No 3DS Until March 2011; Design Could Change

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Do not forget: the Thing needs to run on batteries!!!

[citation][nom]Think also about how much games have advanced visually over the past 5 to 6 years, and consider that the vast majority of those visual advances were born out of expanded pixel horsepower and not vertex.[/citation]

Not much really! I'm disappointed by current graphics. It's too expensive to make and it has not advanced much since DX9 which was 2003???

Yeah! Games need much more polys! Much, much more polys and much higher resolution screens at 60fps! And eventually raytracing. Then you can speak about better graphics.
In my opinion graphics and games have stalled.
 
[citation][nom]nottheking[/nom]Tell that to Sony, who tried that with their PS3. Or Microsoft, who did that with the original Xbox. While the Xbox 360 made a profit in spite of initially selling at a loss, it wasn't due to game sales, but rather the fact that the loss was small, and die shrinks and revisions quickly slashed into the cost of manufacture. On the other side, the Xbox 1 wound up being a huge, multi-hundred-million-dollar loss for Microsoft, and the PS3 likewise for Sony.One must remember: these companies are in the business to make money, not to satisfy fans' dreams. And while some might argue for the "sell at a loss" gambit, a company as conservative and cautious as Nintendo is never going to take a risk like that, especially given the real-world results we've seen from this risk.Actually, the on-paper specs don't mean so much there... Traingles-per-second really stopped mattering back after 2001 or so, when it was the main dick-waving contest between the PS2 and Xbox. Especially since this can't be done as a strict comparison: the PSP uses programmable resources for T&L, while the 3DS has a fixed-function T&L unit. What does this mean? It means that SURE, the PSP can jack up the number of polys, but it drains resources away that could be used for other effects, or the came core itself, while the 3DS may have a lower theoretical limit on polys, it can pretty much always run at that limit without strangling other parts of the system.The texturing power, though, indeed blows the altnernatives away. Some rumors seem to be in line with the GPU actually clocking at MORE than the baseline 200 MHz, giving it fill-rates that could allow for detail levels that'd rival modern 7th-generation consoles. (once difference of resolution are accounted for) Indeed, some of the E3 demonstrations seem to bear this out; the GPU can apparently handle all the common shaders popular in Xbox 360 and PS3 games (normal-, specular-, and shadow-mapping among others) for essentially free, as they're handled through fixed-function units built into each texture unit, rather than relying on real-time computations done by programming the pixel shaders. The only commonly-seen thing it seems to lack is support for are bloom/HDR.I'm not 100% positive, but it does appear the 3DS has something arguing strongly in its favor for lower jaggies: the use of anti-aliasing. That alone can do far more than a resolution bump, so while the effective 400x240 of the 3DS may be technically lower than the 480x272 of the PSP, the images should appear vastly sharper and crisper.No word on the price, though Nintendo isn't one for vastly high costs, nor do they sell their hardware at a loss. $200-250 is more liable to be the price range for this sort of thing, I'd guess. The latter seems a bit high, but mostly I don't know how Nintendo's going to have this play along with the $190 DSi XL; the latter *IS* much bigger, but they may opt to slash the price on it. I suppose it might be helpful to do some research on price history of previous handhelds, since Nintendo has invariably kept their old generation along as a "cheaper alternative" to their current one. (I.e, GBC when the GBA was out, GBA alongside the DS, DS Lite and DSi, etc.)[/citation]

Higher resolution is what makes jaggies less obvious. Anti-aliasing is workaround and makes the image blurry. What would you prefer 128x antialiasing or 600dpi screen? I'd get the latter 😉
 
"These are things that we’re looking to get reaction to, including the overall button placement. When we get all that feedback, then we’ll finalize the design."

Button placement? I pity Nintendo for having such a tough job.

I love the way Nintendo really warms up their laurels with their butts.
 
