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chewy1963
Honorable
- May 9, 2012
- 43
- 0
- 10,580
[citation][nom]A Bad Day[/nom]What about memory controller on CPU? Or L2/L3 cache on CPU? Or northbridge on CPU? Or VRAM on GPU?[/citation]
[citation][nom]A Bad Day[/nom]Oh, let's not forget about the motherboard. USB, SATA, Ethernet, audio, PCI-E, voltage regulators, all integrated.Or SSD. Flash chip, controller chip and SATA/PCI-E connector.[/citation]
Integration like you are siting here actually increases 'greeness' because you now have fewer chips being manufactured (and correspondingly less industrial waste as a result) plus fewer chips and smaller pc boards being put into landfills.
[citation][nom]A Bad Day[/nom]Oh, let's not forget about the motherboard. USB, SATA, Ethernet, audio, PCI-E, voltage regulators, all integrated.Or SSD. Flash chip, controller chip and SATA/PCI-E connector.[/citation]
Integration like you are siting here actually increases 'greeness' because you now have fewer chips being manufactured (and correspondingly less industrial waste as a result) plus fewer chips and smaller pc boards being put into landfills.
Some of these part being combined arguments are stupid... GPU+CPU, memory controllers being on the CPU.
When was the last time you could upgrade a memory controller in any PC system exasperated of the CPU? I can't think of one at all, even when the controller was on one of the "Bridge Chips", which have for years also controlled the on board Drive controller functions. When was the last time those were up-gradable?? It made sense for performance to move it on board of the CPU, for power and latency issues... we already know that the SDRAM chips trace lengths are limited due to the speed of the electrons which in theory move or can move at nearly the speed of light. AMD showed that moving the memory controller from the North Bridge was a smart move when their 64 bit chips where blowing away everything Intel had. AMD's CPU's were faster and better than Intel's for quite a time, and eventually Intel adopted the controller on the CPU.... which to me means squat because having it on a the CPU which you usually can replace now makes it replacable with one that better matches to the CPU you are using... but can anyone remember un-soldering or pulling North Bridge chips to upgrade your memory controllers?
The only one that really has merit is the GPU issue, and most computers today that have GPU on the CPU can go discreet with plugging in a graphics card. Now with Thunderbolt basically being a direct extention of PCIE, don't be surprised to see a Thunderbolt to PCI-E plug just as there is for laptop's and ExpressPort. I took my HP and went from an Intel on board to a 16x external card slot that plugged into my ExpressPort card... even though it was only a 1x connection, it made a HUGE difference in what games I could play, given thunderbolt is 4x, I would expect to see a Thunderbolt 2.0 go a full 16x, but for most purposes, a 4x would give most mid-range graphics cards enough bandwidth to be used quite well.
I do have a problem with making memory not expandable, and that is an issue. There is an issue where a company can go to far, and to me, the less chips the better, SoC is a great idea as it can overcome many issues... but start to hardwire in the SoC and prevent replacement then we have an issue... But if they do solder in an SoC but provide the way to upgrade the parts of the PC that people upgrade, then there really should not be an issue... I don't like the Integrated GPU, go discreet.. I need more memory, buy more and plug it in... I need more SATA or USB plugs, use the expansion slots... the issue really comes into focus when you eliminate the memory and GPU. Access to the HDD or SSD should be provided so they can be swapped out... we are seeing 3-5 year old laptops lives being extended by replacing the old HDD with an SSD... If Apples goal was to force more sales, then its bad... if it is for design only, and not to force users to by a system, then I really don't know what to say... I think if they would allow OS/X to be used legally on other systems and Apple had some Competition, it would force even more innovation for Apple, and even help push the Intel/AMD/Windows (Wintel) systems to a new level. Apple already closes their OS to their systems, but to start to really limit upgrade options or the ability to upgrade on purpose and then start to release new better systems fast, on a yearly basis and be forced to buy a new system to have that would be a bad move... Thats why I have stuck PC. I can swap out my CPU, my GPU, my cooling solution, my power supply, my memory, or move it all to a different case with no changes gives flexability. We still see systems that are not Sandy and Ivy Bridge leading some benchmarks...
