1-Bit Wave File?

curious

Distinguished
Apr 20, 2004
34
0
18,580
0
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs. I have used Adobe Audition and CakeWalk
Pyro. Neither of them work. CakeWalk does have a "bit-depth converter"
as a FX, however, when I try to use it, I get a runtime error and
Cakewalk automatically closes.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

curious11112001@yahoo.com (Curious) writes:

> I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
> and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs.

Why do you want to convert to a 1-bit WAV?
--
% Randy Yates % "Maybe one day I'll feel her cold embrace,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % and kiss her interface,
%%% 919-577-9882 % til then, I'll leave her alone."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org> % 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

On 16 May 2004 14:30:43 -0700, curious11112001@yahoo.com (Curious)
wrote:

>I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
>and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs. I have used Adobe Audition and CakeWalk
>Pyro. Neither of them work. CakeWalk does have a "bit-depth converter"
>as a FX, however, when I try to use it, I get a runtime error and
>Cakewalk automatically closes.


The wave editor in Magix's mp3 maker can do that. But all you get is
noise. Do you understand what bit depth is all about?

Abbedd
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

Curious wrote:

> I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
> and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs. I have used Adobe Audition and CakeWalk
> Pyro. Neither of them work. CakeWalk does have a "bit-depth converter"
> as a FX, however, when I try to use it, I get a runtime error and
> Cakewalk automatically closes.

Do you really want a 1-bit on/off signal or did you mean to ask about
1-bit delta sigma modulation?
 

Tachyon

Distinguished
May 18, 2004
4
0
18,510
0
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

On 2004-05-16, Curious <curious11112001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
> and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs. I have used Adobe Audition and CakeWalk
> Pyro. Neither of them work. CakeWalk does have a "bit-depth converter"
> as a FX, however, when I try to use it, I get a runtime error and
> Cakewalk automatically closes.

The software in the Roland SP-808 lets you do this...in real time,
even. You use a knob to select the number of bits. Plus, it lets you
adjust the sample rate and even whether
or not you want the noise-shaping filter turned on!

p.s. I found this link on Randy Yates' page about noise-shaping...

http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr/noiseb.ps

I think a line from that paper may answer Randy's question about
WHY you want to do this:

"...quantisation of highly correlated signals (such as music) results
in tonal distortion components being added to the signal."

rock and roll,
-N

--
different MP3 every day! http://gweep.net/~shifty/snackmaster
. . . . . . . . ... . . . . . .
"Maybe if you ever picked up a goddamn keyboard | Niente
and compiler, you'd know yourself." -Matthew 7:1 | shifty@gweep.net
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

Tachyon <shiftyATATATsidehack.sat.gweep.net> writes:
> [...]
> p.s. I found this link on Randy Yates' page about noise-shaping...
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr/noiseb.ps
>
> I think a line from that paper may answer Randy's question about
> WHY you want to do this:
>
> "...quantisation of highly correlated signals (such as music) results
> in tonal distortion components being added to the signal."

Hey Tachyon,

So you're assuming that the OP wants to do this in order to implement
some sort of musical effect? An interesting possibility.

My question was intended to be taken at face value. I was asking about
the OP's intention, not implying that one shouldn't do such a thing.
My gut feeling is that he wanted to create a 1-bit delta sigma
bitstream (which won't happen if you merely convert to a 1-bit
stream), but I don't really know. That's why I asked.

> rock and roll,
> -N

Hey Tachyon, nice screen name. I bet the Romulans don't like you
too much, though...
--
% Randy Yates % "The dreamer, the unwoken fool -
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % in dreams, no pain will kiss the brow..."
%%% 919-577-9882 %
%%%% <yates@ieee.org> % 'Eldorado Overture', *Eldorado*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

Tachyon wrote:

>
> I think a line from that paper may answer Randy's question about
> WHY you want to do this:
>
> "...quantisation of highly correlated signals (such as music) results
> in tonal distortion components being added to the signal."


A little understanding can be a dangerous thing.

With a 1 bit PCM data stream, there is effectively no recogisable signal. I
think Randy may have been talking about bit-depths down to around 8 bits.
However even this quanisation noise is not a type of distortion that is
likely to sound in any way pleasant in pretty much any style of music.


geoff
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

"Geoff Wood" <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote in message
news:eRtqc.2892$FN.302696@news02.tsnz.net...
> Tachyon wrote:
>
> > I think a line from that paper may answer Randy's question about
> > WHY you want to do this:
> >
> > "...quantisation of highly correlated signals (such as music) results
> > in tonal distortion components being added to the signal."
>
> A little understanding can be a dangerous thing.
>
> With a 1 bit PCM data stream, there is effectively no recogisable signal. I
> think Randy may have been talking about bit-depths down to around 8 bits.
> However even this quanisation noise is not a type of distortion that is
> likely to sound in any way pleasant in pretty much any style of music.