[citation][nom]osxsier[/nom]yeah another analog stick would be nice. And a functional browser and I am sold. I have not bought a nintendo handheld in a while, but i may buy this one.Also, make it look less like a DS more like a PSP. I thought the PSP looked slick and DS kinda kiddy.[/citation]

Because a perfectly smooth, sleek looking clamshell portable game system is so "Kiddy Looking" right? The people who call everything nintendo kiddy are the ones being so childish.
 
[citation][nom]captainm27[/nom]I think Nintendo should really splurge on this one. High end CPU, GPU, 4.3" Hi-Rez Screen on both. Sure, it would probably cost something like $500 or $600 per unit to manufacture, but sell it for $150 or so. Sure, Nintendo will lose massive money in the initial year or two, but they will rake that up with all the millions that this is going to guarantee sell. Besides, they still have like Gazillion Dollars from all the Wii sales, they can afford to take the back burner for a while. Basically, I would like to see Nintendo make some high end hardware device for once, and combine it with the innovative games they come up with.[/citation]
And do what sony does with the playstation 3? i don't think so, I think Nintendo has the winning method this time.
 
[citation][nom]descendency[/nom]My only problem is that the 3DS seems like a good competitor with the PSP (in terms of technology) not a successor to it like a lot would have hoped. The PSP kills the 3DS in terms of triangles computed per second. What does that mean? It means that more complicated geometry can be done on the PSP (or 'fewer jaggies'). The 3DS beats it in fill rate meaning the textures can be better though. In my opinion, there are no good reasons to have old technology in a device. Newer technology can be cheaper to make, use less power, and get more performance. I really don't understand why Tegra 1 or Tegra 2 was not used. Or a similar type of chip. Furthermore, the screen is a 400x240 screen (2x400x240 meaning there are two 400x240 images rendered to create the 3D effect... so Nintendo claims an 800x240 screen) is similar to the PSPs 480x270. More resolution = fewer jaggies. Rumors are floating about that this device isn't going to come cheap. I would have rather passed on 3D this generation. While it might look really cool, it may end up being too expensive. I'm really interested to see what the PSP2 can do even if I will have bought a 3DS already.[/citation]

You have no idea of the 3DS specs, since NO ONE KNOW THEM. How the hell do you know that the PSP renders more polygons than the 3DS? BTW, have you seen Metal Gear on 3DS? Completelly smokes any PSP game you have.
 
Some people mentioned the resolution of this being slightly low compared to PSP. With a screen this size the difference wouldn't be noticeable at all. The resolutions are so close that I doubt it would be noticable on a 10 inch screen.
 
Nintendo: Get rid of the low res 3D screen and but at least a 4' high res (800x480) screen that isnt highly reflective so we can use the thing somewhere besides a dark room!!!!!!

3D will limit your audience and implementation too much and if its the reason for the small low res screen then GET RID OF IT!!! This isnt 2000 anymore and a sub 300 pixel hieght resolution isnt going to cut it.
 
Yes, Nintendo, listen to what we have to say through Tom's Hardware (I hope you do read Tom's Hardware!). I too would like that 2ndary right thumb-slider to play something like Red Dead Revolver on 3DS.
 
[citation][nom]dragonsqrrl[/nom]For everyone disappointed in the PICA200... The specs given in this article apply to this particular GPU running at 200MHz. The PICA200 in the 3DS is running at 400MHz.[/citation]
Though I agree on the base point, it's worth noting that the HCW Article that gives the 400 MHz figure is speculative in nature; the reasoning given is that since the release of the initial 200 MHz version, later versions in 2008 apparently scaled to at least 400 MHz. Similarly, TDP was reported to scale with clock rate, to equate to approximately 1 mW per MHz, at which 0.4 W for the GPU was considered reasonable. While I can't find a figure for the GPU itself, I found that the PSP's main CPU (which handles a good portion of the graphics load) has a TDP of 0.5 W, so I'd venture that with a full-acceleration GPU like the 3DS, 0.4 W wouldn't be unreasonable at all.

