High end audio

[musical marv]

Do you really know what constitutes high end audio?

 

[soundguruman]

Do you really know what constitutes high end audio?

WTF? Go back to modifying Peavey Windsors

 

[musical marv]

WTF? Go back to modifying Peavey Windsors

Peavey is a pro audio speaker not high end at all.

 

[musical marv]

u sure ??? im pretty sure ppl have a hard time hearing each individual insturment in the REAL THING!!!. i mena ya... i can hear it.. but pinpoint is another thing...

You are talking about pin point imaging which can happen with Maggies, ML and perhaps Wilson speakers and some dynamic speakers.But this is still an illusion.

 

[anwaypasible]

it does seem a little strange that microphones arent always the best to be recording in the first place.
but to say that the microphone is good and it was recorded with analog, eventually that analog will be transfered to digital.
if there is no transfer to digital, the audio wont be mass produced to all of the consumers.
this would mean you are stuck with the few select friends in a group.. but that doesnt mean you cant send an analog tape to a professional music 'reviewer'
but
it does mean the person will inevitably tell you that the transfer to digital will have to happen for millions of people to enjoy it.
(and they might say thousands of people wont be able to enjoy it)

i dont remember ever hearing a consumer-level tape sounding any better than cd.
i didnt have the speakers for it, and i dont recall any increase in anything such as noise floor.
i think the dynamic range with cd's are higher than those tapes.
the next question would be slew rate.
somebody said the slew rate is how much of the audio is output from the speakers based on how fast and sensitive the playback device is (if the data is there in the first place)

doesnt seem like much of an upgrade when you can simply increase the sample rate to get a higher slew rate.
the data would be there, but would the digital to analog convertor and amplifier circuit play back the extra audio information?

a whole lot of emphasis was placed on the noise floor and dynamic range.
not much was said about the slew rate and transients.

an example..
my creative x-fi elite pro (now dead waiting for some repair info) has a low noise floor.. but the realtek HD audio soundcard integrated onto my motherboard has a faster slew rate.
yes, the higher noise floor is annoying.. but the faster slew rate helps pour out more audio.
since the noise floor is too high, transients are less pleasing and harder to hear.

it seems like a compromise of noise floor to more audio data.
and i think the lower noise floor is less annoying, but knowing that there is some audio data i still dont hear is also annoying.
clean with missing audio
or
dirty with more audio
seems like the choice is already made for us with the lower noise floor being the winner.

i miss the silence, but i feel left out.

 

[anwaypasible]

You are talking about pin point imaging which can happen with Maggies, ML and perhaps Wilson speakers and some dynamic speakers.But this is still an illusion.

awww c'mon.. time isnt an illusion.
all of the ability to hear direction isnt the timing, as amplitude is also a function.
getting the timing out of the speaker is one thing.
getting each speaker to line up with eachother to present the timing and amplitude is what most people fail to do by not using the time alignment and other room optimization digital sound processor functions.

gotta have speakers capable of the time.
gotta have the wild soundwaves in the room tame and organized.
if either one is not met, the chance of pinpointing things with high accuracy is non-existant.
that is why some of us laugh at people who buy really expensive speakers without doing the room optimization from software.
maybe some old timers who laugh at people using software room optimizers because they build a room that tries to do the same thing.
those construction workers might get close to some of the sound processing of the 1980's and early 1990's .. but not coming close to software digital sound processing that tailors to room optimizing.
sometimes they try to get the time alignment right.
sometimes they try to get the room reflections down.. could be sound absorbing panels or simpling grabbing those extra soundwaves and putting them into some kind of 'junk drawer'
but at the end of the day.. all rooms can be made to sound better with software digital sound processing, even those rooms that have been custom built for audio.
seems like the more those construction workers mess with the room.. the harder it is to find some audio software that will make the room sound better.
square and rectangled rooms are the average, and that is why those pieces of software are designed for them.

custom audio optimization software for the room can go a long long long way if the programmer knows what is what.
sometimes the optimizing software can be designed with the furniture, and if you move or replace any furniture .. the whole thing sounds different.

 

[MEgamer]

Peavey is a pro audio speaker not high end at all.

yes but its always pro audio spekaers (high end or not) that is first monitored tooo, which is then sent out to teh appropriate mediums, to speakers like me and u have. you cant relaly say the speaker consumers own 'high end' cos its still 'home speakers', when u take the whole audio industry and judge the level from there and then, its the pro speakers that always wins.

 

[anwaypasible]

'pro audio' speakers.. as they are categorized, are high decibel speakers that tend to no pressuring of the air.
their characteristics are loud and dull.. but the higher quality speakers are more sensitive, and the extra sensitivity adds to more of the audio heard.
lots of limiters and dynamic compressors to get a pretty flat and loud shape.
any dispersion of a wide degree also helps categorize these speakers.

you say something about recording from these pro audio speakers with a microphone, to capture a medium.
not impossible to get an improved result when the speakers and microphones are a match.. but that is why it is refered to as a 'medium' and not fidelity.

since the pro speakers are always some kind of warm sounding, based on their lack of dynamics (because they have no need for sound pressure)
then you can match them with a cold sounding microphone to create a 'neutral' medium.

concert speakers are the same way, but they are larger sized.. meaning heavy duty.
PA speakers are the smallest version of the category.
none of them are really worth much IF you want pressure.
if all you want is to listen to it without feeling the audio, as this would mean no special effects like wind or breezes.. then some of these speakers can be sensitive enough (and without coloring) to give way to a decent listening experience.
you wont need a very high dynamic range, but you will still need a very low noise floor.
many times these speakers have a limiter somewhere in the chain to prevent extra speaker cone movement that would damage the speaker or distort the audio.

