Production philospohies

[Guest]

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I had an interesting conversation with a friend who is producing his own
singer songwriter album in NYC at the minute. We did a lot of recording here
some time ago in Ireland and produced a few albums together. At the time we
did individual overdubs making sure that everything we put down was in time
and in tune and had some life about it.

It seems he's discovering a whole new way of doing things in his new venture
by tring to record at least some of the band (drums bass acoustic and banjo
(don't ask)) all at once, separating using the booths in the studio. He
reckons that if you solo each individual track you probably wouldn't keep
the tracks individually if you were overdubbing as normal, but together they
have something special, something intangible, something magic.

Maybe this is a typically American thing because I suspect these days that
on this side of the water (Ireland and England) 95% of recordings are done
by tracking things individually, starting with the drums/rhythm instrument
and building on top of that. Are we missing out? Or is there a time and a
place for both?

If the band are all paying together in separated booths using headphones as
monitors would it not be the same thing as playing your individual overdub
onto the existing backing track using cans? Whats the difference? The
pleasure of watching the bass player bob his head? I've done some of this
"everything at once" recording before when I was in a big enough studio and
I have to say that we almost always went back over stuff because we just
knew it could be played better.

Are Rick Rubin, Joe Henry and Tom Waits (to name a few) the masters of the
concept? I mean, its nothing new, its how it was done in the old days, but
its so hard to pin down!

Tell me more.

Martin

 

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Martin Quinn <mquinn@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>Maybe this is a typically American thing because I suspect these days that
>on this side of the water (Ireland and England) 95% of recordings are done
>by tracking things individually, starting with the drums/rhythm instrument
>and building on top of that. Are we missing out? Or is there a time and a
>place for both?

Sadly, these days most recordings in the US are also made with individual
tracks and obsessive isolation. This is so that editing and punching are
possible.

If you record a group as an ensemble, it sounds a whole lot better, but
your ability to correct problems after the fact are greatly reduced. So
you actually have to have real musicians who can play it right the first
time. This is much more expensive than just tracking and editing.

>If the band are all paying together in separated booths using headphones as
>monitors would it not be the same thing as playing your individual overdub
>onto the existing backing track using cans? Whats the difference? The
>pleasure of watching the bass player bob his head? I've done some of this
>"everything at once" recording before when I was in a big enough studio and
>I have to say that we almost always went back over stuff because we just
>knew it could be played better.

A lot of it has to do with the fact that people just play together better.
They interact with one another as they perform. But in my experience,
sticking everyone into isolation booths is just as bad (and sometimes
even worse) than doing everything a track at a time.

>Are Rick Rubin, Joe Henry and Tom Waits (to name a few) the masters of the
>concept? I mean, its nothing new, its how it was done in the old days, but
>its so hard to pin down!

No, in the old days, people just all sat down in one big room and played.
And there was a lot of leakage and a lot of bleed and the ability to fix
thing after the fact was very limited, but people accepted that as a
limitation of the technology of the day.

Today people are so obsessed with every note being perfect that they have
lost sight of the overall feel of the music in many cases. The desperate
attempts to eliminate bleed at all cost, though, are starting to lose
popularity in some circles.

For a really horrifying example, pick up any 1950s recording by Rudy
Van Gelder. Then pick up any current release from him. Just listen to
the difference. They're made in the same room by the same engineer,
but with totally different production techniques.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

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"Martin Quinn" <mquinn@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:7MkFd.45514$Z14.24677@news.indigo.ie


> It seems he's discovering a whole new way of doing things in his new
> venture by trying to record at least some of the band (drums bass
> acoustic and banjo (don't ask)) all at once, separating using the
> booths in the studio. He reckons that if you solo each individual
> track you probably wouldn't keep the tracks individually if you were
> overdubbing as normal, but together they have something special,
> something intangible, something magic.

Yeah, its called interaction between the musicians.

> Maybe this is a typically American thing because I suspect these days
> that on this side of the water (Ireland and England) 95% of
> recordings are done by tracking things individually, starting with
> the drums/rhythm instrument and building on top of that. Are we
> missing out? Or is there a time and a place for both?

This takes at least 50% of the interaction away from the musicians.

> If the band are all paying together in separated booths using
> headphones as monitors would it not be the same thing as playing your
> individual overdub onto the existing backing track using cans?

Not at all.

> What's the difference? The pleasure of watching the bass player bob his
> head?

Not if you are in separate booths connected by headphones.

