Guitar doubling

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As a rule of thumb, should doubled tracks be panned hard left and
right? Or does that lead to danger of making the lead vocal too
isolated in the middle?
 
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ot7doc@yahoo.com wrote:
> As a rule of thumb, should doubled tracks be panned hard left and
> right? Or does that lead to danger of making the lead vocal too
> isolated in the middle?
Need more info on that one..I mean how is the bass sound? Or the drums?
Psycadelic ambient type stuff is usually nice with hard panning but you
always have to reference it on another set of moniters, (a car,boom
box, etc...) to know for sure. Try duplicating the tracks and playing
with the levels while panned opposite. It's fun. Rock-n-Roll is
sometimes a whole nuther ball game too.
-thepaganjournalist
 
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<ot7doc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1105418366.881586.97230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> As a rule of thumb, should doubled tracks be panned hard left and
> right? Or does that lead to danger of making the lead vocal too
> isolated in the middle?

Who cares, as long as it works for the mix in question? If hard-panning
works, then do it, if not, then don't. With regard to your question about
lead vocals, you can usually "find the pocket" for vox, regardless of any
instruments are hard-panned or not. Sometimes it's more challenging than
others, depending on how the vocals were recorded (i.e. some mics just don't
want to "sit well" in a mix), but there's always a spot for one voice, IMO.
A couple other things to consider are:
1.) Are the guitar parts you're planning to hard-pan identical to each
other, or at least close enough to where you wouldn't be distracted upon
hearing the two parts positioned so widely spaced from each other?
2.) If they're identical, are they actually played tight enough to where
they will still sound "tight" when panned that far apart?
3.) If they're not identical, but do indeed have some intentional
differences between them, are there other things/instruments that you could
pan accordingly to balance out the spectrum on each side? IOW, you wouldn't
necessarily want all your low end parts on the left & all your high-end
parts on the right for each instrument... or maybe you might :D

Neil Henderson
 
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<ot7doc@yahoo> wrote:

> As a rule of thumb, should doubled tracks be panned hard left and
> right?

There is no rule of thumb for this; you can place them where you like
the way they sound in the mix.

> Or does that lead to danger of making the lead vocal too
> isolated in the middle?

This could depend more on the arrangement of the song than on placement
of the doubled guitars, understanding that both of those elements work
together, or not. What are you hearing in your mix that leads to this
query?

--
ha
 
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There is no "rule of thumb" except - If it sounds good, do it!

As always, I recommend checking in mono to see if you like the way it
sounds and to make sure the vocal still stands out or sits correctly in
the mix. Also, try panning at closer points and listening on different
systems.

Hope this helps.

Larry Lessard
 
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>As a rule of thumb, should doubled tracks be panned hard left and
>right?

No rule of thumb. Do what sounds good.

Mark
"In this business egos can be wonderful, but they also can be a curse."
Michael Wagener
 
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<ot7doc@yahoo.com> wrote:

> As a rule of thumb, should doubled tracks be panned hard left and
> right? Or does that lead to danger of making the lead vocal too
> isolated in the middle?

"Should" is not a word that can be used here.
However if it helps I find that if you keep them together, unless they
are closely doubled, they can sound confused and muddy.

If you split them it can make things sound over produced.
(I over produce eveything so no worries there!)

Take your pick.

The other thing - with all panning don't think that you have to go hard
left and right. Or even symetrical. Listen to the overall balance and
see what works.

Dave
 
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<ot7doc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1105418366.881586.97230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> As a rule of thumb, should doubled tracks be panned hard left and
> right? Or does that lead to danger of making the lead vocal too
> isolated in the middle?
>

I tend to use both tracks to fill exactly the space I want filled. If you
pan hard right and left, the whole soundstage will be filled.

jb
 
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In article <OumdnegkppdjoHncRVn-uw@adelphia.com>,
"reddred" <opaloka@REMOVECAPSyahoo.com> wrote:

> <ot7doc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1105418366.881586.97230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > As a rule of thumb, should doubled tracks be panned hard left and
> > right? Or does that lead to danger of making the lead vocal too
> > isolated in the middle?
> >
>
> I tend to use both tracks to fill exactly the space I want filled. If you
> pan hard right and left, the whole soundstage will be filled.
>
> jb
>
>

Not in my experience. I find that double tracked guitar hard-panned leaves the
center of the soundstage open for drums/vocals. This does not work for tracks
that are artificially doubled, but for tracks actually played twice.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x
 
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Jay Kadis wrote:

> Not in my experience. I find that double tracked guitar hard-panned leaves the
> center of the soundstage open for drums/vocals. This does not work for tracks
> that are artificially doubled, but for tracks actually played twice.

Right. Artificially doubled (without any kind of random effect) just
fills up the whole soundstage with a wierd phase shift effect happening
from left to right (or right to left).
 
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It's mostly rock for me. A Vines type sound. It seems to me they
double all their guitar tracks, and I'm guessing the tracks are hard
panned, though I don't have the ears to tell for sure.
BTW, this new googlegroups format is sa-weet.
 
