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Start[citation][nom]ddrum2000[/nom] The two most common self reported reasons are:-Science/engineering majors are too work-Business degrees are less work and you will get paid more upon graduationIts a simple problem that as a society we tend not to value science and math education (and many other subjects for that matter) enough to employ well trained primary and secondary school teachers. In addition, many school districts are beginning to place limits on the total number of hours of homework that can be given per night at elementary and middle school levels. Its something low like 1-1.5 hours maximum. By the time kids reach high school, on average they are already behind compared to most other developed nations in the world. So once the reach college they are already at a disadvantage and will be playing catch up. If you extend this further to grad school and the professional setting, its no surprise that Asia is taking us to town in technology industries. In general, they have better scientifically trained workforces than the US and both the student and parents are willing to do the hard work in school necessary to complete a technology degree and get a high paying technology job.[/citation]
Yea that sounds like the results of a self-reported survey. In reality, there only a handfull of business schools who's graduates will command a price premium over Engineering grads from any of several hundred high quality programs in the US (I can think of about a dozen here in NY alone). When students exit those programs it's mainly due to the difficulty (not any expectation of making more elsewhere... unless they're switching to medicine) and the inability of our primary and secondary school systems to prepare US students for Science and Technical University programs. In the list of the top paying Undergrad Majors, a business degree is nowhere to be seen but Engineering dominates the bulk of the top 20 slots. Bottom line, Engineering pays well if you're competent and willing to stay current and work hard. Over the very long term you will find it hard to keep your income growth rate unless you're willing to move to management, but at that point you'll find you likely don't need a business degree to crack the door open.
Yea that sounds like the results of a self-reported survey. In reality, there only a handfull of business schools who's graduates will command a price premium over Engineering grads from any of several hundred high quality programs in the US (I can think of about a dozen here in NY alone). When students exit those programs it's mainly due to the difficulty (not any expectation of making more elsewhere... unless they're switching to medicine) and the inability of our primary and secondary school systems to prepare US students for Science and Technical University programs. In the list of the top paying Undergrad Majors, a business degree is nowhere to be seen but Engineering dominates the bulk of the top 20 slots. Bottom line, Engineering pays well if you're competent and willing to stay current and work hard. Over the very long term you will find it hard to keep your income growth rate unless you're willing to move to management, but at that point you'll find you likely don't need a business degree to crack the door open.
igot1forya
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Back in the day, I was planning on going into automotive or mechanical engineering - did rather well (even enjoyed it). I opted instead to go into IT and am glad I did. Everyone I know who continued forward either could not find a job out of school or lost it in the next few years as the auto industry bombed or sent the work overseas. Now, I'm over-worked in IT... hmmm maybe I should go back into engineering 
[citation][nom]ap3x[/nom]This is great advice. Unfortunately kids are told that once they get their degree they can get a high paying job. Not the case at all in most cases. Companies look for experience first so spacemonley hit the nail on the head. This especially applies to engineering jobs. Internships help with that however still a person with a degree and no experience will loose out to a person with experience with no degree almost 100% of the time. So get your foot in the door and get the experience and in a few years the money will come.[/citation]
It can be tough to find experienced candidates to fill some roles, so don't assume that just because you don't have experience you automatically lose out to someone who's been in industry for a few years. I hired two Engineers into my group last year, both fresh out of school (PhD's) because I couldn't find experienced engineers with the correct skill set (looked for more than a year). At that point it's better to get a new grad who's willing to learn the required skills than hire a senior person with the wrong skills. Internships are also very important... my company expects any interns to be potential hires - if you don't extend an offer when they graduate you have to explain why (it is a really excellent program however... not all interships are created equal).
It can be tough to find experienced candidates to fill some roles, so don't assume that just because you don't have experience you automatically lose out to someone who's been in industry for a few years. I hired two Engineers into my group last year, both fresh out of school (PhD's) because I couldn't find experienced engineers with the correct skill set (looked for more than a year). At that point it's better to get a new grad who's willing to learn the required skills than hire a senior person with the wrong skills. Internships are also very important... my company expects any interns to be potential hires - if you don't extend an offer when they graduate you have to explain why (it is a really excellent program however... not all interships are created equal).
astrodudepsu
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I graduated in 2008 with a BS in Astronomy and Astrophysics from Penn State. I had 2 job offers before graduation, one dealing with mathematics the other was an aerospace/electrical engineering job (the one I took). I was honestly surprised I was offered both, so I asked the hiring managers why I was chosen over people with direct degrees in those fields of study. I was told two basic things, 1: I had a previous internship and 2 years of research experience, and 2: I could actually communicate effectively with people!
