HDTV for gaming.

[cats_Paw]

Hi guys. i got a simple question that i didnt quite get to solve using google search.
I want to get a 37-40 Inch 1900x1080 resolution tv for PC gaming at that resolution.

My question is simple: LED or LCD, and 50Hz or 100Hz.
Let me explain that i did learn LED has mostly better colors (this is actually very important for me, as long as it is really true as of today), but apart from beeing more expensive, seems it does not differ that much.
As an example: I have an LCD Samsung monitor about 3.6 years old. I saw a LG LCD monitor, and looked a lot better, but then compared to a LED tv from LG as well, seemed moreless the same for me.


Now, about 50 to 100 Hz, i learned that few tvs have actually true 100Hz input, wich can cause lag, and artifacts. Now, when looking at 2 tvs one next to each other, one 50 Hz and another 100Hz, i did notice a huge diffrence, but will this also be same in a PC gaming? After arent most PC monitors rated at 57 vertical 53 horizontal?
Another thing is the blur that TVs normally create. I heard sometimes its 0, soemitmes its huge, sometimes its no diffrence between 50 and 100, and soemetimes there is a huge change. I ask cus when i pluged in my 50 LCD tv to my PC for a test, bluring was noticible in most games (thou it is a 720p only).

Well if any of you have tested this or seen it, please let me know.

 

[ssddx]

you must be on the european standard as here in the usa lcd hdtvs are either 60hz, 120hz, or 240hz so some of what i say in terms of hz/input signals may be a little off. we have some euro forum readers so maybe they can help out as well.

the "led" in led tv only refers to the type of backlight. tvs which are called lcd tv use a ccfl backlight. both types use an lcd panel so the whole led/ccfl difference will not matter when it comes to color. as far as contrast, certain models which have leds arranged in a grid structure that turn off dynamically can increase contrast but most are only edge lit which offer little to no benefit.

i'm not sure how it works with the euro standard but here in the usa the standard for lcds is a 60hz input signal. 120 hz monitors use two cables from the pc. i'm not sure how things work over there but if 50hz is your standard then a 50hz tv should work fine. i use my sony bravia 40" (60hz) all the time and there is zero ghosting.

by blur do you mean "ghosting" or do just mean that everything is more fuzzy than on a regular lcd computer monitor?

if you mean ghosting..this is common on some older monitors but i haven't seen it myself in years. if your 720p is older, and a cheap model i could see why it does this. anything newer and of decent quality shouldnt ghost. ghosting is not something that televisions "normally" do.

if you mean blur..this is normal. if you have a set resolution (1920x1080) and compare two sizes (such as a 20" to a 40") the smaller monitor will look much sharper. the same effect happens when you make copies and scale a picture up 200%, the end result looks much more blurry than the original. however, if you sit back from them so that they appear the same size (have one close, one far) they will look almost identical (depending on how good your vision is).

 

[cats_Paw]

Hi, thx for the quick response.

First yes, European, spain.

Second, I know about the tecnologies, and how they work, the thing is, i wonder if they improved them over the years or if its still same as its been a long time ago (meaning plasma tv should not be used as a long term on monitor for pc or u basicly burn it, and LCD NON-Led still have no way of showing black colors well.

Third: i mean the fuzzy feeling, ghosting should not be a problem in a 3 MS response ratio rated TV, right?

Fourth: acording to a friend who studies optics my vision accuracy is over 200% and viewing distance is 190%, i guess thats good eyes.

So, should if i use it as a monitor from about 50 CM away, should i not go for anything bigger than a 32 inch?.

Again thx for help.

 

[ssddx]

i wouldn't recommend a plasma television. they do have the best contrast ratios but burn out quick and are expensive to get fixed.

the reason that lcd televisions display black as a "dark grey" is because of the backlighting. ccfl and edge-lit led are about the same in terms of contrast ratio, at least to my knowledge. as i mentioned there is at least one company (samsung i think) who was arranging the leds behind the screen in a gridlike pattern (and not along the edge like most) with a controller that turns patches on, off, or at a % on depending on what is being displayed in that quadrant. this would mean that black areas would be black (well as dark as a screen gets without the backlight on) and the lighter areas would be light. perhaps you should take a look at them if contrast is what appeals to you most.

a general fuzzyness is due to my "blur" paragraph above. theres nothing you can do about this except sit back from it. you shouldnt get ghosting on a tv, like i said i havent seen ghosting for years.

yeah, you probably notice the blurryness more than me due to my eyes being less than 20/20. as i said, sit back a bit and it should be fine.

if i remember correctly 2.54cm = 1 inch. that means that the distance is about 19 1/2 inches. i sit back about 24-29" from my regular 20 inch monitors. from my 40 inch television at home (which i use as a monitor) i sit back about 42 inches.

