"Although not quite as successful as Epic Games in regards to licensing its game engine" this may be true, i'm not sure, but all i can say is that i've played alot more games based on ID tech than Epic, however Epic is certainly dominating at the moment, mostly cause they do multiplatform whereas ID only do PC. we will see how long Epic can drag PC Engine tech down to the console level as crytek and valve continue to pave the way for PC.
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reichscythe
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[citation][nom]matt87_50[/nom]"...we will see how long Epic can drag PC Engine tech down to the console level as crytek and valve continue to pave the way for PC.[/citation]
Um...hate to burst bubbles here, but uh...Crytek IS dragging it's engine tech down to the console level with CryENGINE 3 (let's not forget, not long ago, Cervat Yerli said Crytek would be "linking its technology development cycle with console cycles") and Valve's SOURCE engine is about 4,000 years old-- Have you seen the L4D 2 screenshots?? My god! I swear they look a modicum better than a Dreamcast title!
Um...hate to burst bubbles here, but uh...Crytek IS dragging it's engine tech down to the console level with CryENGINE 3 (let's not forget, not long ago, Cervat Yerli said Crytek would be "linking its technology development cycle with console cycles") and Valve's SOURCE engine is about 4,000 years old-- Have you seen the L4D 2 screenshots?? My god! I swear they look a modicum better than a Dreamcast title!
reichscythe
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eccentric909
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[citation][nom]roofus[/nom]My point is they had a built in customer base (pretty large one) that they squandered and instead of blaming themselves, they blame "piracy". Is that so hard for you to understand?[/citation]
But.. they are making more money off of the console market than they were in the PC market. How is it squandering? It's always good business sense to go where the money is. Yes, it is a slap in the face to fans.. unfortunately most companies aren't in it for the fans, they're in it for the money.
I know what I'm about to mention is a touchy subject with PC gamers, of which I am PC gamer who has built his own PCs for 15 or more years, but also enjoy my consoles. But, how come so many software companies are claiming that piracy is a huge reason they're not developing mainly for the PC or not at all.. yet all PC Gamers say this is BS and because they just fail with their software?
Could it actually be one of the main reasons they actually have stopped developing for the PC and PC-only gamers just wish it wasn't the case?
How come more and more companies say that piracy is a reason they've stopped developing exclusively for PCs, yet PC gamers will never believe it and just say they fail as a company? Could it be that the consoles actually bring them in more money because of the user base/distribution method and because there is less piracy. Not just because they're trying to slap PC gamers in the face and/or are terrible programmers? Maybe piracy is a bigger problem than PC gamers would like to believe it is?
I don't know... I enjoy multi-platform gaming and have never felt the way the die-hard PC gamers do about software developers changing platforms. That doesn't mean I'm right and PC gamers are wrong. Far from it, but I'm willing to look at both sides of the issue. I do know that when I was a broke teenager that it was much, much easier to download a PC game illegally, than it was to copy a console game.. referring to Super Nintendo/Genesis -> PS1 era. I only started playing consoles again towards the end of the PS2/XBox1 lifecycles, because graphics and gameplay were finally getting better in relation to the PC. While still the PC offers superior graphics and better gameplay for certain types of games, there are just some games I'd rather play on a console (fighting games/hack n' slash/action RPG).
I know you can mod a console and copy games illegally as well, but I prefer not to void warranties and now that I'm not a broke teenager, can afford to pay for the games I play on all of the systems (including PC games). However, for most people just grabbing a console from the shelf, or buying a PC from say Best Buy, I would think it's going to be easier to pirate PC games rather than console games. You don't have to mod a PC to play pirated games (just download a crack), you do however either need to buy a modded console or crack it open and mod it yourself.
Whether that matters or not, I do not know. I just get confused why PC-only gamers always shout to developers/publishers "Liars, it's not piracy, you just suck", when so many different companies have stated the same thing about piracy.
