USB2 HDTV

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1111598459.616751.306880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

>
> Bob Miller wrote:
>> USB2 HDTV capable receiver, neat.
>>
>> http/www.digitimes.com/news/a20050315PR205.html
>>
>> by 2025 8-VSB will have products like this. If and when they may
>> actually advertise them also.
>>
>> The rest of the world gets neat DTV products we get a MANDATE that
> force
>> feeds us junk.
>
> This IS junk. The vast majority of HD viewers want to experience the
> viewing on a large scale, not on their 15 or 17" monitors.

We-ellll, the thing is, if this device would capture an HDTV signal into
my computer, my video card is quite capable of spitting out a 1080i
signal to my big monitor across from my easy chair!

And popping audio across to the stereo is no big deal either. It will
even take all six Dolby 5.1 signals on one of its inputs! And the sound
interface in the computer will deliver it. Plus one would hope that the
programming could be snaffled to hard drive for posterity.


--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

A false witness is worse than no witness at all.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

But what is the quality of that videocard conversion circuitry and
components...
I'd bet not as good as most high end Plasma/DLP/LCD displays or DVD players
and especially the iSCAN HD+.

It just wouldn't fit my needs at all, but that's just me.

Dave Oldridge wrote:

>
>We-ellll, the thing is, if this device would capture an HDTV signal into
>my computer, my video card is quite capable of spitting out a 1080i
>signal to my big monitor across from my easy chair!
>
>And popping audio across to the stereo is no big deal either. It will
>even take all six Dolby 5.1 signals on one of its inputs! And the sound
>interface in the computer will deliver it. Plus one would hope that the
>programming could be snaffled to hard drive for posterity.
>
>
>
>

--
Ric Seyler

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

We have had USB2 HD tuner in US for over a year. It is Sasem OnAir USB
HDTV. Besides receiving 8VSB it also does clear QAM from cable and has
full support for DVHS. It was discontinued couple weeks ago. New model
is coming out in 2 weeks.
They also are building a new website. http/www.usbhdtv.com/


--
CKNA, Posted this message at http/www.SatelliteGuys.US

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Top posting is considered bad usenettiquette. (I do so here to make this
point ;-)

RicSeyler wrote:
> But what is the quality of that videocard conversion circuitry and
> components...
Extremely good. Nvidia and ATI have invested large amounts of money into
hardware-level HDTV support in their video chipsets.
> I'd bet not as good as most high end Plasma/DLP/LCD displays or DVD players
> and especially the iSCAN HD+.
You're mixing apples and oranges here.
>
> It just wouldn't fit my needs at all, but that's just me.
Exactly...right tool for the job.
>
> Dave Oldridge wrote:
>
>>
>> We-ellll, the thing is, if this device would capture an HDTV signal
>> into my computer, my video card is quite capable of spitting out a
>> 1080i signal to my big monitor across from my easy chair!
>>
>> And popping audio across to the stereo is no big deal either. It will
>> even take all six Dolby 5.1 signals on one of its inputs! And the
>> sound interface in the computer will deliver it. Plus one would hope
>> that the programming could be snaffled to hard drive for posterity.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

 

[mattk]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Iii0e.2028$gI5.318@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Many manufacturers make DVB-T receivers of all kinds. In the UK this list
> has 91 different models and there are many more not listed.
>
> http/www.radioandtelly.co.uk/freeviewreceivers.html
>
> This is after only two years of broadcasting in the UK. We have been doing
> 8-VSB in the US for seven years, where are the products? Where are ones
> that work?
>
> Bob Miller

The BBC started broadcasting DVB-T services in the UK in mid-1998, not far
off 7 years ago.... even so we still don't have any HD OTA receivers out of
that list of 91 products, in fact often they barely manage acceptable SD.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

I have my laptop DVI output going to my Sharp HD LCD and optical S/PDIF
going from my laptop to my home theater receiver. I think you will see more
integration between computers and home theater as time goes on also.

