Guitar doubling

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"Jay Kadis" <jay@ccrma.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:jay-2E899A.14003011012005@news.stanford.edu...
> In article <OumdnegkppdjoHncRVn-uw@adelphia.com>,
> "reddred" <opaloka@REMOVECAPSyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > <ot7doc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1105418366.881586.97230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > As a rule of thumb, should doubled tracks be panned hard left and
> > > right? Or does that lead to danger of making the lead vocal too
> > > isolated in the middle?
> > >
> >
> > I tend to use both tracks to fill exactly the space I want filled. If
you
> > pan hard right and left, the whole soundstage will be filled.
> >
> > jb
> >
> >
>
> Not in my experience. I find that double tracked guitar hard-panned
leaves the
> center of the soundstage open for drums/vocals. This does not work for
tracks
> that are artificially doubled, but for tracks actually played twice.
>
> -Jay

I hadn't thought of that, I assumed he was talking about duplicates. Usually
I'll duplicate tracks and pan them slightly away from each other in order to
make them 'bigger' in relation to the other tracks, or blend duplicates with
slight processing differences as a technique to get the sound I want. A part
that is played twice has a real musical function though, and I think it's a
lot harder to find space in the mix for that.

jb

 

[bc4]

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In article <1105510167.236873.235690@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
b.lessard@comcast.net says...
<snip>
> Did you ever try a 4 part harmony with each note sung 4 - 6 times on
> each side? That's over 32 voices altogether. I did this with a band
> called the "Tax Collectors back in the 80's on a 1 inch Tascam bouncing
> back and forth. It was great fun and everyone was very happy with the
> results. I even added a little artificial doubling to that with the
> chorus setting on a Yamaha SPX-90. The sound was pretty cool and
> different than anything that you could do with artificial doubling
> alone. The final mix sounded pretty tight (3 piece hard rock band with
> wild thrashing guitar) and I think all that doubling of the backgrounds
> helped give the lead and background vocals their own space in the mix.
> Sorry if I went a little off topic here!

I've been listening to the latest Def L, I mean, Shania Twain CD (it was
a gift, honest!) and the backing vocals sound more like a vocoder-type
effect than many multiple tracks of actual human singing.
--

Imagining a world with no hypothetical situations
BC Project - www.bcproject.com

 

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<ot7doc@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hearing the bit about novice panning (above) has me anxious. I like
> the sound, but I don't know if I'm allowed to trust myself. Hence my
> quest for the fundamentals of panning.

Trust yourself, but move your mixes around to various playback systems
to see how you're doing outside yoru own place. That way you'll learn
when that trust has been misplaced. <g>

If you're trying to place the guitars before the vox are cut you'll be
taking some pretty longshots, and you'll have plenty of misses. But if
you're working with all the elements together, go for what you like and
then chekc it out elsewhere.

--
ha

 

[GeorgeH]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich) writes:

>If you're trying to place the guitars before the vox are cut you'll be
>taking some pretty longshots, and you'll have plenty of misses. But if
>you're working with all the elements together, go for what you like and
>then chekc it out elsewhere.

Or if you MUST track the guitars 1st, record a rough vocal guide
track. You can replace it later, but it will help you judge
your guitar tracks.

 

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It seems like the more you track a vocal or instrument, the more you
need a talented performer. I've heard Enya sometimes does over a
hundred vocal tracks, but she's Enya. But then, I haven't experimented
much with multiple tracks. It does sound cool to try.

 

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"reddred" <opaloka@REMOVECAPSyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sZqdneLyp6qmDnjcRVn-1w@adelphia.com...

>>It's not harder to find a space in the mix for that,
>> really... it should be easier. Think about it - a real life, "doubled"
> track
>> vs. a cloned/timeshifted/pseudo-doubled track. It will add depth to the
> mix;
>> hence, generating even more space to work with.
>>
>
> I'm not sure I folow. The posts above were about having to pan hard left
> and
> hard right so one could have some space in the mix.

