Sound Forge's Acoustic Modeler

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Anybody know if the latest version of Acoustic Modeler that comes
with Sound Forge works in 32 bits? The stand alone incarnation I
bought when they still marketed and supported it stopped at 16 bit
and I need 32 now.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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Bob Cain wrote:
>
> Anybody know if the latest version of Acoustic Modeler that comes
> with Sound Forge works in 32 bits? The stand alone incarnation I
> bought when they still marketed and supported it stopped at 16 bit
> and I need 32 now.

Aargh. I wasn't explicit enough. I meant whether or not it supports
32 bit recorded and test files in its "Recover" function.


Bob
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A. Einstein
 
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"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:cq0mer0nhn@enews1.newsguy.com...
>
> Anybody know if the latest version of Acoustic Modeler that comes
> with Sound Forge works in 32 bits? The stand alone incarnation I
> bought when they still marketed and supported it stopped at 16 bit
> and I need 32 now.

You mean the Acoustic Mirror, right? I don't know what the latest version of
Sound Forge is, but I have v5.0, and it works in 32 bits in that version, so
I would assume it does in any newer versions, as well.

Neil Henderson
 
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Neil Henderson wrote:
> "Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
> news:cq0mer0nhn@enews1.newsguy.com...
>
>>Anybody know if the latest version of Acoustic Modeler that comes
>>with Sound Forge works in 32 bits? The stand alone incarnation I
>>bought when they still marketed and supported it stopped at 16 bit
>>and I need 32 now.
>
>
> You mean the Acoustic Mirror, right? I don't know what the latest version of
> Sound Forge is, but I have v5.0, and it works in 32 bits in that version, so
> I would assume it does in any newer versions, as well.

Good news. As a stand alone product it was called Acoustic Modeler. Now to
find the .dll or .ax for the latest. Damned if I'm going to buy all of
Sound Forge to get an upgrade that should have been made available to
purchasers of the stand alone plug. Sorta pissed me off that they left
us holding the bag on that one.


Thanks,

Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:14:27 -0800, Bob Cain
<arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:

>
>
>Bob Cain wrote:
>>
>> Anybody know if the latest version of Acoustic Modeler that comes
>> with Sound Forge works in 32 bits? The stand alone incarnation I
>> bought when they still marketed and supported it stopped at 16 bit
>> and I need 32 now.
>
>Aargh. I wasn't explicit enough. I meant whether or not it supports
>32 bit recorded and test files in its "Recover" function.
>
>
>Bob

-- Sound Forge 5, 6 and now Sony's Ver. 7 have the Acoustic Mirror and
the majority of their plug-ins (sold separately before Ver. 5)
implemented as a part of the program; Acoustic Mirror and Wave Hammer
(and I think as of Ver 7b, Vinyl Restoration) have their icons at its
toolbars. I think the Noise Reduction plug- in set is still sold
separately.

There is an option checkbox in "Options, Preferences, File" : "Use
floating point temporary files"; I think this should be it.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
 
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"Edi Zubovic" wrote:

> -- Sound Forge 5, 6 and now Sony's Ver. 7 have the Acoustic Mirror and
> the majority of their plug-ins (sold separately before Ver. 5)
> implemented as a part of the program; Acoustic Mirror and Wave Hammer
> (and I think as of Ver 7b, Vinyl Restoration) have their icons at its
> toolbars. I think the Noise Reduction plug- in set is still sold
> separately.
>
> There is an option checkbox in "Options, Preferences, File" : "Use
> floating point temporary files"; I think this should be it.
>

Found this in the help files in SF 7.0 with regard to that menu option:

"Select this check box if you want to use higher precision IEEE
floating-point temporary files for audio files. This setting results in more
accurate processing but requires more disk space and yields slower
processing.
When the check box is cleared, the bit depth of the temporary file will
match the source file."

Haven't tried it yet myself so I'm not sure what this actually does or if it
means using 32-bit when the box is checked.
 
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WWAudio wrote:
> "Edi Zubovic" wrote:
>
>
>>-- Sound Forge 5, 6 and now Sony's Ver. 7 have the Acoustic Mirror and
>>the majority of their plug-ins (sold separately before Ver. 5)
>>implemented as a part of the program; Acoustic Mirror and Wave Hammer
>>(and I think as of Ver 7b, Vinyl Restoration) have their icons at its
>>toolbars. I think the Noise Reduction plug- in set is still sold
>>separately.
>>
>>There is an option checkbox in "Options, Preferences, File" : "Use
>>floating point temporary files"; I think this should be it.
>>
>
>
> Found this in the help files in SF 7.0 with regard to that menu option:
>
> "Select this check box if you want to use higher precision IEEE
> floating-point temporary files for audio files. This setting results in more
> accurate processing but requires more disk space and yields slower
> processing.
> When the check box is cleared, the bit depth of the temporary file will
> match the source file."
>
> Haven't tried it yet myself so I'm not sure what this actually does or if it
> means using 32-bit when the box is checked.

