Help me get the best home theater sound quality possible for my PC

[sugetsu]

Hello, I have been looking all over the internet for an upgrade for my current sound system, although I believe it sounds great, people all over the net say that I can do much better and I would like to test these claims personally.

First here is my current system specs:

HT Omega claro 2 sound card.
Z906 5.1 speakers.
Tri x R9 290.
I7 4770k.
Windows 8.1
I am using DTS Interactive through digital out.

After much searching I have come to understand that:

1) The sound quality of my sound card is as good as DACs found on high end receivers. If possible I would like to just find better 5.1 or 7.1 home theater speakers that can plugged into it.

2) The z906 lack dedicated tweeters which don't make them a good choice for music listening.

3) If I buy a receiver my sound card would be entirely bypassed, making it a complete waste.

4) Based on hardware reviews of my sound card it is supposedly so good that it is a waste to use it with speakers such as the ones I have.

5) A high end receiver can provide the absolutely best possible audio due to its high quality amp and DAC.

Taking all this into consideration, I believe that the easiest solution is just to upgrade my speakers but it seems that beyond the z906 the Edifier s550 are my only other choice when comes to upgrading my computer speakers. The big problem is, the edifiers are really hard to find. Hence, I am thinking that that there must be some way to connect regular home theater speakers into my system via a digital amplifier or perhaps use a receiver that has some sort of pass through function that allows my sound card's signal to remain intact.

I am only theoretically familiar with receivers, pre amps, and amps. I would really appreciate any input on this matter.

What is then the smartest way to improve my sound system? Use my sound card or turn to another device?

Thanks in advance.

 

[sugetsu]

Now that I think about it, I would like to find a 5.1 o Amplifier with Optical inputs, that way it will work the same way as my z906 as it has a build in amp, and my sound card would still be doing the audio processing. I found these 5.1 speakers with great reviews: http/www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA3JX15Y3140

Can anyone tell me what amp would work great with them? Thanks!

 

[americanaudiophile]

If you use the optical out of your sound card then the receiver would be doing the processing. You could buy a five channel amp but that would cost way more than the price range we are talking about.
Don't get hung up on the sound card. The most economical way for you to upgrade your speakers is with a receiver. At the low end Onkyo and Denon are good value. If you can go a little higher the Marantz NR1403 is very good sounding and has plenty of power for those speakers.

 

[sugetsu]

^ Thanks for your reply. I have a budget of around $800 could you point me to a good 5 channel amp?

Thank you.

 

[ssddx]

the z906 is a nice set of speakers however what you read on the net about there being better options is most certainly true. lets take my own modest system.. which is a vsx-30 receiver , klipsch quintet iv satelite speakers and a klipsch subwoofer. however its about triple the cost of the z906.

there are of course cheaper but still good speaker options which sound better than pc speakers.

if you are using optical out currently for your z906 you are already bypassing your soundcard completely. what you are hearing isnt the soundcard but the processing done inside the speakers own electronics. if you wanted to use the soundcard you would be hooked up via 3.5mm

while you might consider it a waste i would just get a receiver and get rid of (perhaps sell to recoup some money) your soundcard.

you could use a 5 channel amplifier with the 3.5mm outputs from your soundcard however its not going to be cheap and that cuts into money you could spend on speakers.

 

[sugetsu]

I asked HT omega support about this issue and here is their reply:

... you can use Claro2 analog outputs with 3pcs of stereo - 2xRCA cables for 5.1ch.



http/www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-3-5mm-Male-2-Male-Adapter/dp/B004YEBK66/ref=sr_1_6?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1400361098&sr=1-6&keywords=rca+stereo+cable

You can connect sound card outputs to receiver with this kind of cable.

And you can use optical cable for digital output up to 5.1ch with one single cable. It is just simple connection.
But Claro 2 provides really good analog outputs. I highly recommend using analog outputs especially music files.

I have set my eyes on these 2 receivers:


Marantz sr6007

http/www.amazon.com/Marantz-SR6007-Receiver-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B0081N91BC


Onkyo TX-NR809

http/www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR809-7-2-Channel-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00505F01E

How big is the DAC difference between the two?