now, trying to use these speakers for room optimization would prove to be bad.
time alignment would be easy, but reverb would probably stretch the function of the speaker beyond its limits.
i dont know if sparks would zap from the voice coil.. or if the voice coil would get red hot without producing the reverb, probably a situation of one or the other.. but stranger things have happened.

once you put this category aside, there really isnt much else for speaker categories other than home audio and car audio.
sure, there might be some 'toys' that are made to produce obnoxious amounts of sound pressure.. but if the level is low enough, they might be suitable for home theater.. as long as the speaker cone doesnt require freedom from pressure.

when the microphones are good enough (someday?) then there will be no speakers playing audio for instruments to create the live 'band' experience.
because if there was a speaker playing, it would be like capturing the inferior audio quality (the amplitude and time included) from say a portable boom box.

video cameras are pretty easy to use for comparison, as the resolution has increased.. meaning the fidelity has also increased.
yes, not every HD camera has the same color accuracy (or the amount of colors available) .. but if you find a good one, you could start to build examples for 'point of view capturing'
since the camera only has one video sensor, the lens would have to re-create a width of our eyeballs.. or use two of 'em (how stereoscopy is recorded)

see, stereoscopy is the biggest function of forward pace at the moment.
if you can start to see things in mind-tricking 3d from a capture source, the same can be said about capturing audio.
just gotta give it time for the hardware to be improved.

 

[musical marv]

yes but its always pro audio spekaers (high end or not) that is first monitored tooo, which is then sent out to teh appropriate mediums, to speakers like me and u have. you cant relaly say the speaker consumers own 'high end' cos its still 'home speakers', when u take the whole audio industry and judge the level from there and then, its the pro speakers that always wins.

Please go to a website called Audiophilia and read what high end is all about.Read Roy harris who is contributor to this magazine and a friend of mine years ago and is in this field most of his life. thanks marv

 

[MEgamer]

can a high end speaker (consumer) play out a melody, at continuous output of 100db?

is there any that can even survive an attack of a melody from an electronic insturment?

can it provide ground shaking bass from a bass guitar at continous 100db??? ---to a listener that is at least 10m away?

is there any consumer speaker out thre that has greater efficiency then a PA speaker? at least 100db per watt. and one that can survive such high output for a long time.

is there any that have mroe dynamic range then a studio monitor or a cinema speaker?


how about dispersion??? mm?? no....

the audience would feel unexcited if a live concert had hifi speakers... the dynamics are just no where near to a prosumers.... same would go for cinema applications,

and for mixing and mastering... a resolution of a pro montior will be far much better for the price u pay for a hifi speaker... which would also have been geared towards one type of sound...

and dont reply to me saying volume and power isnt important... anyone with a brain cell would realize why hif speakers arent used in such scenarios. and no one would sacrifice pure quality for volume... espescially to the point where the sensitivity goes as low as avg. 80db... like MBL.

having said all this... i only find hifi speakers to have the REAL advantages at lower volumes 60-100db, anything over and well... u just dont go there with a hifi...

saying goes for resolving power... although its arguable to say the least... most recording stuiods in northern europe have adopted to the genelec... where as american has yamaha, and UK has B & W as well as yamaha. BUT studio monitors to this day, still have better resolving power per price.

marv. that website only addreeses consumer application which is probably what u are talking about... and yes i see what u mean by "high end audio" but u still have to look at this from teh whole adio industry perspective.

 

[ien2222]

I feel a little bit silly now. I thought we were quibbling over little things, but with that last post MEgamer, I now realize that we are on different pages, well chapters really.

Pro audio runs by a different set of criteria than high end audio as there are different goal sets for each. If you really are suggesting that pro gear is part of high end as you seem to be implying, or that their tech is where advances are made and then trickled down to the high end market, then I definitely see why you are having trouble understanding/accepting some of the previous comments, especially mine.

High end deals mostly with accurate recreation of the recording, pro audio, especially dealing with a concert setting, is more concerned about volume and dispersion. Studio monitors are tricky, though they are called monitors, a good part of the time they aren't the same as something like stage monitors, they are actually high end speakers.

This discussion question posed was 'Do you really know what constitutes high end audio?' The answer deals with sound quality and recreation. Pro audio doesn't necessarily care so much and certainly doesn't win compared to high end in that department.

 

[stillerfan15]

I feel a little bit silly now. I thought we were quibbling over little things, but with that last post MEgamer, I now realize that we are on different pages, well chapters really.

Pro audio runs by a different set of criteria than high end audio as there are different goal sets for each. If you really are suggesting that pro gear is part of high end as you seem to be implying, or that their tech is where advances are made and then trickled down to the high end market, then I definitely see why you are having trouble understanding/accepting some of the previous comments, especially mine.

High end deals mostly with accurate recreation of the recording, pro audio, especially dealing with a concert setting, is more concerned about volume and dispersion. Studio monitors are tricky, though they are called monitors, a good part of the time they aren't the same as something like stage monitors, they are actually high end speakers.

This discussion question posed was 'Do you really know what constitutes high end audio?' The answer deals with sound quality and recreation. Pro audio doesn't necessarily care so much and certainly doesn't win compared to high end in that department.

Amen.