Steve



"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111598459.616751.306880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Bob Miller wrote:
>> USB2 HDTV capable receiver, neat.
>>
>> http/www.digitimes.com/news/a20050315PR205.html
>>
>> by 2025 8-VSB will have products like this. If and when they may
>> actually advertise them also.
>>
>> The rest of the world gets neat DTV products we get a MANDATE that
> force
>> feeds us junk.
>
> This IS junk. The vast majority of HD viewers want to experience the
> viewing on a large scale, not on their 15 or 17" monitors.
>

 

[Badger]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

You go Alex!
Clay
"Alex Perez" <aperez@gmailDAWT.com> wrote in message
news:yRl0e.12001$m31.124547@typhoon.sonic.net...
> Top posting is considered bad usenettiquette. (I do so here to make
this
> point ;-)
>
> RicSeyler wrote:
> > But what is the quality of that videocard conversion circuitry and
> > components...
> Extremely good. Nvidia and ATI have invested large amounts of money
into
> hardware-level HDTV support in their video chipsets.
> > I'd bet not as good as most high end Plasma/DLP/LCD displays or
DVD players
> > and especially the iSCAN HD+.
> You're mixing apples and oranges here.
> >
> > It just wouldn't fit my needs at all, but that's just me.
> Exactly...right tool for the job.
> >
> > Dave Oldridge wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> We-ellll, the thing is, if this device would capture an HDTV
signal
> >> into my computer, my video card is quite capable of spitting out
a
> >> 1080i signal to my big monitor across from my easy chair!
> >>
> >> And popping audio across to the stereo is no big deal either. It
will
> >> even take all six Dolby 5.1 signals on one of its inputs! And
the
> >> sound interface in the computer will deliver it. Plus one would
hope
> >> that the programming could be snaffled to hard drive for
posterity.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Iii0e.2028$gI5.318@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Larry Bud wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> This is after only two years of broadcasting in the UK.

Sorry Bob - you aren't correct. There have been over five years of official
DVB-T broadcasting in the UK DVB-T broadcasts started officially in
November 1998. The BBC, ITV/C4 and SDN/Channel Five all ran FTA services on
three multiplexes, OnDigital had the other three multiplexes for pay-TV
encrypted services. Initially receivers were only available via purchase
(£200+) or subscription (with a box loaned for the period of subscription,
or purchased in the very early days) from ONDigital/ITVDigital - the pay-TV
provider.

FTA only receivers became available just as ITVDigital collapsed - in fact
that is when I bought mine (2001ish?)

Freeview was the system that replaced the half of the UK DVB-T network that
ITV Digital previously had - with the BBC getting 1/3 of this half, and the
other 2/3 of the half going to Crown Castle for commercial, FTA advertising
funded, channels. It took a while for the bidding and re-organisation to
take place, and it launched in the latter half of 2002. However this was
only a re-launch - not the full launch.

However only when Freeview launched did DVB-T really take-off in the UK.

> We have been doing 8-VSB in the US for seven years, where are the
> products? Where are ones that work?

We launched DVB-T at pretty much the same time as 8-VSB officially launched
ATSC in the US. Unofficially the BBC had been running a test DVB-T service,
as I'm sure test ATSC 8-VSB services had been operated, for a number of
years prior to the official launch.

Steve

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111598459.616751.306880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Bob Miller wrote:
>> USB2 HDTV capable receiver, neat.
>>
>> http/www.digitimes.com/news/a20050315PR205.html
>>
>> by 2025 8-VSB will have products like this. If and when they may
>> actually advertise them also.
>>
>> The rest of the world gets neat DTV products we get a MANDATE that
> force
>> feeds us junk.
>
> This IS junk. The vast majority of HD viewers want to experience the
> viewing on a large scale, not on their 15 or 17" monitors.

However a PC with DVB-T or 8-VSB ATSC reception capabilities can make a
pretty good PVR, and is just as capable of feeding a large screen TV via
DVI, HDMI, VGA or Component links. It also allows for easy archiving,
recording scheduling, as well as other "convergence" stuff.

I'm running a DVB-T capture card in a Windows MCE PC (albeit not in HD cos
I'm in the UK). With an RGB VGA->RGB SCART connection, and a custom Windows
mode of 1024x576 feeding my Sony 16:9 28" standard def TV, I have a pretty
neat Home Media Centre, allowing me to record and replay broadcast digital
TV MPEG2, from a decent EPG, burn it losslessly to DVD etc. The RGB picture
quality I get is as good as my set top box.

I imagine many of the benefits of this are relevant to HD as well.