Pretty sure that is in regard to its primary function,
convolution. It's secondary one (primary for me) is to
convert recordings of the sweep files that come with it to
the impulse response equivalent, commonly called
deconvolution. That's where I've come to need float. It
might be possible to tell from the sweep test files. If
they are still 16 bit then the sweep recordings probably
must be too and so will be the calculated IR's.

If you've got it and could check that I'd really appreciate
it.

There are other deconvolvers out there but nothing that is
remotely close to the noise immunity of Acoustic Mirror.
You've almost got to have a negative SNR to have it affect
the result. Long ago I talked to the developer of that plug
and he said that there was a "trick" used to achieve that
immunity. I've since seen the paper describing the trick
but testing shows me that no one else has incorporated it.

Maybe it's time to turn to Matlab and its C compiler to do
it myself but I just don't have the friggin time.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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Bob Cain wrote:
< ...snip... >

> > means using 32-bit when the box is checked.
>
> Pretty sure that is in regard to its primary function,
> convolution. It's secondary one (primary for me) is to
> convert recordings of the sweep files that come with it to
> the impulse response equivalent, commonly called
> deconvolution. That's where I've come to need float. It
> might be possible to tell from the sweep test files. If
> they are still 16 bit then the sweep recordings probably
> must be too and so will be the calculated IR's.

I did a test using files I'd converted to 32 bit (Sound Forge 5)
and it seemed to work just fine... [all (saved as} 32 bit results]
Don't quite know how to ckeck the conversion quality though...

> < ..snip.. >
> There are other deconvolvers out there but nothing that is
> remotely close to the noise immunity of Acoustic Mirror.
> You've almost got to have a negative SNR to have it affect
> the result. Long ago I talked to the developer of that plug
> and he said that there was a "trick" used to achieve that
> immunity. I've since seen the paper describing the trick
> but testing shows me that no one else has incorporated it.

I wrote some programs that could handle just about any test
file sweep rate but were quite a bit slower than the sound forge
algorithm; don't know what trick they used. I wrote them for
fun (and {LabVIEW} experience) only.

> Maybe it's time to turn to Matlab and its C compiler to do
> it myself but I just don't have the friggin time.
>
> Bob
> --
> As always YMMV ! ! !

Later...
Ron Capik
--
 
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"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
> Good news. As a stand alone product it was called Acoustic Modeler. Now
> to
> find the .dll or .ax for the latest. Damned if I'm going to buy all of
> Sound Forge to get an upgrade that should have been made available to
> purchasers of the stand alone plug. Sorta pissed me off that they left
> us holding the bag on that one.


A real pain Microsoft has left us Word 2 users in the lurch too ....

geoff
 
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 02:23:36 GMT, Ron Capik <r.capik@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

---------------8<-----------------
>
>I did a test using files I'd converted to 32 bit (Sound Forge 5)
>and it seemed to work just fine... [all (saved as} 32 bit results]
>Don't quite know how to ckeck the conversion quality though...

-- Sound Forge lets you change the bith depth at your will during
work; I'm usually working at 16 bits all the way; sometimes I record
and work at 24 bit. But a procedure of mine requires a temporarily set
64-bit floating depth (I3E), the maximum bit depth SF can work with.
Sound Forge always makes temp files accordting to bit depth set. If
you change this to 64-bit float, your abt. 30 MB file wil likely grow
to a couple of hundreds MBs.

I work with the temp floating point files unchecked but I will check
it. I think it might have something with SF's internal processing
precision, just like many plug-ins are "internally" working at 24, 32
and I suppose even higher bith depths to maintain quality.