> I've done some of this "everything at once" recording before
> when I was in a big enough studio and I have to say that we almost
> always went back over stuff because we just knew it could be played
> better.

Meaning, that you felt that playing interactively somehow hurt your work???

> Are Rick Rubin, Joe Henry and Tom Waits (to name a few) the masters
> of the concept? I mean, its nothing new, its how it was done in the
> old days, but its so hard to pin down!

Any group that plays together live have mastered the concept if they are
successful. This one reason why a lot of live performance experience is in
the resume of many really good groups and musicians. There's a groove that
musicians can get into if they work together, in parallel.

Once upon a time when Americans fought in Vietnam, I happened into a
jamming room at a NCO club in Fort Knox. I dunno maybe 5 guys were playing
together, nothing in particular, just stringing fragments of music together
as it flowed. As I am often a case of delayed mental development, for the
first time realized that I was overhearing a musical conversation, a
conversation as real and interactive as people talking.

This sense of 2-way interaction and parallelism is often quite very
obviously missing from music that is made serially, which is how I think of
about the modern way to make music.

 

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"Martin Quinn" <mquinn@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:7MkFd.45514$Z14.24677@news.indigo.ie...

> If the band are all paying together in separated booths using headphones
as
> monitors would it not be the same thing as playing your individual overdub
> onto the existing backing track using cans? Whats the difference? The
> pleasure of watching the bass player bob his head?

From my experience, the biggest difference is that the rhythmic groove is
much better when the band plays all at once (if they're a good band). And
the tempo can breathe, rather than being stuck with a click track or the
imagination of the player who put down the first track in the overdub
scenario.

The downside, as others have said, is that it's harder to fix things after
the fact. Especially if you have to record them all in the same room as I
do (these are acoustic instruments and vocals, no amps or drums). Figure-8
pattern mics are your friend in a situation like this.

Hal Laurent
Baltimore

 

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On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:05 -0000, "Martin Quinn" <mquinn@eircom.net>
wrote:

>If the band are all paying together in separated booths using headphones as
>monitors would it not be the same thing as playing your individual overdub
>onto the existing backing track using cans? Whats the difference?

If you can't tell the difference then you might be in the wrong
business. Musicians do react to one another's playing when they play
together... at least the good ones do. There is a difference between
making tracks and making music together.

Al

 

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Arny Krueger wrote:

> This sense of 2-way interaction and parallelism is often quite very
> obviously missing from music that is made serially, which is how I
think of
> about the modern way to make music.
Hey, don't go giving serialism a bad name!

 

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"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cs4m3q$slp$1@panix2.panix.com...
>...They're made in the same room by the same engineer,
> but with totally different production techniques.

To be fair, the musicians generally dictate the production techniques. While
I think the average level of musical competence is a bit higher today, the
level of musicianship of today's best rarely reaches the same levels the
very best reached 40 years ago. I think this is partly because musicians are
paid lots worse and choose different careers and partly because back then
too many mistakes meant you'd never get called for another session. That
kind of an occasion to rise to rarely happens today.
--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http/www.hyperback.com

 

[Blackjack]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Frank Black, formerly of the Pixies, recorded a lot of his last few
albums straight to two-track.

I prefer the produced stuff that was obviously overdubbed and
perfected. Just thought I'd offer a view from the other side. CD
sales reflect my opinion too.

 

[Guest]

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Click is for film and jingles, IMHO, not songs cut with real people, where
feel is the most important thing!

Tom



"play on" <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:382cu0dc0ufvkobc94i2629las2bechuk6@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:05 -0000, "Martin Quinn" <mquinn@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>
> >If the band are all paying together in separated booths using headphones
as
> >monitors would it not be the same thing as playing your individual
overdub
> >onto the existing backing track using cans? Whats the difference?
>
> If you can't tell the difference then you might be in the wrong
> business. Musicians do react to one another's playing when they play
> together... at least the good ones do. There is a difference between
> making tracks and making music together.
>
> Al

 

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"Blackjack" <pkotheimer@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105630109.077353.151830@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Frank Black, formerly of the Pixies, recorded a lot of his last few
> albums straight to two-track.
>
> I prefer the produced stuff that was obviously overdubbed and
> perfected. Just thought I'd offer a view from the other side. CD
> sales reflect my opinion too.
>

Back in the day, as they say, we overdubbed and replaced stuff all the time.
In the middle 60s on we had the isolation we needed to do a lot. However,
most of the time we did start with the musicians all playing together. I
think that gave the artists the opportunity to achieve a groove to launch
the project, rather than starting with a single musician and a
specification, most likely a click, as so many seem to do today.