But.. they are making more money off of the console market than they were in the PC market. How is it squandering? It's always good business sense to go where the money is. Yes, it is a slap in the face to fans.. unfortunately most companies aren't in it for the fans, they're in it for the money.
I know what I'm about to mention is a touchy subject with PC gamers, of which I am PC gamer who has built his own PCs for 15 or more years, but also enjoy my consoles. But, how come so many software companies are claiming that piracy is a huge reason they're not developing mainly for the PC or not at all.. yet all PC Gamers say this is BS and because they just fail with their software?
Could it actually be one of the main reasons they actually have stopped developing for the PC and PC-only gamers just wish it wasn't the case?
How come more and more companies say that piracy is a reason they've stopped developing exclusively for PCs, yet PC gamers will never believe it and just say they fail as a company? Could it be that the consoles actually bring them in more money because of the user base/distribution method and because there is less piracy. Not just because they're trying to slap PC gamers in the face and/or are terrible programmers? Maybe piracy is a bigger problem than PC gamers would like to believe it is?
I don't know... I enjoy multi-platform gaming and have never felt the way the die-hard PC gamers do about software developers changing platforms. That doesn't mean I'm right and PC gamers are wrong. Far from it, but I'm willing to look at both sides of the issue. I do know that when I was a broke teenager that it was much, much easier to download a PC game illegally, than it was to copy a console game.. referring to Super Nintendo/Genesis -> PS1 era. I only started playing consoles again towards the end of the PS2/XBox1 lifecycles, because graphics and gameplay were finally getting better in relation to the PC. While still the PC offers superior graphics and better gameplay for certain types of games, there are just some games I'd rather play on a console (fighting games/hack n' slash/action RPG).
I know you can mod a console and copy games illegally as well, but I prefer not to void warranties and now that I'm not a broke teenager, can afford to pay for the games I play on all of the systems (including PC games). However, for most people just grabbing a console from the shelf, or buying a PC from say Best Buy, I would think it's going to be easier to pirate PC games rather than console games. You don't have to mod a PC to play pirated games (just download a crack), you do however either need to buy a modded console or crack it open and mod it yourself.
Whether that matters or not, I do not know. I just get confused why PC-only gamers always shout to developers/publishers "Liars, it's not piracy, you just suck", when so many different companies have stated the same thing about piracy.
Regulas
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@Crom "mostly cause they do multi-platform whereas ID only do PC"
While this use to be true John Carmack's new Tech 5 engine is suppose to be multi-platform including the PS3. He demonstrated it at a Apple WWDC I believe and it is suppose to be very easy to write a game in it and publish it seamlessly to all platforms.
While this use to be true John Carmack's new Tech 5 engine is suppose to be multi-platform including the PS3. He demonstrated it at a Apple WWDC I believe and it is suppose to be very easy to write a game in it and publish it seamlessly to all platforms.
reichscythe
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[citation][nom]Eccentric909[/nom] But, how come so many software companies are claiming that piracy is a huge reason they're not developing mainly for the PC or not at all.. yet all PC Gamers say this is BS and because they just fail with their software? ... How come more and more companies say that piracy is a reason they've stopped developing exclusively for PCs, yet PC gamers will never believe it and just say they fail as a company?[/citation]
I don't think anyone's saying piracy isn't a problem, but rather, claims of piracy on PC are often exaggerated by companies who seek to justify the development and deployment of ridiculous DRM schemes that don't have to exist on consoles simply because consoles ARE DRM devices.
That aside, I think the real issue, is that PC gamers are more likely to understand that 'piracy' is far too frequently used as a generic excuse in the justify lack-luster sales of shoddy/poorly optimized/mediocre/or just plain over-hyped PC products. No one shouted that Piracy was the reason for the utter sales failure of Bionic Commando--no no no, the devs, publishers, and reviewers all discussed every possible contributing socio-economic factor, deliberated about market trends, and made mention of possible design flaws that led to the game's fate. But if Bionic Commando was a failed PC exclusive, you could bet your entire net worth that the FIRST statement out of everyone's mouth would be how "piracy is killing PC gaming!!" And regardless of any other factors that might've caused the game's failure, all the talking-heads would crunch as many numbers as possible to demonstrate how it was ultimately piracy --and piracy alone-- that brought down another PC game.