What I was saying - maybe I didn't elucidate well enough - is that (IMO,
anyway) the doubled parts, if doubled by playing both parts, will interact
with each other in a different way than will cloned doubled parts. The
cloning creates a constant differential in all respects between the cloned &
the original track (unless you break up the waveform & nudge different
segments of it in different increments, apply different or automated
dynamics processing to each of those segments, etc); while doubling by
playing creates something more interesting - the very slight varying time
shifts between each note/chord/whatever, slightly different degrees of
vibrato (if applicable), slightly different degrees of dynamics, slightly
different sustain of each note or chord, etc. Now, we're talking very, very,
very small degrees here - assuming if you've got a good player & he's trying
to double it tight - but nonetheless, there are obviously going to be these
slight differences in all these areas, and to me (again, YMMV) that creates
the perception of more space in the middle than a
cloned/nudged/processed-slightly-differently track does.

Not that there's anything wrong with what you've described, but - and maybe
this is just me since I'm a guitarist, and it could be an idiosycracy of
mine - I tend to like a real doubled part much better; I think all these
very slight variances I mentioned add more real energy to the mix. Kinda
like having an actual violin section in a recording of a symphony instead of
recording one violin & cloning it a dozen times.

Neil Henderson




>
> I never pan much besides reverb to the edges. Hard panned instruments are
> way too 1969 for me. I'll go 4 and 8 oclock all the time, though.
>
> jb
>
>
>

 

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"Neil Henderson" <neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:IdkFd.1461$2e7.693@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "reddred" <opaloka@REMOVECAPSyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:sZqdneLyp6qmDnjcRVn-1w@adelphia.com...
>
> >>It's not harder to find a space in the mix for that,
> >> really... it should be easier. Think about it - a real life, "doubled"
> > track
> >> vs. a cloned/timeshifted/pseudo-doubled track. It will add depth to the
> > mix;
> >> hence, generating even more space to work with.
> >>
> >
> > I'm not sure I folow. The posts above were about having to pan hard left
> > and
> > hard right so one could have some space in the mix.
>
> What I was saying - maybe I didn't elucidate well enough - is that (IMO,
> anyway) the doubled parts, if doubled by playing both parts, will interact
> with each other in a different way than will cloned doubled parts. The
> cloning creates a constant differential in all respects between the cloned
&
> the original track (unless you break up the waveform & nudge different
> segments of it in different increments, apply different or automated
> dynamics processing to each of those segments, etc); while doubling by
> playing creates something more interesting - the very slight varying time
> shifts between each note/chord/whatever, slightly different degrees of
> vibrato (if applicable), slightly different degrees of dynamics, slightly
> different sustain of each note or chord, etc. Now, we're talking very,
very,
> very small degrees here - assuming if you've got a good player & he's
trying
> to double it tight - but nonetheless, there are obviously going to be
these
> slight differences in all these areas, and to me (again, YMMV) that
creates
> the perception of more space in the middle than a
> cloned/nudged/processed-slightly-differently track does.
>

I don't disagree at all. That's not why I duplicate parts when I'm mixing. I
do it because it makes it easier to get the sound I want even when I'm
working with thin pres. It helps me shape the sound and settle it into the
mix.

> Not that there's anything wrong with what you've described, but - and
maybe
> this is just me since I'm a guitarist, and it could be an idiosycracy of
> mine - I tend to like a real doubled part much better; I think all these
> very slight variances I mentioned add more real energy to the mix. Kinda
> like having an actual violin section in a recording of a symphony instead
of
> recording one violin & cloning it a dozen times.

All good. You're not talking about mixing though, you're talking about
arranging. Most of the time a listener won't hear my doubled or tripled
parts. They'll just hear 'Guitar' or 'Singer'. When I do what you're talking
about, I might double those too, if I want a fuller sound. Some people rely
on compression for this. That's fine too, sometimes I use a compressor if it
does what I want.

jb

 

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<ot7doc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1105577109.712813.272130@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> It seems like the more you track a vocal or instrument, the more you
> need a talented performer. I've heard Enya sometimes does over a
> hundred vocal tracks, but she's Enya. But then, I haven't experimented
> much with multiple tracks. It does sound cool to try.

On one hand you do need a **reasonably** talented performer, but OTOH, it's
really no different than someone playing tight in a band context. Any good
player can do it... if they're not USED to doing it, it might take them a
few tries to get the hang of it & a few punches to mimic the phrasing & ends
of notes exactly here & there. And yeah if you haven't messed with it much,
you ought to try it just to learn something new & possibly very useable for
certain things you may work on.

Neil Henderson