Never discount good social skills, it's something that a lot of scientists and engineers skimp on but it's extremely important.
Never discount good social skills, it's something that a lot of scientists and engineers skimp on but it's extremely important.
[citation][nom]D_Kuhn[/nom]It can be tough to find experienced candidates to fill some roles, so don't assume that just because you don't have experience you automatically lose out to someone who's been in industry for a few years. I hired two Engineers into my group last year, both fresh out of school (PhD's) because I couldn't find experienced engineers with the correct skill set (looked for more than a year). At that point it's better to get a new grad who's willing to learn the required skills than hire a senior person with the wrong skills. Internships are also very important... my company expects any interns to be potential hires - if you don't extend an offer when they graduate you have to explain why (it is a really excellent program however... not all interships are created equal).[/citation]
That is understandable but you just said "I hired two Engineers into my group last year, both fresh out of school (PhD's) because I couldn't find experienced engineers with the correct skill set". Your issue was the lack of availability of talent with the proper background or skill set. If they were available you still have opted to hire two guys fresh out of school?
Some cities have a large concentration of talent in certain fields and some cities don't and they end of having to search for people out of state or hire direct from a university and train. So based on what you said in all fairness I believe that my post as well as spacemonkey's was accurate not taking into account to issue of availability.
As far as compensation, depending on the job would you agree that a person of the correct skillset required for the position you where hiring for would perhaps fetch a stronger compensation package as well?
Astrodude made a great point as well. Great communication and social skills should never be skimped on and is a great differentiator.
That is understandable but you just said "I hired two Engineers into my group last year, both fresh out of school (PhD's) because I couldn't find experienced engineers with the correct skill set". Your issue was the lack of availability of talent with the proper background or skill set. If they were available you still have opted to hire two guys fresh out of school?
Some cities have a large concentration of talent in certain fields and some cities don't and they end of having to search for people out of state or hire direct from a university and train. So based on what you said in all fairness I believe that my post as well as spacemonkey's was accurate not taking into account to issue of availability.
As far as compensation, depending on the job would you agree that a person of the correct skillset required for the position you where hiring for would perhaps fetch a stronger compensation package as well?
Astrodude made a great point as well. Great communication and social skills should never be skimped on and is a great differentiator.
I graduated in the early 90's. The market was not good back then (gee Jellico, must have been that Bush/Reagan era). Then, there was the boom of the mid 90's. Part of the boom was that small companies were created and small companies drive the job market. They are quicker to hire and do not shy away from hiring non experienced employees. Unfortunately, the market turned vertical by early 2000's. Job growth slowed painfully. By the mid decade, growth came to a halt (well before Obama mind you). With fewer small companies around, as the market ebbs and flows and investors ebb and flow their investments, the job market ebbs and flows as well. Too few companies around. Mostly large companies and if something happens to a large company, it affects a large group of people.
You saw this in high tech companies, mechanical engineering companies, construction/civil engineering companies, and even pharmaceutical engineering companies. Small companies were bought out by the hundreds and consolidated. People got squeezed out. Companies went foreign for cheap labor trying to get the 'bottom line' to look right for fidgety investors.
Now, what all of that had to do with Obama I have no clue. I guess I've been around longer than most of you on this thread and thus know better having lived the trends for over 20 years. It isn't a democrat vs. republican issue. It is a business issue. Fewer companies, a vertical market, and the use of foreign employees is the current issue. It has almost nothing to do with Obama or Bush or Clinton or Bush Sr. or even Reagan.
By the way, the things people complain about now are the same as they have just about always been except for a few years in the late 90's. New grads have always complained about the market. You sound no different than we did and others before you. The difference is the hindsight.
You saw this in high tech companies, mechanical engineering companies, construction/civil engineering companies, and even pharmaceutical engineering companies. Small companies were bought out by the hundreds and consolidated. People got squeezed out. Companies went foreign for cheap labor trying to get the 'bottom line' to look right for fidgety investors.
Now, what all of that had to do with Obama I have no clue. I guess I've been around longer than most of you on this thread and thus know better having lived the trends for over 20 years. It isn't a democrat vs. republican issue. It is a business issue. Fewer companies, a vertical market, and the use of foreign employees is the current issue. It has almost nothing to do with Obama or Bush or Clinton or Bush Sr. or even Reagan.