I don't think anyone's saying piracy isn't a problem, but rather, claims of piracy on PC are often exaggerated by companies who seek to justify the development and deployment of ridiculous DRM schemes that don't have to exist on consoles simply because consoles ARE DRM devices.
That aside, I think the real issue, is that PC gamers are more likely to understand that 'piracy' is far too frequently used as a generic excuse in the justify lack-luster sales of shoddy/poorly optimized/mediocre/or just plain over-hyped PC products. No one shouted that Piracy was the reason for the utter sales failure of Bionic Commando--no no no, the devs, publishers, and reviewers all discussed every possible contributing socio-economic factor, deliberated about market trends, and made mention of possible design flaws that led to the game's fate. But if Bionic Commando was a failed PC exclusive, you could bet your entire net worth that the FIRST statement out of everyone's mouth would be how "piracy is killing PC gaming!!" And regardless of any other factors that might've caused the game's failure, all the talking-heads would crunch as many numbers as possible to demonstrate how it was ultimately piracy --and piracy alone-- that brought down another PC game.
reichscythe
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^Incidentally, UT3...? WAAAAYYY overhyped... lovely engine (if you can get past that horrendous, massive pre-loading texture pop-in), and not a bad game... but few gamers in my circle either purchased it OR pirated it... (and the few who bought it waited for the big price drop on Steam)
majorlaggg
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Here's why (I think) PC's have seen their best days as a gaming platform, and why consoles (possibly) are the inheritors of the once proud PC gaming domain:
Benefit to Users
=================
1. Level playing field.
2. Fewer or NO Cheaters on consoles.
3. No high server costs. (don't cry to me about $50 annually for XBL. that's cheap for what you get. Have you priced a high-end gaming server lately?
4. No community organization(recruiting)and management(drama mediation.)*Paying for the server is one thing, populating it regularly is a whole separate issue.*
5. No separate voice server. (teamspeak)
6. No game choking anti-cheat software (punkbuster)
7. No self matchmaking. (trying to find a worthy clan to play with)
8. No ridiculously high upgrade costs for the life cycle of the
console. (some PC enthusiasts I know are so addicted to PC hardware they have to upgrade monthly with stuff they don't even use or know how to use.)
9. Split-screen.
10. Big screen.
11. Sofa.
12. No crumbs in your keyboard.
13. No hemorrhoids.
14. No lame home office isolation.
Benefit to Devs and Publishers
==============================
1. Consoles are more affordable and accessible to the mainstream. (resulting in more money for games which results in more game sales.)
2. No guess work for hardware requirements.
3. Minimal customer support.
4. Higher total sales thanks to rentals.
5. Captive marketing.
6. Lower costs overall.
Even retailers would probably prefer not to have to carry PC games. They aren't packaged as securely, and they probably suffer a lot of grief and damaged product due to compatibility issues and the like.
If I missed any please feel free to add to this list. Or totally counter it. Debate is healthy.
Benefit to Users
=================
1. Level playing field.
2. Fewer or NO Cheaters on consoles.
3. No high server costs. (don't cry to me about $50 annually for XBL. that's cheap for what you get. Have you priced a high-end gaming server lately?
4. No community organization(recruiting)and management(drama mediation.)*Paying for the server is one thing, populating it regularly is a whole separate issue.*
5. No separate voice server. (teamspeak)
6. No game choking anti-cheat software (punkbuster)
7. No self matchmaking. (trying to find a worthy clan to play with)
8. No ridiculously high upgrade costs for the life cycle of the
console. (some PC enthusiasts I know are so addicted to PC hardware they have to upgrade monthly with stuff they don't even use or know how to use.)