Even with 1 bit, if properly dithered, you should be able to recognize the
signal, though it will be buried in noise. I'm wondering the OP wants to
convert to some type of SACD (1-bit but very high SR) format?
 

Tachyon

Distinguished
May 18, 2004
4
0
18,510
0
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

On 2004-05-18, Geoff Wood <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:
> Tachyon wrote:
>
>>
>> I think a line from that paper may answer Randy's question about
>> WHY you want to do this:
>>
>> "...quantisation of highly correlated signals (such as music) results
>> in tonal distortion components being added to the signal."
>
>
> A little understanding can be a dangerous thing.
>
> With a 1 bit PCM data stream, there is effectively no recogisable signal. I
> think Randy may have been talking about bit-depths down to around 8 bits.
> However even this quanisation noise is not a type of distortion that is
> likely to sound in any way pleasant in pretty much any style of music.

Fans of the Atari 2600 sound chip TIA beg to differ :) Each of its
voices is capable of about 6 unique waveforms,
each of which is a train of 0's and 1's.

Additionally, square and PWM waveforms, staples of much electronic music,
are 1-bit waveforms.

Curiously enough, the TIA can't quite make 50% duty cycle square
waves, but several close matches, like 15/31 :)

--
different MP3 every day! http://gweep.net/~shifty/snackmaster
. . . . . . . . ... . . . . . .
"Maybe if you ever picked up a goddamn keyboard | Niente
and compiler, you'd know yourself." -Matthew 7:1 | shifty@gweep.net
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

Tachyon wrote:
> On 2004-05-18, Geoff Wood <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:
>
>>Tachyon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I think a line from that paper may answer Randy's question about
>>>WHY you want to do this:
>>>
>>>"...quantisation of highly correlated signals (such as music) results
>>> in tonal distortion components being added to the signal."
>>
>>
>>A little understanding can be a dangerous thing.
>>
>>With a 1 bit PCM data stream, there is effectively no recogisable signal. I
>>think Randy may have been talking about bit-depths down to around 8 bits.
>>However even this quanisation noise is not a type of distortion that is
>>likely to sound in any way pleasant in pretty much any style of music.
>
>
> Fans of the Atari 2600 sound chip TIA beg to differ :) Each of its
> voices is capable of about 6 unique waveforms,
> each of which is a train of 0's and 1's.
>
> Additionally, square and PWM waveforms, staples of much electronic music,
> are 1-bit waveforms.
>
> Curiously enough, the TIA can't quite make 50% duty cycle square
> waves, but several close matches, like 15/31 :)

That's all gobbledygook for all the OP cares. He wants to CONVERT .wav
files to 1-bit form. Either he knows why he wants it, or he doesn't know
what he wants. Either way, talk of TIA and PWM won't help him.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
 

Tachyon

Distinguished
May 18, 2004
4
0
18,510
0
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

On 2004-05-19, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote:
> Tachyon wrote:
>> On 2004-05-18, Geoff Wood <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:
>>
>>>Tachyon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I think a line from that paper may answer Randy's question about
>>>>WHY you want to do this:
>>>>
>>>>"...quantisation of highly correlated signals (such as music) results
>>>> in tonal distortion components being added to the signal."
>>>
>>>
>>>A little understanding can be a dangerous thing.
>>>
>>>With a 1 bit PCM data stream, there is effectively no recogisable signal. I
>>>think Randy may have been talking about bit-depths down to around 8 bits.
>>>However even this quanisation noise is not a type of distortion that is
>>>likely to sound in any way pleasant in pretty much any style of music.
>>
>>
>> Fans of the Atari 2600 sound chip TIA beg to differ :) Each of its
>> voices is capable of about 6 unique waveforms,
>> each of which is a train of 0's and 1's.
>>
>> Additionally, square and PWM waveforms, staples of much electronic music,
>> are 1-bit waveforms.
>>
>> Curiously enough, the TIA can't quite make 50% duty cycle square
>> waves, but several close matches, like 15/31 :)
>
> That's all gobbledygook for all the OP cares. He wants to CONVERT .wav
> files to 1-bit form. Either he knows why he wants it, or he doesn't know
> what he wants. Either way, talk of TIA and PWM won't help him.

Hey man,

I'm just sticking up for 1-bit waveforms!





--
different MP3 every day! http://gweep.net/~shifty/snackmaster
. . . . . . . . ... . . . . . .
"Maybe if you ever picked up a goddamn keyboard | Niente
and compiler, you'd know yourself." -Matthew 7:1 | shifty@gweep.net
 

curious

Distinguished
Apr 20, 2004
34
0
18,580
0
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<u0yfes12.fsf@ieee.org>...
> curious11112001@yahoo.com (Curious) writes:
>
> > I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
> > and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs.
>
> Why do you want to convert to a 1-bit WAV?

