American Airlines Pilots to Start Using iPads This Week

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ta152h

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[citation][nom]diellur[/nom]jacekring,Your calc assumes 200 pounds of weight for your ticket, but you don't account for the proportion of weight of the aircraft you're also paying for. That weight includes structure, avionics, interior, fuel and (amongst a lot of other things) the flight manuals. You need to think of the total cost to in tickets to fill the plane versus the cost to operate it for that flight, then work out what proportion of the cost is allocated to the manuals.American Airlines in 1987 removed 1 olive from every meal in first-class for every flight. So that's about 50 olives per flight and that saved them approximately $40,000 that year. 1 olive = 0.004 lbs50 olives = 0.22 lbsAssume 100 flights a year (in reality it's more but this is just to see how it scales up):100 flights * 0.22 lbs removed = 22 lbs removed Removing 22 lbs over 100 flights saves $40k. Over 100 flights, this is $1,818/lb/flight.Flight manuals = 20 lbsIf we removed flight manuals, weight saved over 100 flights is 2,000 lbs.Savings by removing flight manuals / cost of carrying flight manuals over 100 flights = 2,000 lbs * $1,818/lb/flight = $3.64M.It's not hard to see how removing 20lbs of payload from the aircraft per flight can save $1M/year in a real-world scenario.[/citation]

Illogical, he's right, you're wrong. You're completely obfuscating everything with your made up numbers, and fluff.

Plain reality, the planes aren't going to change their structure because of 20 pounds of manuals. Everything will remain the same, except for the manuals. To save a million dollars a year, let's assume even 500 flights, you'd have save $2000 per flight on 20 pounds of paper.

Sorry, you're wrong. Not only that, you're very wrong. They'd be charging people by the pound if that were the case. They'd also have treadmills as part of the basic equipment in the cockpit instead of iPads.

Try all your fancy footwork instead of admitting you're wrong. It's only going to fool fools. Hell, I could argue the 20 pound manuals save money because they burn calories while they move them, and if you add up all those calories over the lifetime of a pilot, it adds up to more than 20 pounds of calories. It's not hard to be confusing and make up stupid stuff. But, it's not helpful.
 

alcalde

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[citation][nom]ajkritch[/nom]Actually, the cost of buying several hundred iPads is a one-time investment. Continually carrying around up to 20 pounds of paper charts costs an airline over $1m in fuel per aircraft per year.[/citation]

Your making that statistic up. By that logic, adding one 120 pound steward(ess) to the roster costs them $6 million dollars a year before salary and benefits.
 

alcalde

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Am I the only one who isn't comfortable with the idea of airplane flight manuals running out of battery power or locking up?
 
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forget battery power and lock ups. if my pilot needs to take 5 minutes out of his day for an emergency to look in the manual - clearly he doesn't have enough flight time!
 

okibrian

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[citation][nom]Zagen30[/nom]"Just wondering; does that mean passengers can now also use their iPads during 'all phases of the flight' ?"No. From what I understand, the ban on electronics during takeoff/landing isn't so much about interference with traffic control signals (other than phones, which definitely could interfere), but that they don't want loose objects smacking people during those phases (and they are more likely to move around when the plane suddenly tilts up or down or banks in one direction).[/citation]
Oh, but reading a book is cool? I would think a hard cover to the head would hurt too.
 

danwat1234

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[citation][nom]alcalde[/nom]Am I the only one who isn't comfortable with the idea of airplane flight manuals running out of battery power or locking up?[/citation]

I'm sure there will be AC adapter plugs built into the cockpit so they can keep it on the charger easily
 

ajkritch

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I heard the million dollar statistic second hand, I admit, but even if the real loss is 20x less than that - an iPad is still a superb investment.
 