 

[anwaypasible]

can a high end speaker (consumer) play out a melody, at continuous output of 100db?

is there any that can even survive an attack of a melody from an electronic insturment?

can it provide ground shaking bass from a bass guitar at continous 100db??? ---to a listener that is at least 10m away?

is there any consumer speaker out thre that has greater efficiency then a PA speaker? at least 100db per watt. and one that can survive such high output for a long time.

is there any that have mroe dynamic range then a studio monitor or a cinema speaker?


how about dispersion??? mm?? no....

the audience would feel unexcited if a live concert had hifi speakers... the dynamics are just no where near to a prosumers.... same would go for cinema applications,

and for mixing and mastering... a resolution of a pro montior will be far much better for the price u pay for a hifi speaker... which would also have been geared towards one type of sound...

and dont reply to me saying volume and power isnt important... anyone with a brain cell would realize why hif speakers arent used in such scenarios. and no one would sacrifice pure quality for volume... espescially to the point where the sensitivity goes as low as avg. 80db... like MBL.

having said all this... i only find hifi speakers to have the REAL advantages at lower volumes 60-100db, anything over and well... u just dont go there with a hifi...

saying goes for resolving power... although its arguable to say the least... most recording stuiods in northern europe have adopted to the genelec... where as american has yamaha, and UK has B & W as well as yamaha. BUT studio monitors to this day, still have better resolving power per price.

marv. that website only addreeses consumer application which is probably what u are talking about... and yes i see what u mean by "high end audio" but u still have to look at this from teh whole adio industry perspective.

if you want high decibels, you should be looking for cinema speakers.
otherwise, you would have to double-up or even triple-up the home theater versions.
they arent ment to get loud, as if the industry is babysitting the people at home so they dont go deaf.
cinema speakers are ment for large rooms.. they are there to prevent people from needing two or three pairs of the same speaker to get an acceptable decibel level at the listening position.
in times past, you would probably look at car audio speakers for such higher output.
these speakers have to play loud enough to be heard clearly over the road noise and loud exhausts.
many times if you found a speaker that sounded better than anything else, you would have to buy like 4 or 5 of them to get loud.
it is a decent compromise, as the sound quality is higher.. and you have to buy more speakers = you have to buy more amps.

when you start asking them to make speakers that have fidelity and can also play loudly.. some people in the game would point you to cinema speakers (but this would probably prove to be a waste of time because those arent audiophile speakers.. they are decent and extra loud ... until you start to pay a really high price tag for the better fidelity.
once speakers get fidelity and play loud.. i would assume there is going to be a compromise.
maybe the frequency response isnt as flat.. maybe the voice coil doesnt tolerate phase changes.. maybe the voice coil doesnt tolerate being adjusted with an equalizer.. maybe it wont work with reverb/echo/chorus and the like.

there were quite a few car audio speakers in the 1990's that were 'hidden gems'
if you hooked 'em up and pressed play.. they dont sound very good.
you have to use equalizers and reverb to get better sound out of 'em.

people have been whining about speakers for a long long time.
its like they go to the store, buy some meat, cook the meat and eat it, then complain that there was no flavor.
now, the industry is being forced to 'pre-season' the meat before it is sold at the store.
its a product of being lazy or clueless.
and if you are clueless.. it is nobodys fault other then not knowing.
nothing really to blame except for time wasted.
maybe there are articles out there that teach you, but if you didnt know about the subject.. how could you ever type in the word into an internet search engine?
maybe they will tell you 'well you should have read a book'
and i would say to that, 'if the internet made searching and learning more accessible to people who are clueless.. we would then learn the unknown'
we could also say that there is a lack of teaching people new words and new things in all of the articles we read.
things like 'for more detailed information click here'
or
'if you want to know more about that, lookup (discover) the word ______'

it doesnt take a genius to know, if your child grows up in a neighborhood full of white people.. they dont know that there are chinese and mexicans and black people and all of the major different visual properties.
i doubt they even care about things like german or irish or french or whatever other nationality looks cream/white.
that is all about not knowing there is more out there.
once they learn, they will probably go back and start to look at things like the eyeballs and ears and nose to realize people are different even when they are white.
and usually this stuff happens before kindergarden or pre-school.
cartoons do and dont help.
they dont show actually different ethnicities.. but they do draw characters in different colors.
better than giving the kid some kind of heart attack from confusion and a feeling of 'new'


anyways.. as far as society is concerned, do people say 'i want premium sound and i will pay for it?'
yes they do.. and some people start to look at bose.
some people simply try different speakers (whatever is available at the local electronics store) and grab which one is the best sounding.
other people.. well, they learn words and terms that describe what they need to get better audio.
some people will do this and stop with a bose set of speakers.
now a days, it isnt only bose who create a better listening experience.
there are lots of pre-built speaker sets.. and usually these speakers arent available for demo.
people just read the website and make a decision.
a real electronics store would have like 40 different speakers to choose from.
maybe 20 different name brands.
and we dont see these very often because they are too busy with building a fake home theater room and they choose whatever speakers they want to go in there.
since the room is already built, most people are afraid to ask them to put different speakers into the room for trying them out.
they need a sign that tells the customer it is okay to ask for speaker changes.
i have seen some stores have a number of speakers setup with a speaker selector switch.. but those speakers arent premium grade.
they trick you into buying the best one out of all of the junk.. and you pay more money than they are worth.
really really bad speakers can make a piece of junk look much better.


i just gotta have a giggle about 'can the speakers play a melody from an electronic device'
because sometimes those electronic devices create such an exotic sound that only the top speakers can play.
you might find a speaker that plays one sound and not the other.. and you might fight with this for quite a while.
and when you find a speaker that will play both, it probably wont play very loud or handle lots of power without distorting or dieing.
lots of those analog and electronic versions of sound machines will create sounds that the voice coil isnt complex enough to playback.
most times you will hear something, but it wont be exactly like it sounds from the machine.
if you know the knobs and dials, then you know how it is supposed to sound.
you might turn a knob and the sound changes only so much before it stops changing.
other times you will hear the sound change, but it wont be exact.. maybe audio fidelity is missing, maybe the sound is colored.. and maybe it is because you are at the wrong end of the frequency range for the speaker.