[citation][nom]dragonsqrrl[/nom]Think also about how much games have advanced visually over the past 5 to 6 years, and consider that the vast majority of those visual advances were born out of expanded pixel horsepower and not vertex.[/citation]
This somewhat gets at the point, though really, in the modern world of graphics, pixel fillrates are an almost meaningless figure, as memory bandwidth tends to be the bottleneck there. (i.e, a GPU's pixel fillrate is usually restricted to fit within whatever bandwidth is available)

The real point I went on is that the PICA200 has a fixed-function T&L unit; for those reading that are unfamiliar, before we got "stream processors," these things were called vertex shader units, or "hardware T&L units" and were a big deal when nVidia first brought them to PCs with the first GeForce 256 card. By contrast, the PSP has a dirty little secret: The CPU has to handle T&L. So in order to hit that trumpeted 33 million polys/sec, the PSP has to basically stop most of what else it's doing.

You are right on that the major advantage the 3DS has over the PSP's GPU is in capabilities; the latter is basically little more than an old 1990s Voodoo; it handles texturing and render output, and that's about it; it's very limited on effects. While not programmable, the PICA200 has a wide array of fixed-function units, that essentially allow a certain (of unknown limit, since I can't find low-level details) amount of such shader effects to be done for essentially free, contrast to programmable pixel-shader GPUs, (like all desktop as well as the Xbox, 360, and PS3) which have to eat up tons of built-in math power and often hit lag spikes when they run out.

In this case, the 3DS' main bottleneck may very well be texture fillrate; each extra pass with another shader, such as refraction, specular lighting, or normal-maps is going to require another texture pass to apply it to the surface. So programmers may wind up having to budget, or at least be careful they don't throw all these effects out willy-nilly. While all of this will also require a degree of pixel overdraw, I think that with only 192k pixels to render to, even the low-end 800 megapixels/sec would be utter overkill. (given that even @60fps, that's enough to draw each entire frame over nearly 70 times)

[citation][nom]Zingam[/nom]Higher resolution is what makes jaggies less obvious. Anti-aliasing is workaround and makes the image blurry. What would you prefer 128x antialiasing or 600dpi screen? I'd get the latter[/citation]
First, it wasn't necessary to quote a giant comment to give a brief 4-sentence reply. But also, you are incorrect; anti-aliasing makes the image look realistic, and yes, it removes "jaggies." Take a look at real-world photos: do you see jagged edges? No, you see many pixels at edges that blend the colors of the foreground and background objects. By contrast, in rendering, upping the resolution doesn't remove the stair-step jaggies whatsoever. Plus, with any display technology, you can only make cell walls so thin, so the higher your pixel density, the more glaring the edges of each pixel will be; crank the density high enough and it becomes as if you're looking through a screen door.
 
[citation][nom]captainm27[/nom]I would like to see Nintendo make some high end hardware device for once, and combine it with the innovative games they come up with.[/citation]

I can't recall the last time Nintendo released something that was "high end" in relation to tech that was available. They release it at a price that gets it into kids hands and let word of mouth spread it to the masses.

How long did it take them to add color display to their portables? At least this time they are jumping into a new technology milestone with 3D capability. It would be unlike them to sell it at a loss so they have to make cuts (screen size) to keep it in the target price point.
 
[citation][nom]nottheking[/nom]Though I agree on the base point, it's worth noting that the HCW Article that gives the 400 MHz figure is speculative in nature... By contrast, the PSP has a dirty little secret: The CPU has to handle T&L. So in order to hit that trumpeted 33 million polys/sec, the PSP has to basically stop most of what else it's doing.You are right on that the major advantage the 3DS has over the PSP's GPU is in capabilities; the latter is basically little more than an old 1990s Voodoo; it handles texturing and render output, and that's about it; it's very limited on effects.[/citation]
Thanks for the clarification and all the extra info, but I'm well aware of the speculative nature of this thread. The fact is, until we get official confirmation from either Nintendo, or someone disassembling a production unit, the PICA200 itself is mere speculation (I didn't read the original leak, so I don't know how this info surfaced). Though I'm sorry I didn't state the info I provided was speculative.