I want film-quality sound. By "film quality" I am referring to the
crackling [resembles the sound of burning coal] and lack of clarity in
the audio recordings of old B&W films which used the
variable-intensity recording. I would like to preserve the frequency
response of CD-audio [keep the 44.1 KHz sampling rate], however, I
would like to make it mono and film-quality in terms of the artifacts
mentioned above. For some reason this type of music gets my juices
going.
 

ME

Distinguished
Apr 1, 2004
506
0
18,930
0
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

Curious wrote:

> I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
> and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs. I have used Adobe Audition and CakeWalk
> Pyro. Neither of them work. CakeWalk does have a "bit-depth converter"
> as a FX, however, when I try to use it, I get a runtime error and
> Cakewalk automatically closes.

A + Comparator FlipFlop
I/P -------|\ +------+ Q
| >----------| D Q|---+---- Bitstream out
B +--|/ C +--|> | |
| - | +------+ |
| | |
+-/\/\/\-----)-------------+
| R |
C === |
| Fs---+
0V

Several years ago I made a delay line to delay the audio for a walkie-talkie
so that the Tx VOX voice operated switch and Rx unmute operation would be
completed before the leading word spoken by the operator was transmitted.
I tried a bucket brigade device (MN3001) but had troubles with noise and
limitations on maximum delay.

I tried the cct above as a 1-bit encoder (mentioned in a mag somewhere),
clocked at over 200KHz. I do not know if the cct has a name.

The Q o/p will be either high or low during a clk period, such as to force
the RC LPF voltage at B to trend towards a match with i/p sig A. O/p Q
tends to be strings of 1's or 0's until match is achieved, then become
alternating 1's & 0's (50% PWM) until the i/p signal changes again.


+------+
BitStream --->-----|D Q|--------> ZQ Delayed BitStream
| |
+------+ | |
Fs----| |---->|/RAS |
| |---->|/CAS |
| |---->|/WE |
| | | |
| |---->|A0 |
| PAL |-- |A1 |
| |-- | " |
| |-- | " |
| |-- | " |
| |---->|An |
+------+ +------+

The above cct used a PAL to read the data bit at the current single bit wide
DRAM chip address, the bit thus read having been written on the previous
"lap" of the address counter. The PAL then operated /WE to write the
current Bitstream i/p (0/1) into the current RAM address.

The number of address lines & clock frequency determine the delay and
fidelity which can be achieved. In your application this delay line block
diagram could be implemented by 2 weeks of storage on your hard drive.



R
Delayed BitStream ------/\/\/\----+-----> Recovered audio
|
=== C
|
0V

Recovery of the signal back to analog was by means of another RC LPF of
identical time constant to the one used in the encoder. The idea is that
if BitStream Q LPF's to imitate i/p signal A, then the identical but
delayed BitStream ZQ should LPF to create a signal that looks like A also.


I did once implement the above with a 56K DSP because I could not get
samples of the intended ADC chip. It used software (RC LPF's etc.) for
everything except the comparator (op-amp). It sort of worked, nearly, just
about, almost, but the high interrupt rate interfered with other
interrupt-driven processes, causing jitter & noise on the recovered audio.
It did work well enough to get on with the job until the proper CODEC
arrived.

I think that using the above building blocks, you could write a prog to
encode a WAV file & create a bitstream file. Converting back again should
be quite simple.

Jim Adamthwaite.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

Tachyon wrote:
> On 2004-05-18, Geoff Wood <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:

> Additionally, square and PWM waveforms, staples of much electronic
> music, are 1-bit waveforms.

Bit-depth reducing to 1 bit does not convert PCM into a PWM signal.

geoff
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

"Curious" <curious11112001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:34a4f456.0405191922.1d69cdf6@posting.google.com...
> Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:<u0yfes12.fsf@ieee.org>...
> > curious11112001@yahoo.com (Curious) writes:
> >
> > > I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
> > > and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs.
> >
> > Why do you want to convert to a 1-bit WAV?
>
> I want film-quality sound. By "film quality" I am referring to the
> crackling [resembles the sound of burning coal]

Random noise (of relatively specific types).
Don't see how reducing quantization can accomplish this.
There are actually recordings of "clean" noise that you
can mix into your material to simulate this artifact.

> and lack of clarity in
> the audio recordings of old B&W films which used the
> variable-intensity recording.

Distortion, bandwidth restriction, etc. Distortion might be
simulated by reducing bit-depth, but likely better ways.