as the microphones get better at recording sounds.. amplifiers will get better at playing back those sounds.
and really, it is the electronics inside the amplifier that we wait on.
what looks high quality and premium from the 1990's might look like junk today.
and it will happen again with the high quality pieces of electronics of today.
in the future we will look back and say 'these things are a bare minimum.. and they were some of the best you could get back then'

as the amplifiers make cleaner sounds.. the speakers will have to make cleaner sounds.
but that deals with the number of people today listening to 'high resolution' audio on speakers from the 1980's and 1970's
those things need to be moved into a garage or recycled.
but it is a good example of proof.. connecting a high fidelity receiver of today with a speaker from the past, you'll see that it is a step backwards.
people wont tolerate that, as the push for higher quality video has swept the world.. now we need to focus on higher quality audio to sweep the world.
then they will probably go back and upgrade the video quality again.. then the speakers again.

they have been getting the bandwidth down for all of the extra content in the audio.
since it is digital.. more audio information means more data being transfered.
seems like they wont that fight, as the new surround sound formats have been upgraded.
they are waiting on people to make good use of the 192khz sample rate before they go and upgrade the sample rate again.
mp3's and the number of people who buy them and are satisfied with them.. they are the ones holding the rest of us back.
if the industry upgrades everything again, sure.. those people would be forced to see an improvement.
but if we run into one of those people out in public or on the forums.. we have to use our different judgement.
some people give up quickly and say.. 'i am not going to waste all of my hard drive for better quality files'
and it is hard to blame them when the bigger hard drives are really expensive.
it is too late for that situation anyways.
what we need to aim focus at is the people who listen to mp3's and where happy with them.
they bought ipods when they came out.. and they did this because mp3's have been around for a while already.
people downloading mp3's from the peer to peer programs.
as they told the industry 'this is good enough for us'
that means ipods would sell.. and they did sell !
lots of mp3 players have been sold.. no matter what brand name it is.

some of us know there isnt anything we can do about it.. since the industry controls what is available, they say 'give us what you got' without putting up a fight.
they dont put up a fight because other people arent angry about it.
its like a social bandwagon.
if people arent ready to buy the new stuff.. it will sit around in the warehouses until the electronics are old and out of specification from not being used.
we could flood the market with these products, since that is what they are doing with the new surround sound formats.
but that doesnt mean people will select bluray audio over dvd audio.
it doesnt mean people will go into the menu of the movie and select the best audio format.

you just cant work with people who dont care.. you have to force them.
and that is usually what cops do on the streets.
since you dont care, they dont care.

a valid point.. cd's became available and not everybody went out and got a cd player.
not everybody put a cd player in their vehicle.
they stuck with tapes and refused the change until they were angry enough with all of the tapes being eaten over and over again.

when people dont care.. it makes it hard for us to go out and buy a decent television and expect it to work really good.
it isnt always about price that they can afford.. sometimes it is simply the shape/color of the television that they want.

if EVERYBODY cared about audio quality.. then there would have been lots of complaints from the telephone industry.
people throwing out phones because the other person wasnt as clean and clear.
i was one of the people who payed attention to the clarity of the other persons voice.
i found out that most of the cheap phones sounded better than the more expensive phones.
and a lot of the cheap phones from the dollar store would allow me to hear my voice while talking.. something i prefer when using the phone so that i know my voice can be heard.

 

[musical marv]

if you want high decibels, you should be looking for cinema speakers.
otherwise, you would have to double-up or even triple-up the home theater versions.
they arent ment to get loud, as if the industry is babysitting the people at home so they dont go deaf.
cinema speakers are ment for large rooms.. they are there to prevent people from needing two or three pairs of the same speaker to get an acceptable decibel level at the listening position.
in times past, you would probably look at car audio speakers for such higher output.
these speakers have to play loud enough to be heard clearly over the road noise and loud exhausts.
many times if you found a speaker that sounded better than anything else, you would have to buy like 4 or 5 of them to get loud.
it is a decent compromise, as the sound quality is higher.. and you have to buy more speakers = you have to buy more amps.

when you start asking them to make speakers that have fidelity and can also play loudly.. some people in the game would point you to cinema speakers (but this would probably prove to be a waste of time because those arent audiophile speakers.. they are decent and extra loud ... until you start to pay a really high price tag for the better fidelity.
once speakers get fidelity and play loud.. i would assume there is going to be a compromise.
maybe the frequency response isnt as flat.. maybe the voice coil doesnt tolerate phase changes.. maybe the voice coil doesnt tolerate being adjusted with an equalizer.. maybe it wont work with reverb/echo/chorus and the like.

there were quite a few car audio speakers in the 1990's that were 'hidden gems'
if you hooked 'em up and pressed play.. they dont sound very good.
you have to use equalizers and reverb to get better sound out of 'em.