---

side note:

if what you are looking for is both clarity AND size then you can have both.

dell makes a 30" 2560x1600 resolution monitor. if you plan to fullscreen games on it just make sure you have a very good computer as this kind of resolution on newer games can take some serious hardware to get good framerates.

 

[cats_Paw]

My budget is a little tight, but i was mainly thingking of a LED LG tv 32 inch. They get a "fake" contrast ratio of 2.000.000:1 and are quite affordable.
Any Idea id 100 "fake" Hz is worth the extra cash?
the model i was mainly aiming for was LG 32LE5310.

 

[anwaypasible]

let's be specific..
any resolution can cause tearing when there is an odd to even mismatch.

apparently the higher refresh rates tear more.

the truth is, if the refresh rate would stop 'interopolating' the inbetween frames, there would be much less of a problem.

a CRT will refresh 30 frames per second over and over again when there is no visual change.
when the system is taking two frames and creating a unique frame to fit inbetween the two frames, bad things can happen.

simply think about it.
if your game console is outputting 60 frames per second..
then a 120 fps television might be trying to create 60 unique frames per second.
that doubling of frames really detaches your input.
combine that with the response time of the lcd liquid itself, it can cause a bad feeling of distance between you and the controller.

these televisions are saying things like 'let me touch it'
'let me fill it'
and you are saying something like 'let me grab it'

why doesnt broadcast television and movies feel ackward?
because the frames are uploaded early into a buffer.
you cant upload future frames into a buffer when playing a video game.
the action is absolutely live.

i dont think the software gets confused, i think the buffer doesnt have an on/off option.
kinda like the 'pre-buffer' for direct X video games.
this setting is in the graphics card software on the PC.
an option of 3 frames ahead can be enough to cause input lag.
more frames buffered means more input lag.

you can read about it quite easily.
its a buffer that is trying to make itself useful in a situation that requires constant NOW!
not saying 'hey what are you gonna be doing in the future?'

when these buffers are used in a television, it can lead to the circuit board 'knowing' there is a severe change from a dark scene to a very bright scene.
like a commercial that is mostly dark or black, then the next commercial that is mostly white.
this 'getting prepared' can take some of the stress away from the components on the circuit board.

it really helps lower the electricity usage of the television.
because if there is no getting prepared, then the entire circuit would run at higher voltage and amperage to constantly be ready for severe changes from white to black.
the whole screen needs an adjustment.
and depending on the liquid inside the lcd panel.. the change that requires the most electricity might not always be black to white.
maybe it is opposite ends of the color wheel.

aside from saving electricity, it can reduce the heat coming from the circuit board.
and this might prolong the life of whatever is low tolerant to heat.
maybe the backlight adjusts its output level for black and white scenes.
if the flourescent light has a ballast, the ballast might need some extra oomph to get change voltage.
or
maybe the ballast powers the light, but there is a variable circuit that goes between the light and the ballast, and the circuit needs to know when it is its turn to do some hard work.

if you picture a person rocking back and forth on a couch thinking 'i want it now!'
it is kinda torture to make the person wait for whatever they want.
same thing can be said about the electronic pieces on the circuit board.

it certainly is a big step in the opposite direction when compared to the obnoxious and bulletproof analog circuits from the 1970's and 1980's

but if you really needed a solid example.. it is like being in water, and everytime you know you are about to go under water .. at the very least, you hold your breath.
some people plug their nose too.
it is a survival technique.
and if those 'supervisors' or 'buffers' fail, then the entire television wont work.
the circuit would probably be more complex than some people can understand, making it difficult to diagnose and repair the individual pieces.

kinda like a business where all of the employees show up for work.. but the business is closed for the day because the boss is sick.

which one of these televisions has such a buffer
or
which television has the option to turn off the buffer
i have absolutely no clue.

if i was concerned about it.. i would be hooking up my game console to the television and playing a video game on the television at the store.
if the business wouldnt allow me to connect my video game to the television, i wouldnt buy anything from that store .. and i would take my money some place else.

there isnt enough detailed information in the list of specifications to know if the television is going to be a problem or not.
it forces a person to go out and try the televisions in the local stores.