diellur

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[citation][nom]ta152h[/nom]Illogical, he's right, you're wrong. You're completely obfuscating everything with your made up numbers, and fluff.Plain reality, the planes aren't going to change their structure because of 20 pounds of manuals. Everything will remain the same, except for the manuals. To save a million dollars a year, let's assume even 500 flights, you'd have save $2000 per flight on 20 pounds of paper.Sorry, you're wrong. Not only that, you're very wrong. They'd be charging people by the pound if that were the case. They'd also have treadmills as part of the basic equipment in the cockpit instead of iPads.Try all your fancy footwork instead of admitting you're wrong. It's only going to fool fools. Hell, I could argue the 20 pound manuals save money because they burn calories while they move them, and if you add up all those calories over the lifetime of a pilot, it adds up to more than 20 pounds of calories. It's not hard to be confusing and make up stupid stuff. But, it's not helpful.[/citation]

1) I never said that the structure of the aircraft would change. I said that the manuals were part of the aircraft's dry weight, which is part of what the cost of your ticket goes towards paying.

2) Google 'American Airlines savings olive', and you'll see a real-world example. I've not made anything up.

3) FYI, as I stated, I'm an aeronautical engineer. I know what I'm talking about and I have an education plus industry experience to back it up.

4) Dividing one number by the other then seeing a big number which doesn't make sense to you isn't engineering (your $2k). You could take the $1M and divide it by 10,000 flights (realistic for a large, world-wide carrier) and get $100 saved per flight. That's realistic, at first glance. So I've applied the same maths as you and got a more realistic result but we can't both be right. Try and be objective and see that your theory is wrong in the first place. And to counter the obvious response, my theory isn't wrong as it's backed up by a real-world example. See 2.

5) If you are right, find me a real-life example to back yourself up instead of just getting forum rage.
 

zak_mckraken

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[citation][nom]diellur[/nom]divide it by 10,000 flights (realistic for a large, world-wide carrier)[/citation]
I don't want to get it on the debate, I'm have so much fun just reading, but this, really? You think it's realistic to say that a plane, whatever the size/class, can make an average of 27.4 flights a day? That is an average flight of 52 minutes. And all of this without take-offs, landings, fueling and maintenance. For an engineer, you sure fail at maths.
 

diellur

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[citation][nom]zak_mckraken[/nom]I don't want to get it on the debate, I'm have so much fun just reading, but this, really? You think it's realistic to say that a plane, whatever the size/class, can make an average of 27.4 flights a day? That is an average flight of 52 minutes. And all of this without take-offs, landings, fueling and maintenance. For an engineer, you sure fail at maths.[/citation]

10,000 flights for the whole fleet, not just one aircraft. You might have 50 aircraft, but if they're all operating within the same envelope you combine them.
 

diellur

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[citation][nom]zak_mckraken[/nom]If I'm to believe this MIT study which I half-read after a 3 seconds Google search, a plane would make an average of 3.9 flights/day, or 1414 flights/year, which would translate into a $707 saved per flight. Far from your numbers. That's a lot of money to move paper around.http://web.mit.edu/airlines/analys [...] ustry.htmlBut please, go on.[/citation]

Not too sure what you're getting at? I had a skim through the article but couldn't see where those numbers came from.
 

zak_mckraken

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If get back to the comment that started it all :

Actually, the cost of buying several hundred iPads is a one-time investment. Continually carrying around up to 20 pounds of paper charts costs an airline over $1m in fuel per aircraft per year.

Per aircraft. Not for a whole fleet.

As for the numbers, they're from this excerpt : "US airlines reported over $160 billion in total revenues, with approximately 545,000 employees and over 8,000 aircraft operating 31,000 flights per day"

31,000 for 8,000 aircrafts averages 3,875/flights a day per aircraft.
3,875 flights/day x 365 days = 1414,375 flights a year per aircraft.
$1,000,000 in savings divided by 1414,375 flights a year equals to $707.03 in savings per flight.
 