Of course true "1-bit" audio is indistinguishable from
random noise.
 

cjt

Distinguished
Mar 30, 2004
66
0
18,580
0
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

Curious wrote:

> Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<u0yfes12.fsf@ieee.org>...
>
>>curious11112001@yahoo.com (Curious) writes:
>>
>>
>>>I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
>>>and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs.
>>
>>Why do you want to convert to a 1-bit WAV?
>
>
> I want film-quality sound. By "film quality" I am referring to the
> crackling [resembles the sound of burning coal] and lack of clarity in
> the audio recordings of old B&W films which used the
> variable-intensity recording. I would like to preserve the frequency
> response of CD-audio [keep the 44.1 KHz sampling rate], however, I
> would like to make it mono and film-quality in terms of the artifacts
> mentioned above. For some reason this type of music gets my juices
> going.

You could probably reproduce that effect in more or less the manner it
was first created by modulating a light bulb and detecting it with a
photocell. I don't think the film added much but static from dirt,
and you could probably get that by spraying dust through the beam. It
actually might be a fun experiment.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

"Geoff Wood" <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> writes:

> Geoff Wood wrote:
>> Tachyon wrote:
>>> On 2004-05-18, Geoff Wood <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:
>>
>>> Additionally, square and PWM waveforms, staples of much electronic
>>> music, are 1-bit waveforms.
>>
>> Bit-depth reducing to 1 bit does not convert PCM into a PWM signal.
>>
>
> On the other hand, I guess it does,

Absolutely it does not. A PWM signal has the property that at
time n*T the signal begins at a high state for p*T seconds and
ends at a low state for (1-p)*T seconds, 0 <= p <= 1. A 1-bit
bitstream does not have this property.

Many people seem to have this misconception that a delta sigma
bitstream is a PWM waveform. It is not - they are two different
animals.
--
% Randy Yates % "I met someone who looks alot like you,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % she does the things you do,
%%% 919-577-9882 % but she is an IBM."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org> % 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

curious11112001@yahoo.com (Curious) writes:

> Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<u0yfes12.fsf@ieee.org>...
>> curious11112001@yahoo.com (Curious) writes:
>>
>> > I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
>> > and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs.
>>
>> Why do you want to convert to a 1-bit WAV?
>
> I want film-quality sound. By "film quality" I am referring to the
> crackling [resembles the sound of burning coal] and lack of clarity in
> the audio recordings of old B&W films which used the
> variable-intensity recording. I would like to preserve the frequency
> response of CD-audio [keep the 44.1 KHz sampling rate], however, I
> would like to make it mono and film-quality in terms of the artifacts
> mentioned above. For some reason this type of music gets my juices
> going.

Hi Curious,

That is a realistic goal, and I believe you can achieve it with some
type of digital signal processing, but I don't believe simply reducing
the bit-depth will accomplish the effect you're looking for.

The problem is that the type of noise signal you want has a very
different character than quantization noise. Quantization noise has a
uniform probability distribution. What you want will have very large
"tails" in its distribution. I am speaking here in terms that may be
unfamiliar to you, but that should be familiar to a DSP engineer.

I can't recall ever seeing any study or research that characterized
the noise from a film soundtrack. Robert, have you ever seen this in
your dealings with the AES?
--
% Randy Yates % "Bird, on the wing,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % goes floating by
%%% 919-577-9882 % but there's a teardrop in his eye..."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org> % 'One Summer Dream', *Face The Music*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote in message
news:10aola6pnbau090@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Of course true "1-bit" audio is indistinguishable from
> random noise.

Not really. DSD is one bit (at a very high sampling rate) and certainly doesn't
sound like random noise. Even with "regular" sample rates such as 44.1kHz, so
you can still recognize properly-dithered audio at very low bit depths (even 1
bit). The audio is buried in noise, just like it would sound if you recorded at
very low levels on a medium such as cassette tape, but the ear is pretty good at
pulling out the real sound from the noise.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,comp.dsp (More info?)

Curious wrote:

> Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<u0yfes12.fsf@ieee.org>...
>
>>curious11112001@yahoo.com (Curious) writes:
>>
>>
>>>I am looking for audio software that allows conversion of 16-bit WAVs
>>>and 8-bit WAVs to 1-bit WAVs.
>>
>>Why do you want to convert to a 1-bit WAV?
>
>
> I want film-quality sound. By "film quality" I am referring to the
> crackling [resembles the sound of burning coal] and lack of clarity in
> the audio recordings of old B&W films which used the
> variable-intensity recording. I would like to preserve the frequency
> response of CD-audio [keep the 44.1 KHz sampling rate], however, I
> would like to make it mono and film-quality in terms of the artifacts
> mentioned above. For some reason this type of music gets my juices
> going.

You may be able to get this effect with a program like CoolEditPro which
can merge a wide variety of distortion effects into your original sound.
One of the built-in distortion settings may produce the type of sound
you are after or you can create your own distortion.

If you own one of these noisy films, record the sound from a section of
film that has mostly noise and no audio. A program like CoolEditPro can
extract the noise from the film section and merge it into any other
sound file you have.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY