Can anyone take a good photograph?

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"Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote in news:S6nAd.77$uc.40972
@twister.southeast.rr.com:

> There is not art without breaking the rules.

Sounds nice - but means nothing.


/Roland
 
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Roland Karlsson esponds:>"Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote in
news:S6nAd.77$uc.40972
>@twister.southeast.rr.com:
>
>> There is not art without breaking the rules.
>
>Sounds nice - but means nothing.

Reverse it and it may make sense. There is no art without rules. In that sense,
IMO, photography is very much like painting. You've got to know how to draw a
correct figure, and paint it, before you can become Picasso, distorting the
figure for effect.

Charlie Self
"A politician is an animal which can sit on a fence and yet keep both ears to
the ground." H. L. Mencken
 

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Art IS breaking the rules. If you live within them you make decortions. That
may mean nothing to you but an artist will understand it intrinsically -
which is why the history of art is littered with hacks who stuck to the
rules and only made "acceptable" art. They made the safe and sure and are
largely forgotten. The innovators - the crazy people who broke the rules are
the people we remember now - van Gogh, Matisse, Picasso, da Vinci, etc. The
people who created, as opposed to the people who just worked the trade. The
hacks and their acolates laughed at the Impressionists, called the Cubists
psychotic, etc etc etc. Listen to a concerto by Scalieri, Mozart's more
successful rival in Vienna. There is much knowledge of the rules in his
composition, but nothing to remember.
95 percent of all art is hackwork. Those are the rule followers.

--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html

"Roland Karlsson" <roland_dot_karlsson@bonetmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95CE80992F064klotjohan@130.133.1.4...
> "Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote in news:S6nAd.77$uc.40972
> @twister.southeast.rr.com:
>
> > There is not art without breaking the rules.
>
> Sounds nice - but means nothing.
>
>
> /Roland
 
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Tony wrote:

> Art IS breaking the rules.

Is that your rule?

Who the hell are you?
 
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"Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote in news:Z4CAd.321$uc.136556
@twister.southeast.rr.com:

> Art IS breaking the rules.

Is that a rule?


/Roland
 
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Charlie Self wrote:
> Roland Karlsson esponds:>"Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote in
> news:S6nAd.77$uc.40972
>
>>@twister.southeast.rr.com:
>>
>>
>>> There is not art without breaking the rules.
>>
>>Sounds nice - but means nothing.
>
>
> Reverse it and it may make sense. There is no art without rules. In that sense,
> IMO, photography is very much like painting. You've got to know how to draw a
> correct figure, and paint it, before you can become Picasso, distorting the
> figure for effect.

I might agree with you if it were not for a monkey that painted some
par-out paintings that were exhibited and sold. Ah, the art world.

nick

>
> Charlie Self
> "A politician is an animal which can sit on a fence and yet keep both ears to
> the ground." H. L. Mencken
 
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Mike Henley wrote:
> Tony wrote:
>
>>Art IS breaking the rules. If you live within them you make
>
> decortions. That
>
>>may mean nothing to you but an artist will understand it
>
> intrinsically -
>
>>which is why the history of art is littered with hacks who stuck to
>
> the
>
>>rules and only made "acceptable" art. They made the safe and sure and
>
> are
>
>>largely forgotten. The innovators - the crazy people who broke the
>
> rules are
>
>>the people we remember now - van Gogh, Matisse, Picasso, da Vinci,
>
> etc. The
>
>>people who created, as opposed to the people who just worked the
>
> trade. The
>
>>hacks and their acolates laughed at the Impressionists, called the
>
> Cubists
>
>>psychotic, etc etc etc. Listen to a concerto by Scalieri, Mozart's
>
> more
>
>>successful rival in Vienna. There is much knowledge of the rules in
>
> his
>
>>composition, but nothing to remember.
>> 95 percent of all art is hackwork. Those are the rule followers.
>
>
> You evidently know the history of art, so yes, from someone like you, I
> would agree with the notion that "Art IS breaking the rules", given
> that i know what you mean. Though I would perhaps prefer it had you
> used a term such as "advancing" or "redefining" rather than breaking;
> for those artistic innovators, they knew the rules too well, that they
> knew their place in history and their limitations, and they worked
> beyond them, each triggering a movement in his wake. What I have a
> problem with is the new bastardized version of "Art is breaking the
> rules" that refuses the notion that art is a discipline, and whose idea
> of "art" is random pretentious nonsense, you know, the 'artsy fartsy'
> crowd.
>
> With regard to the innovators, I personally think a key feature that
> set them apart from the '95% tradesmen' was that they were the masters
> of their own aesthetic universe and they did what pleased their
> sensibilities, rather than the '95% hacks' who generally worked
> according to the rules and tastes of others.
>