people have been whining about speakers for a long long time.
its like they go to the store, buy some meat, cook the meat and eat it, then complain that there was no flavor.
now, the industry is being forced to 'pre-season' the meat before it is sold at the store.
its a product of being lazy or clueless.
and if you are clueless.. it is nobodys fault other then not knowing.
nothing really to blame except for time wasted.
maybe there are articles out there that teach you, but if you didnt know about the subject.. how could you ever type in the word into an internet search engine?
maybe they will tell you 'well you should have read a book'
and i would say to that, 'if the internet made searching and learning more accessible to people who are clueless.. we would then learn the unknown'
we could also say that there is a lack of teaching people new words and new things in all of the articles we read.
things like 'for more detailed information click here'
or
'if you want to know more about that, lookup (discover) the word ______'

it doesnt take a genius to know, if your child grows up in a neighborhood full of white people.. they dont know that there are chinese and mexicans and black people and all of the major different visual properties.
i doubt they even care about things like german or irish or french or whatever other nationality looks cream/white.
that is all about not knowing there is more out there.
once they learn, they will probably go back and start to look at things like the eyeballs and ears and nose to realize people are different even when they are white.
and usually this stuff happens before kindergarden or pre-school.
cartoons do and dont help.
they dont show actually different ethnicities.. but they do draw characters in different colors.
better than giving the kid some kind of heart attack from confusion and a feeling of 'new'


anyways.. as far as society is concerned, do people say 'i want premium sound and i will pay for it?'
yes they do.. and some people start to look at bose.
some people simply try different speakers (whatever is available at the local electronics store) and grab which one is the best sounding.
other people.. well, they learn words and terms that describe what they need to get better audio.
some people will do this and stop with a bose set of speakers.
now a days, it isnt only bose who create a better listening experience.
there are lots of pre-built speaker sets.. and usually these speakers arent available for demo.
people just read the website and make a decision.
a real electronics store would have like 40 different speakers to choose from.
maybe 20 different name brands.
and we dont see these very often because they are too busy with building a fake home theater room and they choose whatever speakers they want to go in there.
since the room is already built, most people are afraid to ask them to put different speakers into the room for trying them out.
they need a sign that tells the customer it is okay to ask for speaker changes.
i have seen some stores have a number of speakers setup with a speaker selector switch.. but those speakers arent premium grade.
they trick you into buying the best one out of all of the junk.. and you pay more money than they are worth.
really really bad speakers can make a piece of junk look much better.


i just gotta have a giggle about 'can the speakers play a melody from an electronic device'
because sometimes those electronic devices create such an exotic sound that only the top speakers can play.
you might find a speaker that plays one sound and not the other.. and you might fight with this for quite a while.
and when you find a speaker that will play both, it probably wont play very loud or handle lots of power without distorting or dieing.
lots of those analog and electronic versions of sound machines will create sounds that the voice coil isnt complex enough to playback.
most times you will hear something, but it wont be exactly like it sounds from the machine.
if you know the knobs and dials, then you know how it is supposed to sound.
you might turn a knob and the sound changes only so much before it stops changing.
other times you will hear the sound change, but it wont be exact.. maybe audio fidelity is missing, maybe the sound is colored.. and maybe it is because you are at the wrong end of the frequency range for the speaker.

as the microphones get better at recording sounds.. amplifiers will get better at playing back those sounds.
and really, it is the electronics inside the amplifier that we wait on.
what looks high quality and premium from the 1990's might look like junk today.
and it will happen again with the high quality pieces of electronics of today.
in the future we will look back and say 'these things are a bare minimum.. and they were some of the best you could get back then'

as the amplifiers make cleaner sounds.. the speakers will have to make cleaner sounds.
but that deals with the number of people today listening to 'high resolution' audio on speakers from the 1980's and 1970's
those things need to be moved into a garage or recycled.
but it is a good example of proof.. connecting a high fidelity receiver of today with a speaker from the past, you'll see that it is a step backwards.
people wont tolerate that, as the push for higher quality video has swept the world.. now we need to focus on higher quality audio to sweep the world.
then they will probably go back and upgrade the video quality again.. then the speakers again.

they have been getting the bandwidth down for all of the extra content in the audio.
since it is digital.. more audio information means more data being transfered.
seems like they wont that fight, as the new surround sound formats have been upgraded.
they are waiting on people to make good use of the 192khz sample rate before they go and upgrade the sample rate again.
mp3's and the number of people who buy them and are satisfied with them.. they are the ones holding the rest of us back.
if the industry upgrades everything again, sure.. those people would be forced to see an improvement.
but if we run into one of those people out in public or on the forums.. we have to use our different judgement.
some people give up quickly and say.. 'i am not going to waste all of my hard drive for better quality files'
and it is hard to blame them when the bigger hard drives are really expensive.
it is too late for that situation anyways.
what we need to aim focus at is the people who listen to mp3's and where happy with them.
they bought ipods when they came out.. and they did this because mp3's have been around for a while already.
people downloading mp3's from the peer to peer programs.
as they told the industry 'this is good enough for us'
that means ipods would sell.. and they did sell !
lots of mp3 players have been sold.. no matter what brand name it is.

some of us know there isnt anything we can do about it.. since the industry controls what is available, they say 'give us what you got' without putting up a fight.
they dont put up a fight because other people arent angry about it.
its like a social bandwagon.
if people arent ready to buy the new stuff.. it will sit around in the warehouses until the electronics are old and out of specification from not being used.
we could flood the market with these products, since that is what they are doing with the new surround sound formats.
but that doesnt mean people will select bluray audio over dvd audio.
it doesnt mean people will go into the menu of the movie and select the best audio format.

you just cant work with people who dont care.. you have to force them.
and that is usually what cops do on the streets.
since you dont care, they dont care.

a valid point.. cd's became available and not everybody went out and got a cd player.
not everybody put a cd player in their vehicle.
they stuck with tapes and refused the change until they were angry enough with all of the tapes being eaten over and over again.

when people dont care.. it makes it hard for us to go out and buy a decent television and expect it to work really good.
it isnt always about price that they can afford.. sometimes it is simply the shape/color of the television that they want.

if EVERYBODY cared about audio quality.. then there would have been lots of complaints from the telephone industry.
people throwing out phones because the other person wasnt as clean and clear.
i was one of the people who payed attention to the clarity of the other persons voice.
i found out that most of the cheap phones sounded better than the more expensive phones.
and a lot of the cheap phones from the dollar store would allow me to hear my voice while talking.. something i prefer when using the phone so that i know my voice can be heard.