By the way, the things people complain about now are the same as they have just about always been except for a few years in the late 90's. New grads have always complained about the market. You sound no different than we did and others before you. The difference is the hindsight.
dgingeri
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the big problem is the latest college grads are a bunch of kids with no good work habits. Hard work holds almost no value to many of the new grads. They want to work in groups, have the group carry them, and get paid as much as everyone else. I've had to deal with it far too often.
the reason behind this is the "Dr Spock" theory of raising kids. "Positive reinforcement" is the big word. The bad thing about that is that most kids raised that way end up with huge egos, thinking the whole world is centered around them, and no work ethic. Each generation ever since the 60's has been worse and worse. Ever wonder why they called our grandparents "the greatest generation"? It wasn't because they beat Hitler.
When we get a generation that has relearned the value of a good work ethic and doing their own share of things, then we'll start seeing a resurgence of this country. My worry is that it won't be for another 200 years, and only after this country collapses and has to be rebuild from the ground up.
the reason behind this is the "Dr Spock" theory of raising kids. "Positive reinforcement" is the big word. The bad thing about that is that most kids raised that way end up with huge egos, thinking the whole world is centered around them, and no work ethic. Each generation ever since the 60's has been worse and worse. Ever wonder why they called our grandparents "the greatest generation"? It wasn't because they beat Hitler.
When we get a generation that has relearned the value of a good work ethic and doing their own share of things, then we'll start seeing a resurgence of this country. My worry is that it won't be for another 200 years, and only after this country collapses and has to be rebuild from the ground up.
Canidae1111
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Interesting, and just as I am preparing to enroll to get my BS in Mechanical Engineering, I'm still going to do it though, despite these statistics. I have a passion for science, and inventing, and I have ideas for many different machines I feel could be of real use to the world. If it turns out I can't get hired by a good company at that time, I'll just have to strike it out on my own, and find investors to start my own small business. It will probably be hard, but hell, so is life, and I don't plan on giving up on that either.
[citation][nom]Grael4[/nom]Interesting, and just as I am preparing to enroll to get my BS in Mechanical Engineering, I'm still going to do it though, despite these statistics. I have a passion for science, and inventing, and I have ideas for many different machines I feel could be of real use to the world. If it turns out I can't get hired by a good company at that time, I'll just have to strike it out on my own, and find investors to start my own small business. It will probably be hard, but hell, so is life, and I don't plan on giving up on that either.[/citation]
Greal, we need more students like you. I'd love to have you in my class.
Greal, we need more students like you. I'd love to have you in my class.
Northwestern
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Well this changes my view on my future college career. I'd love to enter engineering, but I'd hate to graduate into a halting field while worrying about my personal debt.
I am in huge agreement with dgingeri. This country is too lazy as the last two generations, including mine have enjoyed the leisure life, having the thought that you can achieve everything while doing nothing. A horrible combonation of bad worth ethic and job consuming third-world countries have really started to kill this country.
I am in huge agreement with dgingeri. This country is too lazy as the last two generations, including mine have enjoyed the leisure life, having the thought that you can achieve everything while doing nothing. A horrible combonation of bad worth ethic and job consuming third-world countries have really started to kill this country.
[citation][nom]northwestern[/nom]Well this changes my view on my future college career. I'd love to enter engineering, but I'd hate to graduate into a halting field while worrying about my personal debt.I am in huge agreement with dgingeri. This country is too lazy as the last two generations, including mine have enjoyed the leisure life, having the thought that you can achieve everything while doing nothing. A horrible combonation of bad worth ethic and job consuming third-world countries have really started to kill this country.[/citation]
Engineering jobs will never halt. There are just less jobs in certain areas of engineering than others. In the high tech areas, we are severely lacking engineers as many companies will not sponsor work visas for foreign nationals which leaves a gaping hole. Some much of it depends on the field you are interested in. If you are motivated and are willing to work hard both academically and in the work place, there will always be a job waiting for you. What has hurt hiring in the US is that many college students are not willing to work hard and thus are either unprepared to enter the workplace or drop out of science and engineering as a degree plan.
Engineering jobs will never halt. There are just less jobs in certain areas of engineering than others. In the high tech areas, we are severely lacking engineers as many companies will not sponsor work visas for foreign nationals which leaves a gaping hole. Some much of it depends on the field you are interested in. If you are motivated and are willing to work hard both academically and in the work place, there will always be a job waiting for you. What has hurt hiring in the US is that many college students are not willing to work hard and thus are either unprepared to enter the workplace or drop out of science and engineering as a degree plan.