diellur

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[citation][nom]zak_mckraken[/nom]If get back to the comment that started it all :per aircraft. Not for a whole fleet.As for the numbers, they're from this excerpt : "US airlines reported over $160 billion in total revenues, with approximately 545,000 employees and over 8,000 aircraft operating 31,000 flights per day"31,000 for 8,000 aircrafts averages 3,875/flights a day per aircraft.3,875 flights/day x 365 days = 1414,375 flights a year per aircraft.$1,000,000 in savings divided by 1414,375 flights a year equals to $707.03 in savings per flight.[/citation]

$1M per aircraft is unlikely...more likely to be the saving overall, considering the fleet. Same for your calcs (thanks for that...makes sense).
 

diellur

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[citation][nom]jacekring[/nom]oh and the $520 price is off season, in season you can expect to pay over $1,000 per seat.[/citation]

Quoted this one as it's shorter!

Good figures. Let's play...730 flights a year, and let's say we've removed 20lbs of payload per flight. That's removing 14,600lbs over those flights. Using 200lbs per passenger (ignoring their contribution to paying for aircraft weight etc for a moment), that works out at 73 passengers. At $500/ticket, that's $36,500 per year per aircraft.

To make a $1M saving, that would be 27.3 aircraft, so let's call it 28 aircraft. I don't think a saving of $1M is unreasonable, over a fleet of 28 aircraft, by removing 20lbs of payload per flight.
 

diellur

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Sorry, not sure how to edit...just to be clear, that would be a saving for the FLEET. Which is what American Airways calculated their savings over, and what I've been banging on about...just wanted to make that clear, as I mis-read earlier.
 

diellur

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You're correct. I'll be 100% honest...I trained in a specific area, and it's not often I get to chat about it, especially on a PC forum. I saw the comment and mis-read slightly and responded accordingly, given it was an area I'm familiar with...case of the mouth kicking off before the brain was engaged to a certain extent. Any offence caused, I apologise...I think in the end we were agreeing strongly. Any errors were my own. :)
 

fb39ca4

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diellur :
jacekring,Your calc assumes 200 pounds of weight for your ticket, but you don't account for the proportion of weight of the aircraft you're also paying for. That weight includes structure, avionics, interior, fuel and (amongst a lot of other things) the flight manuals. You need to think of the total cost to in tickets to fill the plane versus the cost to operate it for that flight, then work out what proportion of the cost is allocated to the manuals.American Airlines in 1987 removed 1 olive from every meal in first-class for every flight. So that's about 50 olives per flight and that saved them approximately $40,000 that year. 1 olive = 0.004 lbs50 olives = 0.22 lbsAssume 100 flights a year (in reality it's more but this is just to see how it scales up):100 flights * 0.22 lbs removed = 22 lbs removed Removing 22 lbs over 100 flights saves $40k. Over 100 flights, this is $1,818/lb/flight.Flight manuals = 20 lbsIf we removed flight manuals, weight saved over 100 flights is 2,000 lbs.Savings by removing flight manuals / cost of carrying flight manuals over 100 flights = 2,000 lbs * $1,818/lb/flight = $3.64M.It's not hard to see how removing 20lbs of payload from the aircraft per flight can save $1M/year in a real-world scenario.



Illogical, he's right, you're wrong. You're completely obfuscating everything with your made up numbers, and fluff.

Plain reality, the planes aren't going to change their structure because of 20 pounds of manuals. Everything will remain the same, except for the manuals. To save a million dollars a year, let's assume even 500 flights, you'd have save $2000 per flight on 20 pounds of paper.

Sorry, you're wrong. Not only that, you're very wrong. They'd be charging people by the pound if that were the case. They'd also have treadmills as part of the basic equipment in the cockpit instead of iPads.

Try all your fancy footwork instead of admitting you're wrong. It's only going to fool fools. Hell, I could argue the 20 pound manuals save money because they burn calories while they move them, and if you add up all those calories over the lifetime of a pilot, it adds up to more than 20 pounds of calories. It's not hard to be confusing and make up stupid stuff. But, it's not helpful.
Have you considered that this may not be the cost per plane but the cost per fleet?
 
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