How good are the Energy 5.1 take classic vs the edifier s550? I ask this because I could save a lot by just buying the edifier but ultimately I care more about the highest level of sound fidelity possible.

 

[Antimatter79]

I asked HT omega support about this issue and here is their reply:

... you can use Claro2 analog outputs with 3pcs of stereo - 2xRCA cables for 5.1ch.



http/www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-3-5mm-Male-2-Male-Adapter/dp/B004YEBK66/ref=sr_1_6?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1400361098&sr=1-6&keywords=rca+stereo+cable

You can connect sound card outputs to receiver with this kind of cable.

And you can use optical cable for digital output up to 5.1ch with one single cable. It is just simple connection.
But Claro 2 provides really good analog outputs. I highly recommend using analog outputs especially music files.

I have set my eyes on these 2 receivers:


Marantz sr6007

http/www.amazon.com/Marantz-SR6007-Receiver-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B0081N91BC


Onkyo TX-NR809

http/www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR809-7-2-Channel-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00505F01E

How big is the DAC difference between the two?

How good are the Energy 5.1 take classic vs the edifier s550? I ask this because I could save a lot by just buying the edifier but ultimately I care more about the highest level of sound fidelity possible.

As far as those receivers, you would be hard pressed to "hear" a difference between those two DACs. The automatic room correction (ARC) is of more importance, but they both use Audessey MultiEQ XT. None of that makes a difference anyways, if you're going to run analog into the recivers, which it seems like you may. I would, especially if you watch blu rays, you won't get uncompressed blu ray audio formats running optical or digital coax. With that said, the Marantz is going to be more reliable. I would stay away from the HDMI capable Onkyos; they have known problems with the HDMI boards failing, and to my knowledge it still hasn't been addressed on those entry to mid level receivers. You said your budget was $800 but the Marantz alone is more than that, plus you're looking at speakers as well. Sound-wise, you will hear the most improvement by upgrading speakers, but with your setup, you'll have to get the receiver and speakers. Because you're running this from a PC, if you plan on running passive speakers, you'll have to do the receiver first, so get the Marantz, and when you're able, get the Energy Classics. They have gotten very good reviews, and are generally considered to be a great sounding set, but with those and your receiver, you've just about doubled your budget, assuming you don't already have speaker wire, multi channel RCA to run from the PC to the Marantz. BTW, although I'm looking at upgrading my Onkyo to a Denon or Marantz, I'm not biased against Onkyo; my old receiver has been going strong for about 12 years, not one failure, but its an old model, pre-HDMI, and I use the analog inputs from my Oppo BDP-103 so I can get uncompressed blu ray audio on movies (Dolby TruHD and DTS Master HD). The optical and digital coax limit me to lossy formats, such as DTS, DTS-ES, Dolby Digital, and Dolby Digital EX (it's a 6.1 receiver).

 

[sugetsu]

^ Thanks ssddx and Antimatter79 for your reply. Could you help me find a good multi channel receiver with 5.1 analog inputs that costs $500 or less? I can get the Energy 5.1 for $300.

Thanks

 

[americanaudiophile]

The 5.1 analog input is not common on lower priced surround receivers. You can get a older used one for that kind of money or less. Since you are going to use it as an amp I would find a Marantz surround receiver. Doesn't matter what kind of video switching or surround processing it has since you don't need either for your application. Marantz receivers have strong stable power amplifiers with honest power ratings so it will be closer to a real power amp than other receivers in that price range.

 

[ssddx]

the energy take 5.1 classic is considered one of the best choices for the budget. i would consider it worthwhile as an upgrade to the z906.

if you wanted to keep your soundcard and use it.. you might be better off with a 5.1 amplifier instead. at least then you wouldnt have to buy older technology and the amplifier is going to be higher quality than low end receivers. however, if you ever decide to connect other sources... its not going to be as easy.

if you wanted a receiver i would just sell the claro to recoup some cash. then buy a half decent receiver. the onboard DAC in good receivers isnt going to be worse than the claro and you will simplify things quite a bit.

you could of course buy an "older" receiver which has 5.1 analog inputs and use your soundcard but i'm not sure if you want to deal with older technology or not. if you ever wanted to connect new sources up like hdmi you'd be in the same boat without a paddle.