There is a fine line between what is considered art and what is
considered trash and rules have a great deal to do with creative
acceptance. IMOP, those who tend to think esoterically may oftentimes be
confused as to not recognizing a rule is being applied in support of a
technique which is being born. Oh, to burst self-made images of
sophistication.

Begin at the beginning; what is art.

Art is defined and accepted as being works of human creativity. One of
the recognized branches of art encompass, music, dance, literature, and
painting. There are rules in each of these categories.

Dance: The rule of dance is rhythm. The rule of Intervals in a which
recurring sequence of events take place.

Music: The rule of music is the musical scale. Within the use of the
musical scale is the rule time.

Literature: The rule of literature is governed by style, requiring a
subject.

Painting: An action of applying paint to a surface. The rule of painting
may be seen in technique and subject form.


No thanks. Rules apply. To think they don't is indeed foolish.

nick




>
>
>>--
>>http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
>> home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
>> The Improved Links Pages are at
>> http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
>> A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at
>>http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
>>
>>"Roland Karlsson" <roland_dot_karlsson@bonetmail.com> wrote in
>
> message
>
>>news:Xns95CE80992F064klotjohan@130.133.1.4...
>>
>>>"Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote in news:S6nAd.77$uc.40972
>>>@twister.southeast.rr.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>> There is not art without breaking the rules.
>>>
>>>Sounds nice - but means nothing.
>>>
>>>
>>>/Roland
>
>
 
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Don Lathrop wrote:
> Tony wrote:
>
>
>>Art IS breaking the rules.
>
>
> Is that your rule?
>
> Who the hell are you?
>
>

One who can't tell the difference between an artistic rule and a
technique or style. :)

nick
 

Tony

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It is the LAW!

--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html

"Roland Karlsson" <roland_dot_karlsson@bonetmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95CEDBD7FE7C6klotjohan@130.133.1.4...
> "Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote in news:Z4CAd.321$uc.136556
> @twister.southeast.rr.com:
>
> > Art IS breaking the rules.
>
> Is that a rule?
>
>
> /Roland
 
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"Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote in news:YXKAd.5454$aM4.1133280
@twister.southeast.rr.com:

> It is the LAW!

Are you for real?

I mean - if it is the ultimate rule that you shall
break the rules. What happens if you break that
rule? I.e. if you follow rules?


/Roland
 

Tony

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I know from past discussions that you are not very bright, Roland but you
have outdone yourself with stupidity this time.
Get a job in accounting, son. You will never be a photographer - a
writer, a painter, a sculptor, or even a greeting card artist. You are too
rigid to even know when you've been lampooned. (CLUE - YOU ARE THE ONE
MAKING ALL THE STUPID RULES).
Go forth and add up columns of numbers - they have no sense of adventure,
happily obey strong rules, never contradict anything even on the most basic
level and don't ever argue with your assinine prounouncements. It's a good
income too.

--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html

"Roland Karlsson" <roland_dot_karlsson@bonetmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95CF653934C04klotjohan@130.133.1.4...
> "Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote in news:YXKAd.5454$aM4.1133280
> @twister.southeast.rr.com:
>
> > It is the LAW!
>
> Are you for real?
>
> I mean - if it is the ultimate rule that you shall
> break the rules. What happens if you break that
> rule? I.e. if you follow rules?
>
>
> /Roland
 
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"Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote in
news:suWAd.15351$kc6.843477@twister.southeast.rr.com:

> I know from past discussions that you are not very bright, Roland

Well - thank you.