Steve

 

[Richard]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Gordon Burditt" <gordonb.rjjn5@burditt.org> wrote in message
news:4241b987$0$88039$16895aa@news.airnews.net...
>>> "The first one, currently named VideoMate DVB-T Stick, is a digital TV
>>> (DVB-T) receiver."
>>
>>Yawn. DVB-T != HDTV
>>
>>> and it needs a computer with at least "2.4GHz for HDTV"
>>
>>That doesn't say that it can *display* HDTV. It just says that the
>>computer has to be at least 2.4GHz to process an HDTV signal (even if it
>>only displays SD).
>
> I didn't see anything in there about a display *AT ALL*, and the
> term "receiver" to me doesn't imply one. But it's still an interesting
> product for use in a do-it-yourself DVR project.
>
> Aren't there already existing products that fit in a computer, and
> allow the computer to generate a signal you can feed to any HDTV
> monitor and get HDTV resolutions? (outputting what? HDMI, DVI,
> or component video?) In other words, a "HDTV video card" which can
> generate 720p or 1080i pictures. Or am I mistaken about this?

Right you are.

Richard.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111600200.205592.229580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> > It says it's an NTSC tuner. Explain how you get HD over NTSC.
>>
>> Again read the article. "It" is three different receivers.
>>
>> "The first one, currently named VideoMate DVB-T Stick, is a digital
> TV
>> (DVB-T) receiver."
>>
>> and it needs a computer with at least "2.4GHz for HDTV"
>
> So what, DVB-T doesn't necessarily mean HD. It doesn't say it does
> ATSC, however it specifically states it supports NTSC. If it does
> support ATSC, where are the specs? 720p, or 1080i?? And if it does
> support ATSC, what the hell is your beef?

If it is USB2 and supports DVB-T, it is likely that it will support HD in
Australia. USB1 devices are limited by USB1 bandwith restrictions, so don't
have enough capacity to stream HD MPEG2 streams to a PC.

USB2 does, and so USB 2 DVB-T receivers are in demand in Aus, where they are
better suited for HD reception. I believe Hauppauge have just launched a
USB2 version of their Nova-T USB to cater for just this market.

>
> Anyway, it still doesn't solve the issue of a small screen size.

Well that isn't a function of the USB tuner or the PC, just of the display.
PCs are more than capable of driving 1080i/720p 16:9 displays (plasmas,
CRTs, DLPS etc.) via component, VGA, HDMI or DVI interfaces.

Steve

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

MattK wrote:
> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Iii0e.2028$gI5.318@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>Many manufacturers make DVB-T receivers of all kinds. In the UK this list
>>has 91 different models and there are many more not listed.
>>
>>http/www.radioandtelly.co.uk/freeviewreceivers.html
>>
>>This is after only two years of broadcasting in the UK. We have been doing
>>8-VSB in the US for seven years, where are the products? Where are ones
>>that work?
>>
>>Bob Miller
>
>
> The BBC started broadcasting DVB-T services in the UK in mid-1998, not far
> off 7 years ago.... even so we still don't have any HD OTA receivers out of
> that list of 91 products, in fact often they barely manage acceptable SD.
>
>
The present Freeview venture started 2 years and a few months ago.
Before that there was a lower powered, 1/2 kW ERP per transmitter
subscription service. None of these receivers could exist except the one
offered by that company. So these 91 receivers were all born in the last
27 months with more to come.

Here is another USB2 stick COFDM HDTV receiver from Technotrend.

http/www.lavienumerique.com/index.php?preaction=galerie&id_photo=27387&description=TNT%20ou%20DVB-T,%20du%20pareil%20au%20m%EAme%20

Bob Miller

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Mark Crispin" <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in message
newsine.LNX.4.63.0503231012301.16641@shiva1.cac.washington.edu...
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
>> "The first one, currently named VideoMate DVB-T Stick, is a digital TV
>> (DVB-T) receiver."
>
> Yawn. DVB-T != HDTV

It does in Australia...

DVB-T receivers with USB2 rather than USB1 interfaces are required to send
MPEG2 at HD data rates via USB. This is a requirement for Australian HD -
hence they are appearing on the market. Hauppauge also have a DVB-T USB2
solution which is particularly relevant to Aus, where USB 1 DVB-T receivers
can only deliver SD streams.

>
>> and it needs a computer with at least "2.4GHz for HDTV"
>
> That doesn't say that it can *display* HDTV. It just says that the
> computer has to be at least 2.4GHz to process an HDTV signal (even if it
> only displays SD).

However many PCs are capable of running 1280x1024 - which is the 4:3
resolution required to display 1280x720 letterboxed.

AIUI the requirements of the PC for DVB-T USB 2 receivers and 8-VSB ATSC USB
2 receivers are likely to be pretty much the same - and not dissimilar from
their PCI internal equivalents.