And that additional info on the PSP CPU/GPU was great, I had no idea it's GPU couldn't perform transform and lighting. That would certainly limit the systems ability to hit its 33 million poly/sec maximum, whereas the 3DS should be much more capable of achieving its speculated 30.6 million poly/sec and 1.6 billion pixel/sec maximums.
 
[citation][nom]Zingam[/nom]Do not forget: the Thing needs to run on batteries!!![citation][nom]Think also about how much games have advanced visually over the past 5 to 6 years, and consider that the vast majority of those visual advances were born out of expanded pixel horsepower and not vertex.[/citation]Not much really! I'm disappointed by current graphics. It's too expensive to make and it has not advanced much since DX9 which was 2003???Yeah! Games need much more polys! Much, much more polys and much higher resolution screens at 60fps! And eventually raytracing. Then you can speak about better graphics.In my opinion graphics and games have stalled.[/citation]
I would definitely have to disagree. There have been huge improvements in both GPU performance as well as visual fidelity since the introduction of DX9, which was technically in 2002 by the way. The vast differences are as clear as day for me so I'm not exactly sure how to go about arguing this. Everything from texture filtering quality, to antialiasing performance, to the new features found in DX10/11 have produced vast and impressive visual improvements in modern games.

Just do a visual comparison between games like Battlefield 2 or Half Life 2 (neither of which were introductory DX9 games) running on something like a Geforce 6, and Crisis 2 or Metro 2033 running on a modern DX11 card. In many instances vertex performance and poly count haven't improved all that much, yet it's immediately obvious that improvements made to real time visuals are far from stagnant or "stalled".

Resolutions have also improved quite a bit, and I don't know about you, but 1280x1024 was the 'high end' norm for me and most other enthusiasts back then. Now 1920x1200 is nothing unusual, and games can be taken all the way up to multi-monitor 2560x1600. Are you sure you aren't viewing those good old early DX9 days through rose colored glasses? Have you actually done any visual comparisons between 6-7 year old games and present DX10/11 games?
 
New design:
+Analog control
+3D screen
+3D camera(s)

-D-pad moved
-Only one analog control, learn from the PSP mistake
-Top screen looks like it's too far down, move it up by about 5 millimeters
 
[citation][nom]christopherknapp[/nom]I smell virtual boy.[/citation]
Naw, that'd be a very poor comparison. Sure, they were both made by Nintendo, and used a form of technology to give 3D display, to capitalize on contemporary 3D popularity. The similarities kinda end there.

The Virtual Boy was hampered by a clunky design, and underwhelming appearances. A trade-off for its 3D qualities was the fact that games were monochrome wireframe, hardly looking impressive at all; it easily out-weighed the advantages the 3D display brought. Similarly, the controller pre-dated the adoption of the analog stick, making it very hard to control with just a pair of D-pads. Lastly, what perhaps truly sunk it was the staggering lack of games; in the USA, third-party titles were all but nonexistent, with just 14 games released in total.

The 3DS fixes virtually all of this; the graphics technology is clearly potent enough, as it is clearly handling GameCube and PS2 games with ease, potentially even rivaling current-gen consoles, making graphics truly worth viewing in 3D. Similarly, control is better off; reports are that the analog nub is the best such input of any handheld yet, (besting the PSP's) as well as the touchscreen being easier to use. (reports are that the stylus is now VERY optional) Further, rather than equiping bulky goggles, the handheld form factor is virtually unchanged from a proven, 100+ million sellin winner; the "no glasses" thing can only help it in adoption.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, are the games; Nintendo has possibly the most staggering (and promising) third-party lineup ever seen for any console or handheld; aside from porting major first- and third-party titles, (Metal Gear Solid 3 CANNOT be emphasized enough here) but we're seeing mainline, "serious" series all getting in the action, from Saint's Row to Ninja Gaiden to Resident Evil. An added plus is that a lot of them rest heavily on the visual "wow" factor, and will definitely benefit from 3D here.