> but you
> have outdone yourself with stupidity this time.

One tries to do the best.

> Get a job in accounting, son. You will never be a photographer - a
> writer, a painter, a sculptor, or even a greeting card artist. You are
> too rigid to even know when you've been lampooned. (CLUE - YOU ARE THE
> ONE MAKING ALL THE STUPID RULES).
> Go forth and add up columns of numbers - they have no sense of
> adventure,
> happily obey strong rules, never contradict anything even on the most
> basic level and don't ever argue with your assinine prounouncements.
> It's a good income too.

Now --- please tell me o almighty

Is it a rule thet you shall not follow rules?

I really want to know.



/Roland
 

Confused

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> There is not art without breaking the rules.

Those breaking artists are rule making.

(just a bit confused...it doesn't have to be art any more)
 

Confused

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Hmmm...I'll bite de'art:

> > > There is not art without breaking the rules.
> >
> > Sounds nice - but means nothing.
>
> Reverse it and it may make sense.

The rules breaking without art, there is not.

Sense may make it, and it reverse.

> There is no art without rules.

I lost my rule book... anyone have a spare?

> In that sense, IMO, photography is very much like painting.

Goody... I'm a Painter! I'm a painter!

> You've got to know how to draw a correct figure,
> and paint it, before you can become Picasso,

And to become a Picasso one must suffer from visual migraines.

> distorting the figure for effect.

Picasso painted, sculpted, what he saw.
His life was one huge headache.

Jeff - Not as confused as I was a few minutes ago...
 
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"Confused" <somebody@someplace.somenet> wrote in message
news:gkn8t0piob1crfo4d7kn18tnm0eemne913@4ax.com...
>
> Hmmm...I'll bite de'art:
>
> > > > There is not art without breaking the rules.
> > >
> > > Sounds nice - but means nothing.
> >
> > Reverse it and it may make sense.
>
> The rules breaking without art, there is not.
>
> Sense may make it, and it reverse.

Thank you...Yoda!

:)
 

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<snip> author information...wouldn't want to embarrass anyone...

> There is a fine line between what is considered
> art and what is considered trash

I guess Picasso proved there was no line between trash
and art. Some of his best work came from trash heaps.

> and rules have a great deal to do with creative acceptance.

What is "creative acceptance"?

> IMOP, those who tend to think esoterically may oftentimes be
> confused as to not recognizing a rule is being applied in
> support of a technique which is being born. Oh, to burst
> self-made images of sophistication.

Translation, please?

> Begin at the beginning; what is art.
>
> Art is defined and accepted as being works of human creativity.

If that is the definition of art, then there are NO rules.

> One of the recognized branches of art encompass, music,
> dance, literature, and painting. There are rules in
> each of these categories.

(this should be interesting)

> Dance: The rule of dance is rhythm. <snip sequencing>

If there were *one* rule it would be balance.

> Music: The rule of music is the musical scale.
> Within the use of the musical scale is the rule time.

You're not a musician, huh.

> Literature: The rule of literature is governed by style,
> requiring a subject.

But, what is the rule?

> Painting: An action of applying paint to a surface.
> The rule of painting may be seen in technique and subject form.

But, what is the rule of painting?

> No thanks. Rules apply. To think they don't is indeed foolish.

No thanks to what? You have mixed confusing statements, creative
verbalism, drifting subjects, obfuscation, jiberish and a bit of mumbo
jumbo into one post. It must be art!

Jeff
 

Confused

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RPD Jeopardy

Jeff: I'll take RPD for $100 Alex

Alex: One who take this thread seriously.

[que music]

[time passes]

[BZZT]

Jeff: Alex, What is ...

> One who can't tell the difference between
> an artistic rule and a technique or style.

;^)
 
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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:47:37 GMT, "Tony" <tspadaro@nc.rr.com> wrote:

>Art IS breaking the rules. If you live within them you make decortions.

This is the Romantic view of art. It is definitely not the only view
of art that exists. It was unheard of before Romanticism and its
apotheosis of the Lone Artistic Genius, who in addition preferably
shouldn't be properly understood by his own contemporaries. And by and
large, this rather conceited view of art has caused more harm than
good since its inception.