To sum it up once again there is nothing like live music to hear.

 

[anwaypasible]

i can relate to the distinct difference of listening to a live band without any microphones and speakers.
but
most of the bands around here are constantly using highly sensitive speakers that lack fidelity.

i had a memory from some time in my past, about listening to a band play without any microphones.. the sound was quick, clear, clean, with lots of air.
brings life to the word nuance.
subjectively speaking, nuance as it is spelled without an i is the highly sensitive .. fidelity lacking speaker setups.

hearing the band play live without mics and amps.. its a globe of air with lots of sound.
and it deserves a word like 'nuance' except spelled with an i somewhere in there.

technically speaking, the description of cause is actually deciphered with the word 'beautiful'

 

[MEgamer]

I feel a little bit silly now. I thought we were quibbling over little things, but with that last post MEgamer, I now realize that we are on different pages, well chapters really.

Pro audio runs by a different set of criteria than high end audio as there are different goal sets for each. If you really are suggesting that pro gear is part of high end as you seem to be implying, or that their tech is where advances are made and then trickled down to the high end market, then I definitely see why you are having trouble understanding/accepting some of the previous comments, especially mine.

High end deals mostly with accurate recreation of the recording, pro audio, especially dealing with a concert setting, is more concerned about volume and dispersion. Studio monitors are tricky, though they are called monitors, a good part of the time they aren't the same as something like stage monitors, they are actually high end speakers.

This discussion question posed was 'Do you really know what constitutes high end audio?' The answer deals with sound quality and recreation. Pro audio doesn't necessarily care so much and certainly doesn't win compared to high end in that department.

maybe if ur comparing a 1000 hifi to a 1000 pro speakers, maybe the hifi wins.. this depends on whether the pro speaker is a monitor or a PA speaker....

now think it again, but this time.. if u were to spend $30000 on say.. a klipsch palladium, are u srsly just going to be listening to something at 60db?? at that level, where im guessing msot ppl listen to.. ur not going to be able to differnetiate prooerly the difference of a $30000 to a $5000 speaker...

anyway there are reasons why pro monitors are used instead of hifi sepakers., -i dont even know why abbey road studios even use the diamond 800, hardly a high end spaakers by YOUR standards...

there are pro speakers out here that can achieve JUST AS good sound quality.. like genelec, ATC, K & H, JBL, the moment when someone say a pro speaker, most of the ppl in this forum immediately dismiss it as NOT being a high end speaker, instead of telling someone to go down and listen to high end speakers, why dont YOU do the same for proffesional speakers..

" Pro audio doesn't necessarily care so much and certainly doesn't win compared to high end in that department"
genelec, ATC, K & H, JBL companies like these pay just as much attention to their hi fi speakers for consumers,as they do for prosumers, anyway more moeny is usually spend in developing pro audio then it is on hifi, plus hifi is still a small market compared to pro.

high end just downest go above hifi it goes above everywhere.... high end is always the top goal any company tries to achieve... thats why theres competition.... why would anyone would buy iten X, when item Z is better abd more "high end". plus im not into this marketing tactics and dialect that hifi company usually puts into their overview aobut their speakers...

acually my main point aside from what i said above, is that there is a a general level of ignorance here...

anyway im unsubscribing from this post... too much ignoramce..

 

[ien2222]

My suggestion would be to learn and understand the terminology used in this discussion. That's about all I have left and is most likely part of what Musical Marv was implying in his response about reading that site.

 

[anwaypasible]

maybe if ur comparing a 1000 hifi to a 1000 pro speakers, maybe the hifi wins.. this depends on whether the pro speaker is a monitor or a PA speaker....

now think it again, but this time.. if u were to spend $30000 on say.. a klipsch palladium, are u srsly just going to be listening to something at 60db?? at that level, where im guessing msot ppl listen to.. ur not going to be able to differnetiate prooerly the difference of a $30000 to a $5000 speaker...

anyway there are reasons why pro monitors are used instead of hifi sepakers., -i dont even know why abbey road studios even use the diamond 800, hardly a high end spaakers by YOUR standards...

there are pro speakers out here that can achieve JUST AS good sound quality.. like genelec, ATC, K & H, JBL, the moment when someone say a pro speaker, most of the ppl in this forum immediately dismiss it as NOT being a high end speaker, instead of telling someone to go down and listen to high end speakers, why dont YOU do the same for proffesional speakers..

" Pro audio doesn't necessarily care so much and certainly doesn't win compared to high end in that department"
genelec, ATC, K & H, JBL companies like these pay just as much attention to their hi fi speakers for consumers,as they do for prosumers, anyway more moeny is usually spend in developing pro audio then it is on hifi, plus hifi is still a small market compared to pro.

high end just downest go above hifi it goes above everywhere.... high end is always the top goal any company tries to achieve... thats why theres competition.... why would anyone would buy iten X, when item Z is better abd more "high end". plus im not into this marketing tactics and dialect that hifi company usually puts into their overview aobut their speakers...

acually my main point aside from what i said above, is that there is a a general level of ignorance here...

anyway im unsubscribing from this post... too much ignoramce..

oh i dont know..
i think it is pretty obvious that a pro speaker is ment to play loud for a large audience.. and if you start asking for extra sound quality, you first have to pay for the extra loudness.. making the extra audio quality super expensive.
audiences or crowds arent ment to have such audio quality.. they simply are not the right situation.
people move around and they gather up in small groups to talk.
trying to optimize the room for everybody on a horizontal plane is impossible UNLESS you raise the speakers up above their heads.
most people will tell you the same thing.. we dont care if the speaker sounds like cardboard, as long as they are super super sensitive to capture every little touch on the guitar string .. and every little touch or smear of the drum stick.
that is what was voted and won.
and that is what is being made.