All told, I think Nintendo's just given themselves yet another license to print money.

[citation][nom]zaznet[/nom]I can't recall the last time Nintendo released something that was "high end" in relation to tech that was available. It would be unlike them to sell it at a loss so they have to make cuts (screen size) to keep it in the target price point.[/citation]
Technically, Nintendo did this with the Nintendo64; while hampered by a few design choices, (most notably, the reluctance to leave the super-expensive cartridge format, which made game development too expensive and risky for developers) was most certainly VASTLY more powerful than its other 5th-generation competitors like the PS1 and Saturn; bilinear filtering, alpha-blended multitexturing, full-scene anti-aliasing, hardware T&L, per-pixel lighting/shading effects, and real-time soft shadows were all features that put it leagues ahead of the other consoles, and even, for a while, desktop PCs. It remains, to this date, the only console to surpass gaming PCs at its release, or even come close to their level.

And yes, selling a console or handheld for a loss, in spite of much of the press surrounding Microsoft and Sony, is in fact a rarity. As it happens, since the 3rd generation (commonly called the "8-bit era") out of the dozens of consoles and handhelds, a grand total of three launched to sell at a loss: the Microsoft Xbox, Xbox 360, and Sony PS3. So that idea is NOT long-standing, but rather, a very new idea, and certainly one that won't last. Microsoft sold the Xbox at a loss to try to take advantage of its vast stores of wealth to basically "buy" its way into the console market. The PS3 was sold at a loss because Sony's execs are retarded, and somehow thought that they'd magically have huge game sales instantly. (as it happens, the PS3 still has overall cost Sony money) The 360 lost money at launch, but not much, and not for long; in that case, Microsoft made a decently-calculated tradeoff, but still was basically "buying" their way more into the market.

So no, to think that Nintendo would design a handheld to sell it at a loss is just plain silly. As I'd said above, they're in the market to make money, not to fulfil fans' pipe dreams.

[citation][nom]dragonsqrrl[/nom]The fact is, until we get official confirmation from either Nintendo, or someone disassembling a production unit, the PICA200 itself is mere speculation (I didn't read the original leak, so I don't know how this info surfaced).[/citation]
It's not speculative; this all surfaced when DMP, the designer of the PICA200, made a press release announcing the use of their design in the 3DS. I actually thought you'd already seen it; my apologies for not posting it sooner.

[citation][nom]dragonsqrrl[/nom]And that additional info on the PSP CPU/GPU was great, I had no idea it's GPU couldn't perform transform and lighting. That would certainly limit the systems ability to hit its 33 million poly/sec maximum, whereas the 3DS should be much more capable of achieving its speculated 30.6 million poly/sec and 1.6 billion pixel/sec maximums.[/citation]
Yeah, after a lot of digging, I'd discovered that the GPU design in the PSP is little more than what they literally say; the "rendering engine" is a pretty standard raster pipeline (ROPs) while the "surface engine" very aptly describes run-of-the-mill texture-mapping units. (TMUs)

Though in the PSP's defense, I will note that it does have two CPUs available to it; the T&L is handled through the SIMD unit in the main CPU (which shares its package with the GPU) while there's also the co-CPU, the "Media Engine." I'm aware that it contains a single scalar FPU, as well as something they call the "Virtual Mobile Engine." I'm not entirely positive what it is, but it appears to be a watered-down SIMD unit designed expressly for video/signal processing. While I've not really had experience programming the PSP, I wouldn't be surprised if the co-CPU's main FPU could be used to handle some game tasks... But even in that case, it's hard to imagine a cse where the PSP would reliably hit close to its theoretical polygon level in a real-world application.
 
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