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Pretty near identical. And pretty tight. I think hard panning is a
pretty good sound for what I'm doing. But I hear that novices have to
be careful about stranding the vocals up the barren middle, so since
I'm a novice I'm wary.
 
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Hearing the bit about novice panning (above) has me anxious. I like
the sound, but I don't know if I'm allowed to trust myself. Hence my
quest for the fundamentals of panning.
 
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I used to think artificial doubling sounded good. I can't believe that.
 
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I like it. And I love overproduction. Other than his freaky violent
streak, Phil Spectre rules.
 
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Well, if you really are going for the type of sound the The Vines have,
it doesn't sound like they are using artificial doubling. IT is a
pretty straightforward ambient kind of sound. Try recording the 2
guitar tracks each with a close mic and another mic at least 20 feet
away in a pretty live room if possible. Then pan your close mics hard
left/right and the ambient mics hard right/left. This will give you a
natural ambient sound with hard panning on the rhythm guitar tracks but
the ambient tracks will help to fill up the space more.
 
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ot7...@yahoo.com wrote...

I like it. And I love overproduction. Other than his
freaky violent
streak, Phil Spectre rules.


Well, do you want to get a natural sound like The Vines like a real
band playing in front of you or do you want a PHil Spector kind of
sound? Maybe try for something completely new!

Try playing the guitar part 1, 2, 3 or 4 times on each side and then
add artificial doubling ar a stereo chorus to that. Try a direct box
and amped sound together or use the one that fits best with the other
tracks. Take that sound and send it to 2 different amps and add that to
the sound or just use the amped with the ambient sound. Try micing the
amps close, taking direct outs from the head or a mic in the middle 40
feet away. Try different combinations of all these sounds. Maybe you'll
find a unique sound that really fits the song or maybe you'll just
learn something along the way.

You never know what anything might sound like until you try it. Maybe
that sounds like a lot of work to some people but it sounds like a lot
of fun to me. (Note - If you're paying for studio time it might not be
practical to experiment like this)

I've tracked the same guitar part on both sides as many as 8 times. IT
can sound pretty cool and if the guitar player is playing it almost
exactly the same every time it can sound like just one doubled track.
Of course, with anything you try, it has to be appropriate for the
song. I've also done this with background vocals with great results.

Did you ever try a 4 part harmony with each note sung 4 - 6 times on
each side? That's over 32 voices altogether. I did this with a band
called the "Tax Collectors back in the 80's on a 1 inch Tascam bouncing
back and forth. It was great fun and everyone was very happy with the
results. I even added a little artificial doubling to that with the
chorus setting on a Yamaha SPX-90. The sound was pretty cool and
different than anything that you could do with artificial doubling
alone. The final mix sounded pretty tight (3 piece hard rock band with
wild thrashing guitar) and I think all that doubling of the backgrounds
helped give the lead and background vocals their own space in the mix.
Sorry if I went a little off topic here!
 
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ot7...@yahoo.com wrote...

I like it. And I love overproduction. Other than his
freaky violent
streak, Phil Spectre rules
..

Well, do you want to get a natural sound like The Vines like a real
band playing in front of you or do you want a PHil Spector kind of
sound? Maybe try for something completely new!

Try playing the guitar part 1, 2, 3 or 4 times on each side and then
add artificial doubling ar a stereo chorus to that. Try a direct box
and amped sound together or use the one that fits best with the other
tracks. Take that sound and send it to 2 different amps and add that to
the sound or just use the amped with the ambient sound. Try micing the
amps close, taking direct outs from the head or a mic in the middle 40
feet away. Try different combinations of all these sounds. Maybe you'll
find a unique sound that really fits the song or maybe you'll just
learn something along the way.

You never know what anything might sound like until you try it. Maybe
that sounds like a lot of work to some people but it sounds like a lot
of fun to me. (Note - If you're paying for studio time it might not be
practical to experiment like this)

I've tracked the same guitar part on both sides as many as 8 times. IT
can sound pretty cool and if the guitar player is playing it almost
exactly the same every time it can sound like just one doubled track.
Of course, with anything you try, it has to be appropriate for the
song. I've also done this with background vocals with great results.

Did you ever try a 4 part harmony with each note sung 4 - 6 times on
each side? That's over 32 voices altogether. I did this with a band
called the "Tax Collectors back in the 80's on a 1 inch Tascam bouncing
back and forth. It was great fun and everyone was very happy with the
results. I even added a little artificial doubling to that with the
chorus setting on a Yamaha SPX-90. The sound was pretty cool and
different than anything that you could do with artificial doubling
alone. The final mix sounded pretty tight (3 piece hard rock band with
wild thrashing guitar) and I think all that doubling of the backgrounds
helped give the lead and background vocals their own space in the mix.
Sorry if I went a little off topic here!
 
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I've had good results by recording 2 passes of an edgy guitar sound,
like a Marshall or Johnson, hard panning those tracks, then recording 2
passes of a thick Mesa (rectifier) sound, and hard pan those; for a
total of 4 tracks/passes doing the same thing. Duck the edgy tracks
some when the vocals come in, and throw them more out front when the
vocals go away. Fiddle with it enough and it matches Linkin Park and
some other guitar band sonics.

YMMV.
 
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