Steve King

 

[Guest]

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Also, today musicians have a different approach to keeping time, as a
result of having to compete with sequencers, drum machines, and loops.
It's really changed the feel of the groove. Today's music is more
rigidly in time but there is no flex.

Al

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:43:38 -0600, "Steve King"
<steve@REMOVETHISSPAMBLOCKsteveking.net> wrote:

>"Blackjack" <pkotheimer@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1105630109.077353.151830@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> Frank Black, formerly of the Pixies, recorded a lot of his last few
>> albums straight to two-track.
>>
>> I prefer the produced stuff that was obviously overdubbed and
>> perfected. Just thought I'd offer a view from the other side. CD
>> sales reflect my opinion too.
>>
>
>Back in the day, as they say, we overdubbed and replaced stuff all the time.
>In the middle 60s on we had the isolation we needed to do a lot. However,
>most of the time we did start with the musicians all playing together. I
>think that gave the artists the opportunity to achieve a groove to launch
>the project, rather than starting with a single musician and a
>specification, most likely a click, as so many seem to do today.
>
>Steve King
>

 

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"play on" <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4omdu0duelujnl5373am15h50qiqehq07u@4ax.com...
> Also, today musicians have a different approach to keeping time, as a
> result of having to compete with sequencers, drum machines, and loops.
> It's really changed the feel of the groove. Today's music is more
> rigidly in time but there is no flex.

The only 'different approach" is that far too many CAN'T keep decent time!

A "groove" is created by tension against even time. Many sequencers and drum
machines aren't nearly accurate enough for somebody to play or sing a groove
against.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http/www.hyperback.com

 

[Guest]

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I find that with great musicians plaing together makes a difference in
the groove, but not as much with mediocre musicians. I find that for
all musicians playing together alwyas makes adifference in the
dynamics.

Whenever a drummer says "Let me play alone to the click and then
everyone can play to my track" I always think "Not a musician..."

 

[Guest]

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In article <1105773280.667202.34700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> mike@monsterisland.com writes:

> I find that with great musicians plaing together makes a difference in
> the groove, but not as much with mediocre musicians.

So who wants recordings of mediocre musicians? Tell 'em to go home and
practice. But sadly, if you do, they'll just book another studio the
next week. Eventually they'll find someone who will take their money
and do the best job he can under the circumstances. Might as well be
you.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

 

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"Mike Caffrey" <mike@monsterisland.com> wrote in message
news:1105773280.667202.34700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I find that for
> all musicians playing together alwyas makes adifference in the
> dynamics.

Especially when they are hearing an acoustic balance with no headphones or
stage monitors. Mixes practically fall together making the engineer look
like a hero. In fact you get that magical "vintage" sound!

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http/www.hyperback.com

 

[Guest]

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On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:05 -0000, "Martin Quinn" <mquinn@eircom.net>
wrote:

>If the band are all paying together in separated booths using headphones as
>monitors would it not be the same thing as playing your individual overdub
>onto the existing backing track using cans? Whats the difference? The
>pleasure of watching the bass player bob his head? I've done some of this
>"everything at once" recording before when I was in a big enough studio and
>I have to say that we almost always went back over stuff because we just
>knew it could be played better.

That is the saddest thing I've read in a long time.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

 

[Guest]

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On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:24:27 +0000, Laurence Payne
<l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:05 -0000, "Martin Quinn" <mquinn@eircom.net>
>wrote:
>
>>If the band are all paying together in separated booths using headphones as
>>monitors would it not be the same thing as playing your individual overdub
>>onto the existing backing track using cans? Whats the difference? The
>>pleasure of watching the bass player bob his head? I've done some of this
>>"everything at once" recording before when I was in a big enough studio and
>>I have to say that we almost always went back over stuff because we just
>>knew it could be played better.
>
>That is the saddest thing I've read in a long time. <snip>

I was going to say that, but you beat me to it.

dB

 

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"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1gqfkaw.yrpp9v13xt30mN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
>... they worry their part won't be perfect. In
> front, it won't be perfect - it never was; but at least

The playing on most 50 to 80 year old recordings is utterly amazing. When
people HAD to get it right, they would rise to the occasion. Sadly when many
of the very same players no longer HAD to get it perfect in the '70s, they
didn't bother trying.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http/www.hyperback.com