>> < ..snip.. >
>> There are other deconvolvers out there but nothing that is
>> remotely close to the noise immunity of Acoustic Mirror.
>> You've almost got to have a negative SNR to have it affect
>> the result. Long ago I talked to the developer of that plug
>> and he said that there was a "trick" used to achieve that
>> immunity. I've since seen the paper describing the trick
>> but testing shows me that no one else has incorporated it.
Interesting! -- BTW, there are quite a lot 3rd-party impulse files
recorded as *.wav on the Internet. Now to use these with Acoustic
Mirror, you'd rename their extensions to *.sfi. But genuine Sonic
Foundry impulses are quite good ones; Sonic Foundry even published a
set of "Test Tones" to be used in production the acoustic impulses.
This would require a portable loudspeaker which should possibly be
omnidirectional (a hard to find thing nowadays) and a good microphone
and field recording set.
Normally to get an impulses without having to reproduce anything, one
should slam the ping-pong ball in a room or space to the hard and
neutrally sounding surface like concrete, stone etc. The first knock
and its reverberation would be yours.
I had an idea to pick up some impulses in numerous churches and old
spaces in my area; some of them are having excellent acoustics. I
would need a good mike (perhaps I might lend a Brüel & Kjaer one-inch
set with a pre and pistonphone, hmm, perhaps) and I'd need an omni
loudspeaker. Now this is harder to find. I remember Grundig of Germany
did manufacture some models of omni loudspeakers, two types of their
Audiorama spheres* and some desktop cube models. But this has been end
sixties--beginning seventhies.
--------8<------------------

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

PS. * Here a picture --
http://www.audiogold.co.uk/archive/Loudspeakers_Grundig_Audiorama_137.html

Now what a whopping price for these oldies. Hmm, given the age, and at
the price, one should surely check what's mint here and what isn't...
 
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Edi Zubovic wrote:
> Sonic Foundry even published a
> set of "Test Tones" to be used in production the acoustic impulses.
> This would require a portable loudspeaker which should possibly be
> omnidirectional (a hard to find thing nowadays) and a good microphone
> and field recording set.

This is exactly what I use it for. I'm getting the IR's of
microphone arrays but the principles are the same.

You are right about the difficulty of getting anything like
an omni sound source for hall measurement. Most use an
array of speakers mounted on the faces of a dodecaheran but
at the higher frequencies even that will have a very lumpy
polar distribution.

Impulsive sound sources are pretty omni but the intensity
needed to get a long enough tail above the ambient noise is
really big. I built an exploding wire kit to check that out
(really, really, loud) but decided I didn't trust myself to
deal with 4-6 KV on a large capacitor bank. Very, very
lethal that. I've never powered it on. :)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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Ron Capik wrote:
> Bob Cain wrote:
> < ...snip... >
>
>>>means using 32-bit when the box is checked.
>>
>>Pretty sure that is in regard to its primary function,
>>convolution. It's secondary one (primary for me) is to
>>convert recordings of the sweep files that come with it to
>>the impulse response equivalent, commonly called
>>deconvolution. That's where I've come to need float. It
>>might be possible to tell from the sweep test files. If
>>they are still 16 bit then the sweep recordings probably
>>must be too and so will be the calculated IR's.
>
>
> I did a test using files I'd converted to 32 bit (Sound Forge 5)
> and it seemed to work just fine... [all (saved as} 32 bit results]
> Don't quite know how to ckeck the conversion quality though...

Cool. You pointed its "Recover" function at a "Recorded
File" sweep that had been saved as 32 bit floating wave and
it generated a 32 bit "Impulse Output File"?


Thanks,

Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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Bob Cain wrote:

> < ...snip.. >
> >
> > I did a test using files I'd converted to 32 bit (Sound Forge 5)
> > and it seemed to work just fine... [all (saved as} 32 bit results]
> > Don't quite know how to ckeck the conversion quality though...
>
> Cool. You pointed its "Recover" function at a "Recorded
> File" sweep that had been saved as 32 bit floating wave and
> it generated a 32 bit "Impulse Output File"?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
> --

Yes, I just double checked and it did just that.

Later...

Ron capik
--
 
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 13:07:52 -0800, Bob Cain
<arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
--------------8<---------------------
>Impulsive sound sources are pretty omni but the intensity
>needed to get a long enough tail above the ambient noise is
>really big.

If I think closer, you're right on this Bob... the impulse should
possibly be loud and clear and the ambient noise could render the
convolution result if not useless then much degraded.

>I built an exploding wire kit to check that out
>(really, really, loud) but decided I didn't trust myself to
>deal with 4-6 KV on a large capacitor bank. Very, very
>lethal that. I've never powered it on. :)
--Sure it is! But sparks are making very clean impulses I think. From
time to time, one could hear the effect when there is some documentary
on TV or radio etc. dealing with (big) Van der Graaf generators; the
sound should be about the same.