9. Split-screen.
10. Big screen.
11. Sofa.
12. No crumbs in your keyboard.
13. No hemorrhoids.
14. No lame home office isolation.
Benefit to Devs and Publishers
==============================
1. Consoles are more affordable and accessible to the mainstream. (resulting in more money for games which results in more game sales.)
2. No guess work for hardware requirements.
3. Minimal customer support.
4. Higher total sales thanks to rentals.
5. Captive marketing.
6. Lower costs overall.
Even retailers would probably prefer not to have to carry PC games. They aren't packaged as securely, and they probably suffer a lot of grief and damaged product due to compatibility issues and the like.
If I missed any please feel free to add to this list. Or totally counter it. Debate is healthy.
Ogdin
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Benefit to users
=========================
3 High server costs? You need your own server why? Any game worth a damn has there own matchmaking service.
8 The cost of gaming Pc's has been dropping big time thanks mainly to the lower gpu prices.If you have any kind of decent computer to begin with your basically just buying a video card to start gaming.
9 Split screen is crap,use your own damn screen.
10 Big screen can be used for pc too.
11 Sofa,about as comfy as a nice computer chair.
12 No crumbs in your keyboard.....stop eating at the computer?
13 If you wanna skip the hemorroids see #11
Benefit to Devs and Publishers
======================================
1 Yup consoles are more affordable,but they are limited in there range of use.
2 Can't argue that one
3 Same as #2
4 Sure
5 Sure
6 Lower costs sure,but console games are generally lower quality games.It better cost less to make them.
Game types:
Racing games are good on both
Console Strengths
1 Sports,the stronghold of consoles
2 Scroll type games also console strong point
3 Fighting games,mostly because they only get made for consoles.
Pc
1 RTS has always been better on PC and will probably always be,you can just do more with a PC
2 FPS another mainstay of PC's
3 Roleplaying games
4 MMO's
=========================
3 High server costs? You need your own server why? Any game worth a damn has there own matchmaking service.
8 The cost of gaming Pc's has been dropping big time thanks mainly to the lower gpu prices.If you have any kind of decent computer to begin with your basically just buying a video card to start gaming.
9 Split screen is crap,use your own damn screen.
10 Big screen can be used for pc too.
11 Sofa,about as comfy as a nice computer chair.
12 No crumbs in your keyboard.....stop eating at the computer?
13 If you wanna skip the hemorroids see #11
Benefit to Devs and Publishers
======================================
1 Yup consoles are more affordable,but they are limited in there range of use.
2 Can't argue that one
3 Same as #2
4 Sure
5 Sure
6 Lower costs sure,but console games are generally lower quality games.It better cost less to make them.
Game types:
Racing games are good on both
Console Strengths
1 Sports,the stronghold of consoles
2 Scroll type games also console strong point
3 Fighting games,mostly because they only get made for consoles.
Pc
1 RTS has always been better on PC and will probably always be,you can just do more with a PC
2 FPS another mainstay of PC's
3 Roleplaying games
4 MMO's
reichscythe
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[citation][nom]majorlaggg[/nom]Here's why (I think) PC's have seen their best days as a gaming platform, and why consoles (possibly) are the inheritors of the once proud PC gaming domain[/citation]
The idea that consoles will "inherit" and/or "replace" computers in the gaming domain is ultimately a short-sighted notion because, as we've seen--and will continue to see with each console iteration-- consoles are simply becoming PCs. Within a generation or two, all the "advantages" that consoles now claim, will be completely erased as they evolve into (or are replaced by) gaming capable HTPCs... we're seeing the consoles' oft touted advantages erode already: Remember how console gamers used to say things like, "Well, at least I don't have to patch my games, they work straight out of the box!" or "Well, at least I can just put my game right in and it plays, I don't have to wait for an install!" or "My console never crashes because it doesn't have a complex OS, all it does is play games!" As the consoles increase in complexity--and they must, to continue serving the increasingly varied entertainment needs of the consumer--they will cease to exist as "consoles," they will be FORCED to become fully capable media PCs. How much money do you think a company like SONY can afford to lose on R&D and production of Billion-Dollar-Loss console projects like the PS3? Do you think that, as competition in the console market increases (and it WILL, especially now that MS has its foothold), companies will actually stand to make MORE money by producing game boxes?? Soon enough, companies like SONY and Microsoft will go the way of SEGA--licensing software, and more wisely use their purse power to bolster profits on software and peripheral devices, rather than losing money by generating costly console hardware. (Let Intel, IBM, nVidia and ATi fight expensive hardware /R&D battles--since they're going to duke it out regardless, why should SONY and MS lose money in the fray?)