There are bad moves to Integration and good moves... many are good.... heck, I think GPU on the CPU is not a bad thing, not that I would buy one for my PC, but as long as I could get a discreet card, upgrade my HDD/SSD, and upgrade memory, those are the real keys to keeping a system running for longer than 2 years and still stay in the range of really usable. The ability to change the CPU is a plus, but I won't pass judgement on that call...
Overall the fact they pulled out of the certification to me doesn't mean a thing.. because they are pulled doesn't mean they do not meet that certification. I am very leary of environmental certifications in the first place... like one user said, most of the stuff is produced oversea's where all of this doesn't matter. Where this Cert really does not mean a thing and a MAC and PC plant produce the same waste, disposed in the same way. Personally, if the government would lower the taxes on businesses in the US down to match the world average instead of being the highest in the world, we would have more companies move here, and actually leverage proper tariffs so that the companies import tariff's help level the wage difference, I think more companies would come back to the U.S. and then we could control more of the green side of things, but by bringing all if it back to the U.S. I wouldn't do it by legislation, I would do it like Apple has been already... people who care about the environment will pay a few dollars more for those who keep the environment clean... that way we could vote the most important way, by the dollar.. It would be win-win-win.. more jobs here, more money for workers here, and everyone would not always have to pay by the lowest price, but by their morals. The problem really starts by business's moving out of our country and control... and that starts by taxes... Apple isn't concerned... many should know they are building a huge new Russian building for an Apple Russia HQ, but they wouldn't need such a big one if the tax difference between the US and other countries was so big...
The problem is choices, and Apple is doing away with upgrading choices... and making their PC's like iPad's and iPhones, and the only way to upgrade is to buy a new one... soon, you won't even be able to plug in an external monitor to your Mac Laptop...
Just my 2 cents that turned into 2 dollars... sorry if my thoughts wondered but in the end, it all ties together... choice... meaningful choice... The person that brought up Memory controllers and disk options and so on brought up a mis-direct as those never were upgradable on motherboards in at least the last 20 years if even ever... and in the case of the memory controllers being on the CPU, if you upgrade the CPU, you get the best controller for that CPU with no distance or signal degradation allowing for better performance, every other thing mentioned can be done with expansion slots, which is what is important.. take those away, the ability to replace the CPU, and close off HDD/SSD upgrades, and do not allow memory replacement or expansion, and you basically create a business model for a desktop computer with the replacement/selling cycle for your iPad/iPhone, and that is going TO far.
When was the last time you could upgrade a memory controller in any PC system exasperated of the CPU? I can't think of one at all, even when the controller was on one of the "Bridge Chips", which have for years also controlled the on board Drive controller functions. When was the last time those were up-gradable?? It made sense for performance to move it on board of the CPU, for power and latency issues... we already know that the SDRAM chips trace lengths are limited due to the speed of the electrons which in theory move or can move at nearly the speed of light. AMD showed that moving the memory controller from the North Bridge was a smart move when their 64 bit chips where blowing away everything Intel had. AMD's CPU's were faster and better than Intel's for quite a time, and eventually Intel adopted the controller on the CPU.... which to me means squat because having it on a the CPU which you usually can replace now makes it replacable with one that better matches to the CPU you are using... but can anyone remember un-soldering or pulling North Bridge chips to upgrade your memory controllers?
The only one that really has merit is the GPU issue, and most computers today that have GPU on the CPU can go discreet with plugging in a graphics card. Now with Thunderbolt basically being a direct extention of PCIE, don't be surprised to see a Thunderbolt to PCI-E plug just as there is for laptop's and ExpressPort. I took my HP and went from an Intel on board to a 16x external card slot that plugged into my ExpressPort card... even though it was only a 1x connection, it made a HUGE difference in what games I could play, given thunderbolt is 4x, I would expect to see a Thunderbolt 2.0 go a full 16x, but for most purposes, a 4x would give most mid-range graphics cards enough bandwidth to be used quite well.