 

[cats_Paw]

You make a good point. Dont know how to go around this as internet shopping in spain is quite cheaper than in normal stores, and i cant carry my 36KG PC case around to plug it in and test it.
I guess ill get a "lag test" some other form. Well, thx for the info.

 

[anwaypasible]

back in the old days, some people would simply test the contrast ratio of the screen to determine quality.

there would be a black to white gradient bar.
then red, blue, and green would go from brightest available to black, counting (or taking note) to how much degree of change was available in the fades of the colors.
it is a way of knowing how many colors (or shades of color) are available.
and it was decent for primary colors, but if you mix red with blue .. are all of those shades on the way to black still available?

and even then, will all of those shades remain available with age?

 

[cats_Paw]

Well, that certainly does not make me feel safer .
Oh well, i might just get a tv and return it if anything.

 

[ssddx]

i use a sony bravia 40" 60hz 1080p tv from a few years back (before the 120/240hz ones came out) as my main monitor. it gets used for general computing, pc video gaming (including fps), and console gaming. i've had absolutely zero unexpected issues with it in terms of image quality, lagging, ghosting, etc.

what i always recommend doing is going to a local store and looking at the televisions on display. remember once you write down a few model numbers you can easily just buy it online (from wherever you want) later on.

most places nowdays have some sort of high definition demo playing. if you ask the salespeople they are usually happy to swap sources to display something different. you can judge pretty well how a tv will appear at your home. if you are worried about buying online then just check the return policies though remember at the very least you will pay shipping back.

reading what other people have to say about the television, and what review sites have wrote is also a good idea. you might just be able to find someone who has already used the model as a "pc monitor".

 

[cats_Paw]

the problem i run into while searching those forums is the fact most of that information is outdated, and this is a potencial problem. it is hard to guess if the problems that previous models had still persist, and in a store i wont be able tot tell since they can tweak tvs for specific movies, or to sell specific models.

I do get the general idea of waht i want, i just wonder if a 50Hz tv is going to be the same as MAX 50 fps, or if it is not the same.
As far as i understand, if u have 50Hz there is no processing of the signal the cable sends, so less input lag. if that is correct, for a tv that is going to be used 95%+ time as a monitor i guess i "have to" go for a 50Hz model.

Is that correct?

 

[anwaypasible]

i swear i read somewhere saying the television broadcasts were using 60fps .. and if the television was 60hz .. then yes, it would be a 1:1 ratio (unless the television was actually slow at doing 60hz = generic/junk television .. probably a tv ment for the poor or careless)

 

[cats_Paw]

Good enought for me, so a 32-37 inch, lcd, 50Hz Full HD it is. Thx for help guys.

 

[anwaypasible]

if the video game runs below 50 frames per second.. a console like xbox 360, nothing to do about it.
but if it was a PC, then you could upgrade the video card for more processing power = higher frames per second.

i really dont believe those game consoles are low into the 30fps area.
i've seen some games and played a couple at the electronics store once or twice, the movement is sometimes clearly more fluid.
if the television in your country is normally 50hz .. then the game console for your country is probably designed to work with the same 50hz

you might be well had to get some type of 'feature' that improves the frames per second.
the screen might look more solid and fluid for movies and television.. but who knows, maybe the feature will use up a lot of internal electricity and be the intended cause of failure.

not saying all designers give an intended cause of failure, but some do.
it can help with warranty service and insurance claims.. to check the circuits for abuse and make a reply that there was something else that caused a problem.
and if they wanted to have the spare parts ready for all of these intended failures, they would be selling those parts to the electronics repair shop.
maybe then you would see a lot of those televisions on sale as refurbished or 'bought from a company'

if you do get some kind of 'motion technology' make sure you have the ability to turn it on and off.

 

[cats_Paw]

Basicly im down to 2 models (mostly due to economic restrictions):

http/www.alternate.es/html/product/Televisores_LCD_hasta_40_pulgadas/Samsung/LE-37C530/417683/?tn=ENTERTAINMENT&l1=Televisores&l2=LCD

http/www.alternate.es/html/product/Televisores_LCD_hasta_32_pulgadas/LG/32LD350/431517/?tn=ENTERTAINMENT&l1=Televisores&l2=LCD