Very true ddrum2000. Hard work has been replaced by an entitlement attitude. "I am entitled to a great job because I went to school". Get real people! It has NEVER been like that. You always had to prove yourself first, then get that great job. Only the rich got the entitlements. If you aren't the son or daughter of somebody important, than you will just have to prove yourself. Absolutely nothing has changed in the world except the attitude of this generation.
Not my experience at all...Currently employed (first job after college, graduated in 2008). I still have my resume up on monster just for gigles. I get at least 3-6 calls a month. So i am not sure what the deal is, but seems like it might be resume related. If hiring managers are looking for a specific skills set, then the wording on the resume might matter a lot...just my 2 cent (then again, I might be wrong about the cause)
all the engineers and scientists form a union, something like what medical doctors and lawyers have done... force the hand a bit...
mikeangs2004
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wild9
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Controversial but nonetheless relevant I feel.. economically, the United States is 'running on empty'. It's living in debt, and the debt is bought and paid for by overseas interests.
Look at the new industries. Some say these are based on working for a socialist government, a bureaucracy gone crazy that creates jobs by creating enemies. You are the enemy unless you comply. Iran is deemed an enemy, too.. that's why neighboring states are being supplied with $billions in defense parts - whilst American families are living on the streets. War is the new industry. The American public or anyone who stands in the way of change is the new enemy. All you need to oil the cogs of an industrial-military-complex is some kind of big pretext, a major event. A catalyst of sorts.
Man American jobs are being outsourced, or taken by people who have no right to be in the country in the first place. These are potential voters. Remember that. Even with the best engineers, the best scientists money can buy, the debt of this country has been bought and paid for a long time ago and what is happening is not by mistake but by design. The middle class are the number one enemy in this country and the people who bought the debt..they can and they will destroy the place before they stop.
Just think about this for a second. What industry is there in your town, aside from service industries or working for the Federal government? Is this what you really want? Is this the American dream? Where is this country going in terms of resource allocation and wealth distribution? It's easy to see. You only have to look at the outsourcing and inward migration trends and associated population movement. Unless there's a war and an industry based around it, an industry based on fear, then the only means by which this country can compete economically is to compete with sweat-shops. If this country served her own interests first, got the hell out of other people's and locked her own damn borders, this country would then be in a better position to help itself.
Look at the new industries. Some say these are based on working for a socialist government, a bureaucracy gone crazy that creates jobs by creating enemies. You are the enemy unless you comply. Iran is deemed an enemy, too.. that's why neighboring states are being supplied with $billions in defense parts - whilst American families are living on the streets. War is the new industry. The American public or anyone who stands in the way of change is the new enemy. All you need to oil the cogs of an industrial-military-complex is some kind of big pretext, a major event. A catalyst of sorts.
Man American jobs are being outsourced, or taken by people who have no right to be in the country in the first place. These are potential voters. Remember that. Even with the best engineers, the best scientists money can buy, the debt of this country has been bought and paid for a long time ago and what is happening is not by mistake but by design. The middle class are the number one enemy in this country and the people who bought the debt..they can and they will destroy the place before they stop.
Just think about this for a second. What industry is there in your town, aside from service industries or working for the Federal government? Is this what you really want? Is this the American dream? Where is this country going in terms of resource allocation and wealth distribution? It's easy to see. You only have to look at the outsourcing and inward migration trends and associated population movement. Unless there's a war and an industry based around it, an industry based on fear, then the only means by which this country can compete economically is to compete with sweat-shops. If this country served her own interests first, got the hell out of other people's and locked her own damn borders, this country would then be in a better position to help itself.
I got my BS Computer Engineering Degree a year ago. Till now I haven't got a proper job but am doing projects here and there. Whenever I look at the market I see that I have to change my target segment to computer sciences to get even a slightly decent job which irritates and frustrates me immensely.
Though I am a very good programmer, I can easily migrate to application programming but I really want to design new computerized automation and control systems.That's why I have stuck myself with projects and will stick with such till I can or till I get married which will require me to have a steady income...
Though I am a very good programmer, I can easily migrate to application programming but I really want to design new computerized automation and control systems.That's why I have stuck myself with projects and will stick with such till I can or till I get married which will require me to have a steady income...
drapacioli
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- Dec 6, 2010
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