The idea that consoles will "inherit" and/or "replace" computers in the gaming domain is ultimately a short-sighted notion because, as we've seen--and will continue to see with each console iteration-- consoles are simply becoming PCs. Within a generation or two, all the "advantages" that consoles now claim, will be completely erased as they evolve into (or are replaced by) gaming capable HTPCs... we're seeing the consoles' oft touted advantages erode already: Remember how console gamers used to say things like, "Well, at least I don't have to patch my games, they work straight out of the box!" or "Well, at least I can just put my game right in and it plays, I don't have to wait for an install!" or "My console never crashes because it doesn't have a complex OS, all it does is play games!" As the consoles increase in complexity--and they must, to continue serving the increasingly varied entertainment needs of the consumer--they will cease to exist as "consoles," they will be FORCED to become fully capable media PCs. How much money do you think a company like SONY can afford to lose on R&D and production of Billion-Dollar-Loss console projects like the PS3? Do you think that, as competition in the console market increases (and it WILL, especially now that MS has its foothold), companies will actually stand to make MORE money by producing game boxes?? Soon enough, companies like SONY and Microsoft will go the way of SEGA--licensing software, and more wisely use their purse power to bolster profits on software and peripheral devices, rather than losing money by generating costly console hardware. (Let Intel, IBM, nVidia and ATi fight expensive hardware /R&D battles--since they're going to duke it out regardless, why should SONY and MS lose money in the fray?)
majorlaggg
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Um... isn't that what I said only with a little more left to the imagination? They are PC's now. So I'm pretty sure we are in agreement. The main difference will be that they will be less problematic (in terms of user error and compatibility) and they will all be the same. So thanks for reinforcing what I have already said.
majorlaggg
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Oh and as far as MMORPG's and RTS's go, I have one 4 words... Motion or Gesture Control. (project Natal / Magic Wand / Wiimote)
datawrecker
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[citation][nom]majorlaggg[/nom]Um... isn't that what I said only with a little more left to the imagination? They are PC's now. So I'm pretty sure we are in agreement. The main difference will be that they will be less problematic (in terms of user error and compatibility) and they will all be the same. So thanks for reinforcing what I have already said.[/citation]
Not true anymore. There are at least 3 hardware changes in the 360 as well at tons of updates to keep the games running. Even the PS3 recently made some major changes and marketed it as the PS3 Slim. Marketing is where the consoles biggest wins are coming from. How else can you explain why people gladly pay $200+ for a modified X700 video card?
[citation][nom]majorlaggg[/nom]Oh and as far as MMORPG's and RTS's go, I have one 4 words... Motion or Gesture Control. (project Natal / Magic Wand / Wiimote)[/citation]
Four word. Natal works with Windows.
Not true anymore. There are at least 3 hardware changes in the 360 as well at tons of updates to keep the games running. Even the PS3 recently made some major changes and marketed it as the PS3 Slim. Marketing is where the consoles biggest wins are coming from. How else can you explain why people gladly pay $200+ for a modified X700 video card?
[citation][nom]majorlaggg[/nom]Oh and as far as MMORPG's and RTS's go, I have one 4 words... Motion or Gesture Control. (project Natal / Magic Wand / Wiimote)[/citation]
Four word. Natal works with Windows.
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