Well, a similar impulse sound can be I think heard at acetylene-oxygen
gas welders when they catch a backfire. Perhaps a hydrogen-oxygen
mixture could also give clean impulse bangs as the sound is mainly due
to a chemical reaction and not as usual due to an excessive pressure
wave front.
>
>Bob


Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
 
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Edi Zubovic wrote:
>
>>I built an exploding wire kit to check that out
>>(really, really, loud) but decided I didn't trust myself to
>>deal with 4-6 KV on a large capacitor bank. Very, very
>>lethal that. I've never powered it on. :)
>
> --Sure it is! But sparks are making very clean impulses I think. From
> time to time, one could hear the effect when there is some documentary
> on TV or radio etc. dealing with (big) Van der Graaf generators; the
> sound should be about the same.

The exploding wire isn't a spark device. It just uses a
spark to trigger a gap through which numerous kilojoules of
capacitively stored energy are then dumped into a small thin
aluminum wire which explodes with enough energy to send
rather large projectiles rather long distances. A spark gap
just doesn't have the needed intensity and the output rolls
off toward the low frequencies at 6 dB/octave startibg at
several kHz. Not much LF energy in a spark at all,
certainly not enough to work with. I've been there too and
gave up.

>
> Well, a similar impulse sound can be I think heard at acetylene-oxygen
> gas welders when they catch a backfire. Perhaps a hydrogen-oxygen
> mixture could also give clean impulse bangs as the sound is mainly due
> to a chemical reaction and not as usual due to an excessive pressure
> wave front.

He he. That's another widget I've made that remains
untested. From the rubber plug/valve that comes with those
vacuum pumps for wine bottles I made a valve with an
embedded spark gap over which I can place a balloon to fill
with a torch mixture. I use one of the home oxy/mapp
torches, get the flame just right, douse it in sand and fill
the balloon with the mixture from the tip of the torch
through the plug/valve. The mixture can be easily controled
by the length of the inner, light blue cutting flame. Then
from a distance I can set it off with an electronic ignition
circuit I made for it. I've tested only that I can fill the
balloon with oxy, that the valve will hold it and that I can
get a spark inside it. I finished that little project a
couple of days before 9/11 and after that I was a bit shy
about going around setting off very loud explosions. I've
just never come back to the project but one of these days...

If I ever get back to it, it needs calibrating. To do that
I'm going to place it at the base of a big flat outside wall
with a solid ground surface extending out from it. That
will emulate a free space condition which should allow
measurement of the impulse it generates with a calibrated
mic to equalize any subsequent hall recordings. The ability
to scale the intensity repeatably by controling the
inflation size is what appeals to me about the setup.
Intensity should not be a problem. :)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:32:58 -0800, Bob Cain
<arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:

-------------8<----------------
>The exploding wire isn't a spark device. It just uses a
>spark to trigger a gap through which numerous kilojoules of
>capacitively stored energy are then dumped into a small thin
>aluminum wire which explodes with enough energy to send
>rather large projectiles rather long distances.
-------------8<--------------

--Gosh, this looks like a mid-this-century-mfkin-weapon-system. Hey,
err, I wanted to do something with modest SF Acoustic Mirror impulses,
that's too much :)))

------8<------------
>He he. That's another widget I've made that remains
>untested. From the rubber plug/valve that comes with those
>vacuum pumps for wine bottles I made a valve with an
>embedded spark gap over which I can place a balloon to fill
>with a torch mixture. I use one of the home oxy/mapp
>torches, get the flame just right, douse it in sand and fill
>the balloon with the mixture from the tip of the torch
>through the plug/valve. The mixture can be easily controled
>by the length of the inner, light blue cutting flame. Then
>from a distance I can set it off with an electronic ignition
>circuit I made for it. I've tested only that I can fill the
>balloon with oxy, that the valve will hold it and that I can
>get a spark inside it. I finished that little project a
>couple of days before 9/11 and after that I was a bit shy
>about going around setting off very loud explosions.
> I've just never come back to the project but one of these days...
>
>If I ever get back to it, it needs calibrating. To do that
>I'm going to place it at the base of a big flat outside wall
>with a solid ground surface extending out from it. That
>will emulate a free space condition which should allow
>measurement of the impulse it generates with a calibrated
>mic to equalize any subsequent hall recordings. The ability
>to scale the intensity repeatably by controling the
>inflation size is what appeals to me about the setup.
>Intensity should not be a problem. :)

OK, OK, I give up. I'll have to check the Waves IR1 Ver. 2 as they
claim you can play with convolution simulations right in front of you
at your quiet, implosion-safe, old fashioned CRT monitor :))


But all the best in experimenting!

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
 
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I bought Sound Forge 5.0 for $99 just for the Acoustic Mirror, and as Neil
said, it works in 32 bit.