I'm not a Bob supporter - but DVB-T doesn't equal Standard Def, any more
than ATSC 8VSB equals High Def. Both are deployed and both can and do carry
standard and high def services. Sure there are more ATSC 8VSB High Def
services than DVB-T High Def services - but it doesn't mean there are none.

Steve

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Stephen Neal" <stephen.neal@nospam.as-directed.com> wrote in message
news:d1t2ea$nm5$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Iii0e.2028$gI5.318@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> Larry Bud wrote:
>>
> [snip]
>>
>> This is after only two years of broadcasting in the UK.
>
> Sorry Bob - you aren't correct. There have been over five years of
> official DVB-T broadcasting in the UK DVB-T broadcasts started officially
> in November 1998.

Doh! And neither am I correct. It's late and I had a brain-fade. Of course
there have been over 6 years of official DVB-T broadcasting in the UK.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

RicSeyler <ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net> wrote in
news:v6l0e.49639$6g7.44912@bignews1.bellsouth.net:

> But what is the quality of that videocard conversion circuitry and
> components...
> I'd bet not as good as most high end Plasma/DLP/LCD displays or DVD
> players and especially the iSCAN HD+.
>
> It just wouldn't fit my needs at all, but that's just me.

I dunno....it looks pretty good on my TV when I render a still pic to 1920
by 1080 out of Vue d'Esprit 5. A can't really fault it there.

(the video card, I mean). I haven't had any HD mpeg or DivX stuff to try
it on with moving stuff, but remember, the actual conversion is not done by
the video card so much as by the computer driving it. I think 2.4ghz 64-
bit CPU with 2 gb of RAM can handle that much arithmetic.

--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

A false witness is worse than no witness at all.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Stephen Neal wrote:
> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Iii0e.2028$gI5.318@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>Larry Bud wrote:
>>
>
> [snip]
>
>>This is after only two years of broadcasting in the UK.
>
>
> Sorry Bob - you aren't correct. There have been over five years of official
> DVB-T broadcasting in the UK DVB-T broadcasts started officially in
> November 1998. The BBC, ITV/C4 and SDN/Channel Five all ran FTA services on
> three multiplexes, OnDigital had the other three multiplexes for pay-TV
> encrypted services. Initially receivers were only available via purchase
> (£200+) or subscription (with a box loaned for the period of subscription,
> or purchased in the very early days) from ONDigital/ITVDigital - the pay-TV
> provider.
>
> FTA only receivers became available just as ITVDigital collapsed - in fact
> that is when I bought mine (2001ish?)
>
> Freeview was the system that replaced the half of the UK DVB-T network that
> ITV Digital previously had - with the BBC getting 1/3 of this half, and the
> other 2/3 of the half going to Crown Castle for commercial, FTA advertising
> funded, channels. It took a while for the bidding and re-organisation to
> take place, and it launched in the latter half of 2002. However this was
> only a re-launch - not the full launch.
>
> However only when Freeview launched did DVB-T really take-off in the UK.

OK November 1st or December 1st 2002 was when the current Freeview was
launched. The ERP transmitter power was doubled on average to, I keep
saying one kW but it is more like 3 kW and a decent group of programs
was offered. How many receivers were available before that?

Bob Miller
>
>
>>We have been doing 8-VSB in the US for seven years, where are the
>>products? Where are ones that work?
>
>
> We launched DVB-T at pretty much the same time as 8-VSB officially launched
> ATSC in the US. Unofficially the BBC had been running a test DVB-T service,
> as I'm sure test ATSC 8-VSB services had been operated, for a number of
> years prior to the official launch.
>
> Steve
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Stephen Neal wrote:
>
>>> Yawn. DVB-T != HDTV
>>
>> It does in Australia...
>
>
> No it doesn't. *Some* DVB-T in Australia is HDTV. Some is not.
>
>> I'm not a Bob supporter - but DVB-T doesn't equal Standard Def, any more
>> than ATSC 8VSB equals High Def. Both are deployed and both can and do
>> carry
>> standard and high def services.
>
>
> Hence the inequality.
>
> This device might be interesting if it is capable of producing a data
> stream from incoming DVB-T broadcast television, and that data stream
> can be rendered on a computer monitor in high definition.
>
> If so, then it looks like the DVB-T world finally has a product that
> does what ATSC tuner cards in the US have done for a few years.
>
> It would be interesting to see what kind of antenna is required for use
> with this card. Bob would have us believe that you just plug the dongle
> into your laptop and voila! you have a portable HDTV that will work in
> your car as you're driving through a tunnel.

