And that is what we are talking about, small batteries. Because you are going AC/DC you could step down the voltage to whatever is reasonable for a charge. Otherwise, you lights would dim every time you plugged something in to charge. Obveously, for a car, you would still need to trickle charge at home, but you could have power station nodes for 'quick fillups'.
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mavroxur
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[citation][nom]jacobdrj[/nom]And that is what we are talking about, small batteries. Because you are going AC/DC you could step down the voltage to whatever is reasonable for a charge. Otherwise, you lights would dim every time you plugged something in to charge. Obveously, for a car, you would still need to trickle charge at home, but you could have power station nodes for 'quick fillups'.[/citation]
But they also mention laptop batteries. I personally dont consider a laptop battery small in the grand scheme of portable electronics. Even doing the math for small batteries like portable media players, cell phones, etc., your charging currents get high really quick if you try to turn a 1 hour charge time into a 10 second charge time even on something small like a cell phone.
But they also mention laptop batteries. I personally dont consider a laptop battery small in the grand scheme of portable electronics. Even doing the math for small batteries like portable media players, cell phones, etc., your charging currents get high really quick if you try to turn a 1 hour charge time into a 10 second charge time even on something small like a cell phone.
Lol, I wouldn't care if the battery with charger was as big as an automotive battery (not as heavy but compared to size). I would go around, stealing people's power, dumping it into my home powergrid :3
[citation][nom]jacobdrj[/nom]Yes, but you could at least up it to standard wall amp-draw instead of the measly .5-2.5 amp draw for most AC-DC converters, which never have to be higher, because the batteries couldn't utilize that juice anyways.[/citation]
Correct. A wall outlet can deliver 15 amps, although you'd need a dedicated line to get the full amount. The limiting factor will be the capacity of the connector. mavroxur is quite correct in saying it can't handle the full output of a wall outlet. If you think lithium batteries have heat problems...
However, move the technology to an electric vehicle and the situation changes. You can pump in the power at the full rate 14.2 wire can handle. ZENN Motors have already announced something along this line with their CityZENN car. It uses ultra-capacitors, not batteries, but the charging limits are the same. They project 5 minutes to fully charge it from a wall outlet.
Now if they can scale down ultra-capacitors to cell phone size...
Correct. A wall outlet can deliver 15 amps, although you'd need a dedicated line to get the full amount. The limiting factor will be the capacity of the connector. mavroxur is quite correct in saying it can't handle the full output of a wall outlet. If you think lithium batteries have heat problems...
However, move the technology to an electric vehicle and the situation changes. You can pump in the power at the full rate 14.2 wire can handle. ZENN Motors have already announced something along this line with their CityZENN car. It uses ultra-capacitors, not batteries, but the charging limits are the same. They project 5 minutes to fully charge it from a wall outlet.
Now if they can scale down ultra-capacitors to cell phone size...
[citation][nom]jacobdrj[/nom]Gasoline will never be 'history', because it is a phenominal distributed high energy controllable source of energy (stored solar power). However, it's mainstream consumer consumption should decrease, assuming we have a better way of harnesing solar energy through either wind, water, or direct solar power. Otherwise, we will just be exchanging automotive gas consumption with point source generator crude consumption...[/citation]
Actually, switching to electric still makes sense even if you have to burn coal to produce the electricity. The problem is that gasoline engines are so incredibly inefficient compared with turbines that you can produce electricity remotely, accept transmission losses and conversion losses to store it in batteries then get it back out, and you'd still produce less greenhouse gas.
The advantages gasoline has are:
1) fast refuelling
2) a well-developed infrastructure to facilitate refuelling
3) compact storage allowing a vehicle to carry enough to travel long distances between refuelling.
However, we also have a well-developed electricity infrastructure. Moreover, most people rarely use the extended range that gasoline offers. Mainly they use the large tanks to minimize refuelling. Plugging your car into a garage outlet overnight eliminates the need to stop at gas stations but doesn't help when you've got a long trip to make.
Fast refuelling can make pit stops on long trips acceptable if you don't make too many long trips. However, the CityZENN's (ultra-capacitor based) projected range is similar to that of a gas powered vehicle, so it can go head-to-head with them. That's something that will take better batteries than even these improved lithium ones.
Actually, switching to electric still makes sense even if you have to burn coal to produce the electricity. The problem is that gasoline engines are so incredibly inefficient compared with turbines that you can produce electricity remotely, accept transmission losses and conversion losses to store it in batteries then get it back out, and you'd still produce less greenhouse gas.
The advantages gasoline has are:
1) fast refuelling
2) a well-developed infrastructure to facilitate refuelling
3) compact storage allowing a vehicle to carry enough to travel long distances between refuelling.