---

i'd suggest just using a $200-300 (seeing as how about 200 is the base price for half decent stuff) receiver and the $350 energy take 5.1 classic. and sell your soundcard. its an easier hookup and your whole system is future proofed for at least a while.

---

of course... its completely your decision which route you want to take.

 

[sugetsu]

I think that the cheapest and smartest way for me to go would be to buy an amp as you suggest. Could you point me to one that I could buy? Selling sound cards is quite difficult, people don't really understand their value. Thank you.

 

[sugetsu]

Holy s!@# I can't believe that an amp with surround inputs costs 2k and up... how and why would an amp be more expensive than receiver? Looks like I can only buy a receiver at this point...

 

[ssddx]

generally that is because going with a "sound processor" and seperate "5.1 amplifier" is considered really top end stuff and is bought by people who spend $6000+ on sound equipment.

please note there ARE exceptions such as this http/www.hifi-tower.co.uk/Auna-AMP-5100-5-1-Surround-Sound-Receiver-1200W-Amplifier_i3301.htm which is only 100gbp ($168). it handles the inputs you need and is 5.1 however it doesnt look like it outputs the power you will need for speakers like the energy take 5.1 and given the price i really cant say its a "quality" type unit. i just noted it as a point that some products DO exist but they are hard to find.

you might be able to use a 5 channel car amplifier... if you can find one that does 100w @ 8ohms for each channel. i havent looked to much into this and it looks like most are only 4ohm so i'm not really sure if its an option or not.

perhaps the cheapest and best way to go though if you want to keep your analog inputs out of your soundcard is to go with seperate amps. you could go with amplifiers like http/www.amazon.com/Pyle-PT3300-3000-Watt-Power-Amplifier/dp/B0010K8IM6/ref=sr_1_2?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1400641768&sr=1-2 or even some cheaper units as long as they handle 100w @ 8ohm (if you're going with the energy take speakers). each would handle just two speakers (with one handling just the center) and would cost $300 or less (you could even get rack mount or desktop stackable ones). the subwoofer should be able to connect right up to your souncard with an adapter since its powered by its own internal amp. while annoying to have 3 different knobs for volume... if you used your windows volume to adjust instead of turning the knobs on the amps its a non-issue for the most part.

--

of course if you dont want to go through all the hassle of the previous options... you could always break down and get a receiver.

 

[sugetsu]

That is indeed a big hassle. I guess I'll buy the Onkyo TX-NR809 for $700 and the energy 5.1. My main objective is to test for audio quality from both digital and analog sources and come up with the best possible sound quality.

I have already tested the digital outputs of 3 different sources to my Z906 and in all cases the claro 2 gave more fidelity. I was very surprised as I was lead to believe that the sound quality should be identical as the z906 dacs were doing all the work, this is obviously not the case. I tested my motherboard's digital out, a client's computer I just built with the cheaper HT omega striker 7.1 sound card, and of course, my sound card. The audio fidelity was very different all 3 cases with the onboard sound being the worst.

When I get the receiver I will perform the following tests:
1) Claro's 2 digital out.
2) Claro's 2 analog out.
3) Motherboard's digital out
4) Plug my phone to the receiver and play music directly from it.

I will post the results of my experience once all tests are completed. Then I will make the final decision as to whether sell my claro 2 or keep it.

 

[sora]

I personally think a 5 channel car amplifier would work for a home system like ssddx said.

http/www.amazon.co.uk/T1-Audio-T1-100-Channel-Amplifier/dp/B0045V4CHM may work although it is 4ohm; there are tutorials on YouTube that can help though.
https/www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV1a6F7T1i4

 

[ssddx]

generally you should only be spending about 20-30% of the total home theater system budget on a receiver.

a $700 receiver is waayyyyyyy overkill for just the energy 5.1 speakers. something in the $200-300 range is more appropriate.

while they are good speakers for the money... they arent good enough to justify a $700 receiver (if you did that you would be better off getting into actual seperates not kits like the energys).

of course... your choice... i've already provided quite a list of options for you to go through and it looks like you made your decision.