I wouldn't pay for the current edition though. Besides, Samplitude has an
excellent RT convolution reverb in version 7 and it's supposed to be even
better if and when they ever get version 8 out. Acoustic Mirror isn't RT
(at least not in version 5). Maybe you have some cross-over purchase
possibilities with Samplitude? Worth looking into if you want a great audio
engine, although some of what you know in how other products work might not
help in working with it. Personally, I'm glad I had problems with Bob
Lentini's SAW products because it forced me to look at other products and
get into Samplitude. I haven't looked back.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:cq1u8h02r8o@enews3.newsguy.com...
>
>
> Neil Henderson wrote:
> > "Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
> > news:cq0mer0nhn@enews1.newsguy.com...
> >
> >>Anybody know if the latest version of Acoustic Modeler that comes
> >>with Sound Forge works in 32 bits? The stand alone incarnation I
> >>bought when they still marketed and supported it stopped at 16 bit
> >>and I need 32 now.
> >
> >
> > You mean the Acoustic Mirror, right? I don't know what the latest
version of
> > Sound Forge is, but I have v5.0, and it works in 32 bits in that
version, so
> > I would assume it does in any newer versions, as well.
>
> Good news. As a stand alone product it was called Acoustic Modeler. Now
to
> find the .dll or .ax for the latest. Damned if I'm going to buy all of
> Sound Forge to get an upgrade that should have been made available to
> purchasers of the stand alone plug. Sorta pissed me off that they left
> us holding the bag on that one.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
> --
>
> "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
>
> A. Einstein
 
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Roger W. Norman wrote:
> I bought Sound Forge 5.0 for $99 just for the Acoustic Mirror, and as Neil
> said, it works in 32 bit.

Almost. I tried it the other day and while it does do the
32 bit deconvolution correctly, it doesn't do stereo
correctly. If it's stereo, the 5.0 version just duplicates
the left channel deconvolution result onto both output IRs.
I need stereo because there's no way to stop it from
normalizing, so in a related multi-measurement situation
like mine I have to put a calibration sweep on one of the
channels. Heavy sigh.

S.F. doesn't appear to do batch processing either and
doesn't expose A.M. as a DX plug to other apps that do.

There are lots of good convolution engines out there but
precious few deconvolution apps which allow you to derive
the impulse response of a system from its response to a
stimulus. A.M. is the only one that does anything to get
ambient noise immunity and at that, it is a near miricle.


Thanks,

Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:cqg26s0sp1@enews1.newsguy.com...
>
>
> Roger W. Norman wrote:
>> I bought Sound Forge 5.0 for $99 just for the Acoustic Mirror, and as
>> Neil
>> said, it works in 32 bit.
>
> Almost. I tried it the other day and while it does do the 32 bit
> deconvolution correctly, it doesn't do stereo correctly. If it's stereo,
> the 5.0 version just duplicates the left channel deconvolution result onto
> both output IRs. I need stereo because there's no way to stop it from
> normalizing, so in a related multi-measurement situation like mine I have
> to put a calibration sweep on one of the channels. Heavy sigh.
>
> S.F. doesn't appear to do batch processing either and doesn't expose A.M.
> as a DX plug to other apps that do.

You need to get the (cunningly-named) Batch Processor app (free if you've
paid for SF)

geoff
 
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Certainly I can see AM in Samplitude as a DX plug. I haven't looked a
Nuendo yet (wonder why I have it installed) nor Audition or N-Track, but I
never use any of those anyway.

Like I said, the convolution reverb in ver 7 of Samplitude makes AM a
complete unnecessary product for me. But I liked it when I used it, and I
don't record stereo tracks to a single track setup, so using two instances
may eat lots of clocks, but I can do what I liked with it.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:cqg26s0sp1@enews1.newsguy.com...
>
>
> Roger W. Norman wrote:
> > I bought Sound Forge 5.0 for $99 just for the Acoustic Mirror, and as
Neil
> > said, it works in 32 bit.
>
> Almost. I tried it the other day and while it does do the
> 32 bit deconvolution correctly, it doesn't do stereo
> correctly. If it's stereo, the 5.0 version just duplicates
> the left channel deconvolution result onto both output IRs.
> I need stereo because there's no way to stop it from
> normalizing, so in a related multi-measurement situation
> like mine I have to put a calibration sweep on one of the
> channels. Heavy sigh.
>
> S.F. doesn't appear to do batch processing either and
> doesn't expose A.M. as a DX plug to other apps that do.
>
> There are lots of good convolution engines out there but
> precious few deconvolution apps which allow you to derive
> the impulse response of a system from its response to a
> stimulus. A.M. is the only one that does anything to get
> ambient noise immunity and at that, it is a near miricle.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
> --
>
> "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
> simpler."
>
> A. Einstein
 
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