However, we also have a well-developed electricity infrastructure. Moreover, most people rarely use the extended range that gasoline offers. Mainly they use the large tanks to minimize refuelling. Plugging your car into a garage outlet overnight eliminates the need to stop at gas stations but doesn't help when you've got a long trip to make.
Fast refuelling can make pit stops on long trips acceptable if you don't make too many long trips. However, the CityZENN's (ultra-capacitor based) projected range is similar to that of a gas powered vehicle, so it can go head-to-head with them. That's something that will take better batteries than even these improved lithium ones.
hillarymakesmecry
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Thanks Garydale for seeing my point. We could stop at electrical substations and plug in. They've got plenty of power.
Burning coal and using electricity produces 60% of the C02 of running a diesel engine in an automobile. Turbines are far more efficient.
If we built tons of nuclear plants and drove electric cars we'd have very little C02, or any air pollution for that matter. Nuclear fuel can be reprocessed and reused, we don't have to bury it underground. Jimmy Carter is at fault for the burying. They reprocess it all in France and it's a much better system.
All that said, I love cars and I love the sound of an ICE. I'll miss that when I buy an electric one day. Maybe I'll keep one for nostalgia.
Burning coal and using electricity produces 60% of the C02 of running a diesel engine in an automobile. Turbines are far more efficient.
If we built tons of nuclear plants and drove electric cars we'd have very little C02, or any air pollution for that matter. Nuclear fuel can be reprocessed and reused, we don't have to bury it underground. Jimmy Carter is at fault for the burying. They reprocess it all in France and it's a much better system.
All that said, I love cars and I love the sound of an ICE. I'll miss that when I buy an electric one day. Maybe I'll keep one for nostalgia.
[citation][nom]hillarymakesmecry[/nom]Thanks Garydale for seeing my point. We could stop at electrical substations and plug in. They've got plenty of power.Burning coal and using electricity produces 60% of the C02 of running a diesel engine in an automobile. Turbines are far more efficient. If we built tons of nuclear plants and drove electric cars we'd have very little C02, or any air pollution for that matter. Nuclear fuel can be reprocessed and reused, we don't have to bury it underground. Jimmy Carter is at fault for the burying. They reprocess it all in France and it's a much better system.All that said, I love cars and I love the sound of an ICE. I'll miss that when I buy an electric one day. Maybe I'll keep one for nostalgia.[/citation]
Have to disagree on the nuclear option. Even if we could re-process fuel to use more of it, there is still a cost. Moreover, fissionable materials are a non-renewable resource. And so far nuclear is more expensive than wind and deep-heat geothermal. Moreover, spent fuel is expensive to store because it requires guarding against terrorists who could use it for dirty bombs.
Let's go with the more purely green sources. Nuclear is too much a trade off between devils.
I'm not expecting an overnight switch to electric. I'd by one today if they had one that met my needs (suitable for highway driving, range of 100km between charging, seats 4 and has cargo space). Basically I'm looking for an electric Toyota Corolla with possibly a more restricted range.
Since most recharging can be done overnight when power demand is lowest, there is no strain on the grid. Other conservation efforts which should be taking place concurrently should also be reducing power usage, so that there will be no real need to upgrade the grid specifically to handle electric vehicles.
Have to disagree on the nuclear option. Even if we could re-process fuel to use more of it, there is still a cost. Moreover, fissionable materials are a non-renewable resource. And so far nuclear is more expensive than wind and deep-heat geothermal. Moreover, spent fuel is expensive to store because it requires guarding against terrorists who could use it for dirty bombs.
Let's go with the more purely green sources. Nuclear is too much a trade off between devils.
I'm not expecting an overnight switch to electric. I'd by one today if they had one that met my needs (suitable for highway driving, range of 100km between charging, seats 4 and has cargo space). Basically I'm looking for an electric Toyota Corolla with possibly a more restricted range.
Since most recharging can be done overnight when power demand is lowest, there is no strain on the grid. Other conservation efforts which should be taking place concurrently should also be reducing power usage, so that there will be no real need to upgrade the grid specifically to handle electric vehicles.
[citation][nom]mavroxur[/nom]Does anyone else not see the fundamental flaw with this? Since energy cannot be created nor destroyed, to accomplish the same amount of work that a 100mA charge for 2 hours would do, you would have to charge at a rate of 12A for 1 minute to get the same effect. 10 Seconds? Do the math. I dont know of a small dainty wall adapter that can chug out 12A, let alone a small charging jack on a cell phone that could take several amps.[/citation]
Granted, it's late and I'm tired, but here's how I took the article:
The ions move slowly because they don't all hit these 'surface tunnels'. So it takes a lot of energy quite a while to charge the battery. However, if all of the energy was moving through these tunnels, then that same amount of energy should only take a fraction of the time to charge the battery.