 

[sugetsu]

Well, i just found the TX-NR809 on amazon for $440 Used or $500 refurbished. Should I jump on this deal? Is it a good idea to buy used receivers? What is their general life expectancy?

generally you should only be spending about 20-30% of the total home theater system budget on a receiver.

a $700 receiver is waayyyyyyy overkill for just the energy 5.1 speakers. something in the $200-300 range is more appropriate.

I wholeheartedly agree but I can't find any receivers with 5.1 analog inputs for that price! =(

 

[ssddx]

i do hope you realize your troubles are of your own making.

if you want digital.... you can get a receiver for $200-300 pretty easily and the dac they have really is quite good enough for those speakers. you seem pretty hung up on your soundcard. while i'm sure its good are you positive that its better than a decent avr dac? also, are you sure that you will actually notice?
if you want analog.... you could some amps and stack them. not pretty but it works for cheaper. again, a 5 channel car amp *might* work if you can get 8ohm 100w per ch also.

you want both analog and digital inputs. having both isnt going to be common on anything but high end and even then... you are normally talking about using processors and multichannel amps instead of all-in-ones. i cant help it that the market evolved this way... i'm just pointing you towards the most budget friendly options i know of.

(you wont find budget level av receivers with 5.1 analog input because thats typically a high end option)

as i said... you are free to do as you wish. i gave you all the info you need to make up your mind about what you'd like to do.

--

personally i wouldnt buy a used receiver. i know people that do but i personally would not. i would be worried about why they are trying to offload it and if it has had any problems with it in the past (which they will not tell you of course!). your choice though.

 

[Antimatter79]

Sugetsu, I apologize for not keeping up with the thread, I don't get notifications on updates or anything; I'm not even sure how that works. But I can tell you that my old Onkyo 6.1 surround sound receiver is still working fine, since Father's Day of 2002. I have not had one single issue with it, only the subwoofer that came with it had to be warrantied out about 8 years ago, (the amp died) and then, the amp died a second time about 3 months ago (the subwoofer plate amp, not the receiver's amp). In my experience, the older receivers are far more robust, and you don't have to deal with HDMI handshake issues, audio/video sync issues, etc. You can always run HDMI straight to your tv and just use the old receiver as an amp. That's what mine is primarily used for. Since it doesn't have HDMI, my Oppo BDP-103 has analog going out to the receiver so I can get uncompressed blu-ray audio. The only issue you're going to have is getting an old analog input reciver or multi-channel amp at a decent price. I would stay away from Pyle, for your use, I have seen recommendations for the AudioSource AMP-100 2 channel amp; they're only $109 each on Amazon currently. You can get 3 of those for less than half the price of the Marantz if you truly want to use your PC as a "receiver", and run analog out to it. Also, those Energy CLassic speakers you mentioned are identical to the ones Monoprice sells on their site (factory direct) for at least 50 bux cheaper. Same speakers, cheaper price. They're also on Amazon, but the price may be higher on Amazon. If you're set on getting a separate receiver, I would feel more comfortable buying from an authorized dealer on the AVSForum. JDSmoothie is an authorized Denon/Marantz dealer, and he can give you a better price than you can get elsewhere on the net, for brand new equipment. I have been a member of the forum for maybe 3 years or more, and he is well known within the community. That is the route to go, so you don't have to pay retail, and still get new equipment from an official source. Whether you decide to output analog or HDMI to your shiny new box, you should check out one of the older discontinued Marantz units, like a AVR 5007, which will give you 7.1 analog in as well as 7.1 out if you want to upgrade to outboard amps at some point. It also has plenty of HDMI inputs, digital coax and optical. $800 on Amazon, but you will do MUCH cheaper through JDSmoothie on the AVSForum. He can't post the wholesale(?) prices online, but if you call the number in his signature M - F, he can give you those ridiculously low prices on new in the box equipment. I hope this helps.