the last pro speaker i measured with a meter came up 115dB
why not go to parts express and grab some 6.5 inch peerless HDS speakers?
they have a list price of $75 each .. but they are on sale for $30
no, they wont get up to 115dB
but
they should do 90dB with ease.
two of them should give you a listening position of 90 something decibels.
and if that isnt enough, try a quadrophonic setup with two more speakers in the back playing the exact same thing as the front speakers.
that should get you above 100dB pretty easily with one home theater receiver.
you could probably get like 105dB
the peerless speakers sound pretty good.. they are a huge improvement over anything available that most people buy.
i havent heard these speakers.. but i had some older model peerless speakers.
they came from a $1,500 set of speakers.
and that price was from the 1990's
if that price tag was today.. it would probably be $3,000 or more.

there are two different types of peerless.. one is peerless india, and these are usually the black shiney cones that sound like crap.
they are still an improvement over many of the well known brand names (especially things like logitech or creative for PC .. but also cerwin vega or infinity for the home theater)
they arent really hifi speakers, they are only a drop in replacement that offers an improvement.

the other peerless speakers are said to be made in a different factory.. in denmark.
as the product description points out, these speakers are very wide open and 'high definition'
they arent from a $20,000 set of speakers.. but they are enough to embarass best buy speakers.
the sound i heard was a little bit bright (or cold) .. but the audio seemed to pour out of the speaker much more with less restrictions.
these speakers can take you places, like in the 1980s when people across the ocean would have an entire wall of speakers.
something like 8 across and 10 down.. and sometimes the wall was on hinges to be pointed at different locations.

amazing how 40 speakers, that are like 3 or 4 inches big, can have enough sound to request they turn it down.
i dont know if my slang is right, as this was 20+ years ago, but i believe some people actually call the speaker array a 'danish wall' or 'swedish wall'
and if you get busy in the circuit, the general idea is to call it a wall with whatever you think it sounds like.
if the speakers sound orange with everything .. you might call it an 'orange wall'

anyways.. you dont need to do all of that.
as those walls sometimes have the phase between each speaker compensated for.
but
they take one of them european amplifiers (in america it is known as a PA amplifier)
and they match the volts with the number of speakers.. to turn it into watts.
70 volt PA amps are pretty common.
and they are designed for pushing all of them speakers at once.
that is how the speakers in a store work.. they are usually all on a grid, and that grid might lead to one or two amplifiers.
they play music, announce sales, request a person to pick up a phone and dial an extension, etc.

i believe 50 volts from an american car amplifier is about 1,000 watts
just gotta match the impedance with the voltage as usual.
wiring the speakers to get the impedance you need can be tricky.
it might make some of the speakers louder than others if you dont have enough voltage to power them all the right way.


do people listen to their expensive speakers at 60dB ?
yes they do.
they take what they can get and live with greater audio quality.
the deal is, it wont be loud but it will sound better than most of civilization has ever heard.
and the people accept it as they play their audio and live rich.

there are lots of audio electronics out there that arent ruler flat with their frequency response.. but most of it is within 4dB
that is a lot better than most people ever hear in their lifetime.

but.. as movies and television is demanding better audio quality, i would like to change the number of people who experience the higher class of audio.
i'm not the only one.
places like 'room eq wizard' are also trying to help.
lots of software to measure the frequency response with a real time analyzer.
they are just beginning to make equalizers and room optimization a 'feature' forced upon people.. rather than a 'tweak' most people dont even know exists.

this kind of stuff didnt always happen in the 1960's and 1970's .. and it didnt happen much in the 1980's either.
there were people with equalizers, but they usually didnt use a microphone to calibrate the EQ.
they would simply change the dials to what they 'think' is better.
and a lot of the speakers could sound about as good if you only paid more for the speakers.
if you go to madisound.com .. you will see that a lot of the speakers have pretty flat frequency responses.. meaning no real need to use an equalizer.
but room echoes still exist.. and digital sound processing wasnt as easily available.
a hardware reverb unit back then was usually the top of the high end speaker setups.. followed by a tape player or high quality record player.
i'm assuming the calibration microphones back then where way too much than anybody could afford.. so nobody used them.

the real ignorance is having all of these tools available for much lower prices and much easier to find.. but nobody is using them, and nobody is teaching other people that they exist and should use them.
thankfully the new surround sound formats are causing lots of interest.
just like how dolby prologic started some interest back in the 1990's
it doesnt have to be for people with lots of money to blow.
the industry is directly telling you, this is a standard and it is expected that you have the equipment to go with the movie.
much like popcorn and a soda goes with a movie, rear speakers are needed too.
once you learn about rear speakers, the rest just starts pouring in thanks to advertisement on the receivers that give the people rear speakers.

while these speakers sound better than a whole lot of other speakers.. they are supposed to be a starting point and a 'gateway drug' for the other sets of speakers that cost $10,000 - $30,000
people who sell those expensive speakers rely on the people learning about better speakers.
some people will get started and absolutely love what they have discovered.. and then these people say 'hey.. it gets better if you pay more'
and some people will say 'really?!! omg, i want to go far' and they will spend what they can afford.