That is just about right. Plug a dongle into your laptop and have a
portable HDTV that works in your car as you drive thru a tunnel. On a
USB receiver we demonstrated in Toronto we had an antenna similar to one
you find on a WiFi card. Worked great.

In this video we drove under the UN in what is almost a tunnel on the
East side of Manhattan with perfect reception and drove thru a five
block tunnel under Park Ave. between 33rd and 38th st. with a breakup
for a few seconds just as we were about to exit, not on the video. This
was with one transmitter at one kW below Canal at 6th Ave. Both events
shocked even us since our plan to service New York would have many
transmitters at up to 50 kW each so our receiver would have signals from
at least three and possibly more at any given point. The signal follows
us into the Lincoln Tunnel for a couple blocks before fading. If we had
repeaters near each entrance we think we might achieve reception though
the entire tunnel.

www.viacel.com/bob.wmv

Bob Miller
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http/staff.washington.edu/mrc
> Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
> Si vis pacem, para bellum.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

CKNA wrote:
> We have had USB2 HD tuner in US for over a year. It is Sasem OnAir USB
> HDTV. Besides receiving 8VSB it also does clear QAM from cable and has
> full support for DVHS. It was discontinued couple weeks ago. New model
> is coming out in 2 weeks.
> They also are building a new website. http/www.usbhdtv.com/
>
>
Wouldn't you want to have a seamless overlap of models? Seems ominous
that their site is under construction while they discontinue a model and
wait a few weeks for the new one.

We will see. How does their antenna compare to a WiFi card antenna? Or
do they have to depend on a Silver Sensor or better?

Bob Miller

 

[mattk]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
newsco0e.2281$gI5.1249@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> The BBC started broadcasting DVB-T services in the UK in mid-1998, not
>> far off 7 years ago.... even so we still don't have any HD OTA receivers
>> out of that list of 91 products, in fact often they barely manage
>> acceptable SD.
> The present Freeview venture started 2 years and a few months ago. Before
> that there was a lower powered, 1/2 kW ERP per transmitter subscription
> service.

Not entierly true.

Long before the 'Freeview' consortium was created there were two choices at
launch in 1998; a 'free to view' package of around 15 channels, and a
further subscription service from ONdigital/ITV Digital which subsequently
collapsed.

The national and local free OTA services were always given priority with
digital frequency planning and ended up with better coverage than the
ONdigital subscription package. For example in 1998/99 here in London the
main free to air services were transmitted at 10kW, whilst most of the
subscription services transmitted on multiplexes at 3?kW.

Since it was soon realised that DVB-T reception was hopeless with such low
ERPs a programme of numerous transmitter improvements were started, but not
completed until after the subscription service had collapsed and relaunched
by 'Freeview'. Furthermore they realised that the multiplexes allocated with
the poorest frequencies (i.e. those with highest levels of incoming
co-channel interference and poorer TX characteristics) still wouldn't work
properly so changed the broadcast parameters to a more robust FFT variant to
help.

> None of these receivers could exist except the one offered by that
> company. So these 91 receivers were all born in the last 27 months with
> more to come.
>

There were integrated digital TVs available before 'Freeview' existed which
could receive the free OTA channels. Alternatively you could buy a set-top
box without subscription but they initially cost £400. The lack of cheaper
boxes wasn't helped by the Government who mandated that every set-top box
and integrated digital TV sold in the UK must have conditional access
support for the encrypted subscription service.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, MattK wrote:
> The lack of cheaper
> boxes wasn't helped by the Government who mandated that every set-top box
> and integrated digital TV sold in the UK must have conditional access
> support for the encrypted subscription service.

But, but,...

Psycho Bob Miller says that there's no such thing as a mandate in the UK.
That, even in spite of a socialist government which thoroughly regulates
every other aspect of life, with television the market in the UK is
completely free to choose what it wants without government interference or
mandates! And that's why they choose COFDM, because that's the choice of
a free market! And that's why digital set top boxes which work with
rabbit ears perfectly with no impulse noise problems cost only UKP 18; and
that all those STBs will automatically upgrade to HDTV.

You wouldn't contradict Psycho Bob with facts? Who'da thunk it?!?

-- Mark --

http/staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.