GB from most benchies. So IMO for the best gaming experience right now, go for XP in most situations, unless you know for sure that the game does better in Vista.

People screamed about XP when it first came out too. SO, I get the impression that when new software ships, they have to see the problems that occur on the multitude of different systems in order to isolate a fix for the issues at hand. Im sure that Vista will come into its own, or just be completely replaced like ME, which was definately crap...

PS, I missed this at work, but the laptop I've been waiting for a new contender for you to consider (or maybe not) that I am just trying to spec out for myself so I get a price from my contact at work, the HP DRAGON HDX is finally on sale;
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/s...ding=notebooks&a1=Usage&v1=Extreme Multimedia



Nice quickie review here;
http/www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3850

This laptop looks real nice, but it is too BIG for all my travels... I wouldnt want to lug this thing around the flightdeck, and multitude of hotels I find myself in... My confidence in the X205 is soaring though and I own and really like Toshiba laptops, so I am waiting for Chaz to post his X205 review on notebook review.com this week.
here is a good link for the preview
http/www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3836


Thanks again APE! You are a consistently helpful person, as I have seen on other posts too. Do you ever have time to play games, or do you spend all of your time answering our questions. 😀