it is all about the bait that gets you started.. they HAVE TO BE better to prove a point.
once you learn the new discovery.. you will probably have a totally different view on life (or at least a different view on your 'relaxation time' )
maybe you feel that your time to relax has finally FINALLY been met.
other people will probably think to themselves 'wow.. i never knew i could relax and enjoy myself this much!!!'
it can be like going on a vacation without leaving the house for a week/month.
people being to fill themselves with happiness that has maybe never been so easy to obtain.
smiles start to show faster.. people grow less angry.

i wouldnt ever EVER expect pro audio speakers to sound like audiophile speakers.
probably because i have been listening to DJ equipment since the late 1980's
over time, there havent been any advancements for low or medium budget.
when you hear DJ after DJ and concert after concert without any real improvement.. you just know that the whole market is not being nice to people unless they pay WAY too much for the speakers.
pyle.. pyle pro.. mackies.. peavey.. eminence.. jbl
all of these companies are well known.. and all of them have done a mighty fine job of embarassing the audiophile by showing a lack of taste and class (and quality for those who expected to hear major improvements)

of couse some sound worse than others.. and some are more durable than others.. but back in the 1990's you could easily compare the audio quality from these DJ speakers to some BOSE speakers and the BOSE speakers would be the clear winner of improvement.
yes, sometimes the DJ speakers were just as sensitive as the BOSE speakers (and sometimes even better because they were louder, making the listener work less to gather some results)
but it was simply a point where it would teach a person that the audio speakers were getting upgrades.
after i learned of this, i waited for new speakers to come out that would impress me.. and usually it didnt ever happen.
most of the smaller speakers got louder without distorting.. and the DJ speakers got louder and a little bit clearer/faster.
but when you ask the DJ what kind of speakers they had and the only thing you expected to hear was something like 'the new model of pyle speakers'
it left me guessing to myself 'i wonder if the extra detail is even worth thinking about.. and how come more DJ's dont have the speakers that sound better?'
i always thought the DJ was blind or careless or irresponsible when their speakers didnt show signs of improvement.

to me, it was like a vehicle that had no muffler and the person just kept driving around with the loud exhaust .. ignoring the problem.

 

[musical marv]

No matter how gd it is... you are listening to 2 point sources... EVERY instrument in....say a classical ochestra -has an DIFFERNET "almost omnidirectional" nature of its own... i never said that the sound was different,... sure there are probably speakers out there that can play almost exactly the way as it should sound... but is that sound travelling out fomr the speaker towards u in the same manner as a REAL INSTRUMENT??? no of course not. and that is the main differnence.

This difference can be even more noticable at louder volumes. you can try getting rid of room modes by playing a source outdoors... but heck its a speaker its a point source or a line souce(planar speakers) at its best.

plus all spekaers have boundaries(edge of soudstage in this case).. u can only say there isnt one, when u are in an illusion (a very very very gd setup needed.)

One question I will ask you now. what is the most important part of the music you hear which qualifies for the most realistic sound reproducing speakers? thanks

 

[anwaypasible]

good question, as some people might not know their options.
there is time
phase
resolution

arent colored speakers at least a combination of phase and resolution, if not all three?
i could picture some colored speakers being on time.. but maybe way off when it comes to hardware measurements.
like the impulse peak is on time.. but the tail is way off.
compared to
the impulse peak being late.. but the tail is dead on.

i think time and resolution go hand in hand to be one of the same.
as it is simply the trimming of the tail (or to say the extension of the tail) that adds or subtracts the resolution.

sometimes the tail isnt really trimmed.. it is bent backwards and reinserted into the function of the coil to allow for more 'capability'
lots of capable speakers out there, they just dont show it when you plug in the speaker and press play without some serious audio processing affects.

picturing reverb so strong that the only thing that comes out of the speaker sounds like the voice coil is destroyed and showing only minor signs of 'fizzle' from a high powered amplifier (or connected to a wall socket for a brief moment)
in that fizzle contains mhz (at least) of information.
once the fizzle starts to bounce around the walls.. it 'unfolds' the data in the domain of time, as if reflections and time and collisions decrypt the audio to something that can be comprehended by the casual listener.

kinda crazy to say you can grab all of the sound from a large warehouse and smash it into a much much smaller time domain.
then to unleash it is simply a matter of a maze or labyrinth.

i wouldnt ever want to hear that question, as if i was in trouble, because i wouldnt want to pick only one

 

[musical marv]

good question, as some people might not know their options.
there is time
phase
resolution

arent colored speakers at least a combination of phase and resolution, if not all three?
i could picture some colored speakers being on time.. but maybe way off when it comes to hardware measurements.
like the impulse peak is on time.. but the tail is way off.
compared to
the impulse peak being late.. but the tail is dead on.

i think time and resolution go hand in hand to be one of the same.
as it is simply the trimming of the tail (or to say the extension of the tail) that adds or subtracts the resolution.

sometimes the tail isnt really trimmed.. it is bent backwards and reinserted into the function of the coil to allow for more 'capability'
lots of capable speakers out there, they just dont show it when you plug in the speaker and press play without some serious audio processing affects.

picturing reverb so strong that the only thing that comes out of the speaker sounds like the voice coil is destroyed and showing only minor signs of 'fizzle' from a high powered amplifier (or connected to a wall socket for a brief moment)
in that fizzle contains mhz (at least) of information.
once the fizzle starts to bounce around the walls.. it 'unfolds' the data in the domain of time, as if reflections and time and collisions decrypt the audio to something that can be comprehended by the casual listener.

kinda crazy to say you can grab all of the sound from a large warehouse and smash it into a much much smaller time domain.
then to unleash it is simply a matter of a maze or labyrinth.

i wouldnt ever want to hear that question, as if i was in trouble, because i wouldnt want to pick only one

The most important part of music is the midrange which constitutes 80% of the music. Than highs and bass.