A musical master like Johann Sebastian Bach created great work - just
as great as Mozart's - by strictly abiding to all the rules of
composition that he learnt in his youth. His composing sons thought
that the old man was frightfully out of fashion and not up to the
times. And Mozart

Still, it is his "oldfashioned", rule-abiding, music that has
survived, and very little of Carl Philipp Emanuel's, or Wilhelm
Friedemann's or Johann Christian's.

Art isn't primarily about either abiding by rules, or breaking them.
It is about creating life. Whether you manage to do this within a set
of established rules, or by creating new ones is immaterial. The same
goes for hackery. These days, you will find just as many hacks
cluelessly breaking rules as there are hacks cluelessly abiding by
them.

And at least in music, the real innovators rarely made great art
themselves. It took others to perfect the new rule systems that the
innovators had established. Mozart, whom you mention, is a case in
point. He wasn't much of an innovator himself - at least not up to his
last works, where he starts to experiment quite boldly with long
sequences of dissonances. The rule-breakers, whose rules he abided to,
were people a generation older - for example the brothers Stamitz of
Mannheim, or his own father Leopold. He used their rules. He simply
made better music than them. It was only when he felt that he had
exhausted the possibilities of the old rules that he started
experimenting himself.

Please also realise that for every great artist derided in his day as
a wacko, there are hundreds of derided wackos in their day who are
regarded as nothing but hacks today - if they are considered at all.

Innvation per se is certainly no ticket to artistic greatness.

Jan Böhme
(a newbie in this group, and a relative newbie in photography, but
with reasonable experience of most aspects of music)
 
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Confused wrote:
> <snip> author information...wouldn't want to embarrass anyone...
>
>
>>There is a fine line between what is considered
>>art and what is considered trash
>
>
> I guess Picasso proved there was no line between trash
> and art. Some of his best work came from trash heaps.

That so? What trash heaps did they come from?

>
>
>>and rules have a great deal to do with creative acceptance.
>
>
> What is "creative acceptance"?

What you like, you like.

>
>
>>IMOP, those who tend to think esoterically may oftentimes be
>>confused as to not recognizing a rule is being applied in
>>support of a technique which is being born. Oh, to burst
>>self-made images of sophistication.
>
>
> Translation, please?

Doesn't need one.

>
>
>>Begin at the beginning; what is art.
>>
>>Art is defined and accepted as being works of human creativity.
>
>
> If that is the definition of art, then there are NO rules.

There are rules, but you have the option not to recognize them.

>
>
>>One of the recognized branches of art encompass, music,
>>dance, literature, and painting. There are rules in
>>each of these categories.
>
>
> (this should be interesting)
>
>
>>Dance: The rule of dance is rhythm. <snip sequencing>
>
>
> If there were *one* rule it would be balance.

Don't know much about dancing, huh.

>
>
>>Music: The rule of music is the musical scale.
>>Within the use of the musical scale is the rule time.
>
>
> You're not a musician, huh.

I play Clarinet. Judging from your comments you're not a musician. Huh.

>
>
>>Literature: The rule of literature is governed by style,
>>requiring a subject.
>
>
> But, what is the rule?

Hey, who else holds your hand during the day. The rule of literature
requires a subject.

>
>
>>Painting: An action of applying paint to a surface.
>>The rule of painting may be seen in technique and subject form.
>
>
> But, what is the rule of painting?
>
>
>>No thanks. Rules apply. To think they don't is indeed foolish.
>
>
> No thanks to what? You have mixed confusing statements, creative
> verbalism, drifting subjects, obfuscation, jiberish and a bit of mumbo
> jumbo into one post. It must be art!
>
> Jeff

As I said before. Oh to burst self-made images of sophistication.
 

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> >
> > > > > There is not art without breaking the rules.
> > > >
> > > > Sounds nice - but means nothing.
> > >
> > > Reverse it and it may make sense.
> >
> > The rules breaking without art, there is not.
> >
> > Sense may make it, and it reverse.
>
> Thank you...Yoda!

I do have my moments, Luke. May the force be with you.

Beware the light - follow it not - a trick it is.

:)