I do have a problem with making memory not expandable, and that is an issue. There is an issue where a company can go to far, and to me, the less chips the better, SoC is a great idea as it can overcome many issues... but start to hardwire in the SoC and prevent replacement then we have an issue... But if they do solder in an SoC but provide the way to upgrade the parts of the PC that people upgrade, then there really should not be an issue... I don't like the Integrated GPU, go discreet.. I need more memory, buy more and plug it in... I need more SATA or USB plugs, use the expansion slots... the issue really comes into focus when you eliminate the memory and GPU. Access to the HDD or SSD should be provided so they can be swapped out... we are seeing 3-5 year old laptops lives being extended by replacing the old HDD with an SSD... If Apples goal was to force more sales, then its bad... if it is for design only, and not to force users to by a system, then I really don't know what to say... I think if they would allow OS/X to be used legally on other systems and Apple had some Competition, it would force even more innovation for Apple, and even help push the Intel/AMD/Windows (Wintel) systems to a new level. Apple already closes their OS to their systems, but to start to really limit upgrade options or the ability to upgrade on purpose and then start to release new better systems fast, on a yearly basis and be forced to buy a new system to have that would be a bad move... Thats why I have stuck PC. I can swap out my CPU, my GPU, my cooling solution, my power supply, my memory, or move it all to a different case with no changes gives flexability. We still see systems that are not Sandy and Ivy Bridge leading some benchmarks...
There are bad moves to Integration and good moves... many are good.... heck, I think GPU on the CPU is not a bad thing, not that I would buy one for my PC, but as long as I could get a discreet card, upgrade my HDD/SSD, and upgrade memory, those are the real keys to keeping a system running for longer than 2 years and still stay in the range of really usable. The ability to change the CPU is a plus, but I won't pass judgement on that call...
Overall the fact they pulled out of the certification to me doesn't mean a thing.. because they are pulled doesn't mean they do not meet that certification. I am very leary of environmental certifications in the first place... like one user said, most of the stuff is produced oversea's where all of this doesn't matter. Where this Cert really does not mean a thing and a MAC and PC plant produce the same waste, disposed in the same way. Personally, if the government would lower the taxes on businesses in the US down to match the world average instead of being the highest in the world, we would have more companies move here, and actually leverage proper tariffs so that the companies import tariff's help level the wage difference, I think more companies would come back to the U.S. and then we could control more of the green side of things, but by bringing all if it back to the U.S. I wouldn't do it by legislation, I would do it like Apple has been already... people who care about the environment will pay a few dollars more for those who keep the environment clean... that way we could vote the most important way, by the dollar.. It would be win-win-win.. more jobs here, more money for workers here, and everyone would not always have to pay by the lowest price, but by their morals. The problem really starts by business's moving out of our country and control... and that starts by taxes... Apple isn't concerned... many should know they are building a huge new Russian building for an Apple Russia HQ, but they wouldn't need such a big one if the tax difference between the US and other countries was so big...
The problem is choices, and Apple is doing away with upgrading choices... and making their PC's like iPad's and iPhones, and the only way to upgrade is to buy a new one... soon, you won't even be able to plug in an external monitor to your Mac Laptop...
Just my 2 cents that turned into 2 dollars... sorry if my thoughts wondered but in the end, it all ties together... choice... meaningful choice... The person that brought up Memory controllers and disk options and so on brought up a mis-direct as those never were upgradable on motherboards in at least the last 20 years if even ever... and in the case of the memory controllers being on the CPU, if you upgrade the CPU, you get the best controller for that CPU with no distance or signal degradation allowing for better performance, every other thing mentioned can be done with expansion slots, which is what is important.. take those away, the ability to replace the CPU, and close off HDD/SSD upgrades, and do not allow memory replacement or expansion, and you basically create a business model for a desktop computer with the replacement/selling cycle for your iPad/iPhone, and that is going TO far.
With a low market share of only about 5% worldwide i thought apple tried to sell Mac whenever they could, after all whats one computer in twenty!? Or they might changed the approach, earn as much as possible for that five percent environmentally disastrous or not!
Most Mac users say they care about the environment, but they really don't. They just want something that looks cool and nice and fits in with their hip liberal friends. Apple targets these people to increase their sales. Apple knows full well that these people will not sacrifice their comfort for a principle they supposedly care. If they really cared about the environment and human rights, why would they buy anything made by Apple in the first place?
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