Yes? No?
Granted, it's late and I'm tired, but here's how I took the article:
The ions move slowly because they don't all hit these 'surface tunnels'. So it takes a lot of energy quite a while to charge the battery. However, if all of the energy was moving through these tunnels, then that same amount of energy should only take a fraction of the time to charge the battery.
Yes? No?
Without denying that I wouldn't love faster charging batteries I did find 'Cutting down battery recharge time -while saving valuable consumer time- would change the lifestyle of every individual on the face of the planet, whether they're juicing up Sony's PlayStation Portable or keeping YouTube on the laptop from blacking out.' to be a bit rich. So these faster charging batteries are going to suddenly change the life of a random villager in India or China? I mean well and good for those of us living somewhere that is drowning in battery powered toys, but 'every individual on the planet'?
As mavroxur already pointed out the limitation from a mathematical POV, nobody observed the physical implications.
For an extreme fast charging of a cell you'll need extremely high power for a short period, that also implies extremely high currents, as the voltage remains the same. But high currents imply a very low resistance in the current flow. Even if the internal geometry modifications offer an extremely smaller resistance at microscopical level, at a macroscopical one changes also need to be made, to reduce conductor resistance. That'll be much more difficult to obtain, except for superconductors.
For an extreme fast charging of a cell you'll need extremely high power for a short period, that also implies extremely high currents, as the voltage remains the same. But high currents imply a very low resistance in the current flow. Even if the internal geometry modifications offer an extremely smaller resistance at microscopical level, at a macroscopical one changes also need to be made, to reduce conductor resistance. That'll be much more difficult to obtain, except for superconductors.
[citation][nom]magicandy[/nom]Hey look another MIT breakthrough battery tech we won't see for another 10 years because the large battery producing corporations are making enough money keeping mainstream tech at a snail's pace. Stretch it out, it'll last longer. *eyeroll*Just think of how advanced we could be if we used a resource-based economy rather than crippling progress without our money-based economy. Things like this would be incorporated into every day life much more quickly, rather than waiting years and years for a company to decide that it has made enough money stalling the old tech. Lose the money, change the incentive for humanity.[/citation]
Normally I would agree with you, but with the push towards electric powered car's your going to see a lot of development in the area of quick charge batteries since large capacity alone won't cut it.
Normally I would agree with you, but with the push towards electric powered car's your going to see a lot of development in the area of quick charge batteries since large capacity alone won't cut it.
[citation][nom]mavroxur[/nom]But they also mention laptop batteries. I personally dont consider a laptop battery small in the grand scheme of portable electronics. Even doing the math for small batteries like portable media players, cell phones, etc., your charging currents get high really quick if you try to turn a 1 hour charge time into a 10 second charge time even on something small like a cell phone.[/citation]
Well, if we are talking about this technology increasing the 'speed' and nor the capacity, my phone, for example, has a 1700 mah battery. My laptop has a 6600 mah battery. It is larger, by a factor of 5, but considering there are reasonably priced power supply units for computers that can deliver over a kilowatt of power from AC to DC, I don't think charging a single laptop battery would be too much of a difference. Perhaps 1 minute, rather than 10 seconds, but that is still within the realm of reason, and still a huge improvement. Even if the time was reduced from 1.5 hours to 30 minutes, that is a big deal in productivity improvement.
I have to say, this has been one of the more interesting discussions I have had on this subject 😉
Well, if we are talking about this technology increasing the 'speed' and nor the capacity, my phone, for example, has a 1700 mah battery. My laptop has a 6600 mah battery. It is larger, by a factor of 5, but considering there are reasonably priced power supply units for computers that can deliver over a kilowatt of power from AC to DC, I don't think charging a single laptop battery would be too much of a difference. Perhaps 1 minute, rather than 10 seconds, but that is still within the realm of reason, and still a huge improvement. Even if the time was reduced from 1.5 hours to 30 minutes, that is a big deal in productivity improvement.
I have to say, this has been one of the more interesting discussions I have had on this subject 😉
jreeve0805
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"change the lifestyle of every individual on the face of the planet". ummm bold statement considering about 1,126,700,000 (1.1 Billion) people don't have access to clean drinking water. What makes you think these people use rechargeable
mavroxur
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[citation][nom]jreeve0805[/nom]"change the lifestyle of every individual on the face of the planet". ummm bold statement considering about 1,126,700,000 (1.1 Billion) people don't have access to clean drinking water. What makes you think these people use rechargeable[/citation]
It's possible that some people pee in their drinking water AND own a Blackberry.
It's possible that some people pee in their drinking water AND own a Blackberry.
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