 

[sugetsu]

First of all thank you all for taking your time to help me find the best solution. I really appreciate the time you all invested in this thread and I must tell you, this whole process was very educational. I am sorry for not posting earlier but I have finally found the answer I was looking for.

Lets start with the findings of my research when it comes to most of the questions I posted above:

Note: I could only test with digital outputs, as finding a receiver with analog inputs proved to be too much of a hassle.

1. Does a sound card influence sound quality when using digital out?: Yes. Let me reiterate what I posted before; first I tried 4 different audio sources on my z906: All test were done at the same volume level and equalization settings.

a) Omega claro 2. (Cmedia CMI8788)
b) Motherboard. (Realtek ALC898)
c) Sounblaster Audigy ZX (???)
d) Omega Striker 7.1 (Cmedia CMI8770)

The sound quality changed drastically depending on the codec I was using and these were my results from best to worst:

Omega Claro 2
Striker 7.1
Sound Blaster
Onboard

The difference between digital out on the claro 2 vs onboard was literally night and day. The Claro sounded crystal clear, louder and with very high fidelity. I believe the deciding factor was that the Claro had to option to do dolby digital live and dts interactive encoding, whereas the realtek did not. I also did not get full surround by default, only 2 channel output was available. I had to compensate those shortcomings through speaker dps effects, even then it sounded much more muddy.

I only tested the claro and onboard sound on the Yamaha receiver, the results were almost the same. The big difference were the speakers and the wider range of dps effects on it when compared to the z906's.

2) What does encoding and decoding mean? I was under the impression that I was completely bypassing my sound card when employing a digital connection, yet I couldn't help but notice that when I used different sources all connected through digital the sound changed drastically. Through much Google research I found out how windows processes digital audio (which sucks by the way); it can only output 2 channels via digital but it does allow full surround sound through analog. Hence, sound card manufactures came up with the following method: The digital signal is converted to analog by the sound card, which now enables volume control on all channels, then the signal is encoded through Dolby or DTS and then sent out to receiver for decoding. This was the very reason why my On-board digital out could only output two channels.

The conclusion of this encoding and decoding process is that the sound card is still doing much of the work, as the clock on the sound chipset is responsible for the accuracy of the bit to bit conversion. The receiver only has the task of reading the information and sending it to the speakers.

Oddly enough (or perhaps not odd, I just don't fully understand the process yet) my Yamaha receiver signal info screen displayed that the signal input was analog.



3) Are the energy take speakers better than the z906? Hell yes! The tweeters, the larger size of the speakers and the bigger bass on the energy take 5.1 really make a large difference. When combined with a great sound card, such as the claro 2, and properly mixed through its control panel + winamp and the enhancer dps plugging = SOUND NIRVANA!




Oxygen Control Panel + Winamp with DSP Enhancer plugin


So how did I go about this research process:

For starters I live 2 miles away from a Microcenter, I found out that they sell the energy take 5.1 speakers, and had a really nice entry level Yamaha receiver: the RX-v373 for $150. (It doesn't have any real video functions but I do not need them) The speakers cost $420, which is $120 more expensive than at amazon, but regardless, I decided to buy both and test them against my z906. Then after running the test I would return the speakers (and the receiver if I was really disappointed with it as well) for a refund and then I would buy them at amazon at cheaper price.

I also bought the sound blaster ZX for testing purposes, I promptly returned it afterwards.

I have had the Omega striker 7.1 collecting dust for a while (and the logitech x-540 speakers), I had upgraded to the omega claro 2 and z906 not long ago. I have found out that selling sound cards or speakers on Craiglist is really difficult. I just can't seem to find people who are interested in sound, I am asking $150 for both.


Conclusion:
Now that I found my ultimate sound upgrade, and I don't think I will be upgrading again in the near future, I will be returning the energy take 5.1 to microcenter and then I'll buy them through amazon instead at cheaper price. However, I am now concerned about finding a buyer for my z906, I am now left with 2 logitech speaker systems and one sound card, all of which I fully enjoyed. Any advice on how to sell them?

Here are is a pic of my testing chamber... hehe