Sound solutions for a multimedia system

[Squidmaster]

Well, I'm glad we're going over all of this. It may be overly complex and it may not, but it's an interesting and informative conversation regardless. The real kicker for me is getting a sense of the relative values of different options. For instance, how much better is a system going to sound with my Bose speakers, the SR304 receiver, and a sub like the one recommended compared to, say, the computer speakers I threw into the mix? Is it a 20% difference? 50? Is it a matter of what works on one not working on the other?

I wonder the same about sound cards. What is the functional sound difference between an old and new card? I know these are subjective questions, but if you could give it a shot I'd appreciate it. Maybe you could describe a situation whereby the old card would fail and the new one would succeed or something like that.

 

[KingLoftusXII]

A separate receiver, sub, and speakers are going to sound better than a sound card and computer speakers, for sure.

As for the sound card issue, when I upgraded from my old Soundblaster Live! to an Audigy 2 a couple years ago, I did notice a sizable difference, especially in the area of subtle surround sounds when gaming. It was enough to make me upgrade my speakers as well.

 

[g-paw]

Agree with KingLoftusXII about the receiver, the SR303 would meet your immediate needs so would go with the 10" sub, which would come to $400 leaving $1300. After paying $300 for the monitor it leaves you $1000 for the computer given a $1700 budget.

You're really dealing with 2 sets of questions, which are really separate but will impact the answer to the other. First is upgrading you audio system. Will the receiver and sub significantly enhance the quality of the music you listen to? Yes. Is there any way to quantify this enhancement? No What is the cost of enhancing your audio? You'll have $400 less for the computer. Is the cost worth it? Only you can answer that. Can you build a good system for $1000? I would say yes. Is it a system you would want? You have to answer that.

I'd suggest you do the following. Ideally, go to Circuitcity with a CD you think will be good to test the system by listening to it. It's not likely they'll have your exact speakers but listen a set of Bose that come as close as possible to yours, both spec and price wise. Decide if you think the sound quality is worth $400. If there is no Circuitcity, go to a Bestbuy or audio store and listen to a system that would be equivalently priced to what you're getting. If you want to buy the audio upgrades, then build a $1000 computer, keep in mind $300 is already gone on the monitor.

I can appreciate you dilemma. I'm looking at getting a new car and have narrowed it down to a Mazda Speed3 or the new Accord Coupe. The Speed3 has tremendous performance as well as better carrying capacity for the money, the Accord is a more comfortable, refined car with a really good sound system. Which will I get? Don't know but would love someone to make the choice for me. Sooner or later I'll have to bite the bullet and decide. The sooner I do, the sooner I can quit agonizing over it and start to enjoy what ever I end up with.

 

[KingLoftusXII]

Go with the Accord.

Since he's in a small space, a $300 sub is probably overkill.
http/www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Polk-10-Subwoofer-PSW10/sem/rpsm/oid/93010/catOid/-16922/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
While low-end Polk stuff is not the best, I would think this would be more than good enough for a small area and would embarrass any sub coming with a computer speaker set.

 

[g-paw]

Go with the Accord.

Since he's in a small space, a $300 sub is probably overkill.
http/www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Polk-10-Subwoofer-PSW10/sem/rpsm/oid/93010/catOid/-16922/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
While low-end Polk stuff is not the best, I would think this would be more than good enough for a small area and would embarrass any sub coming with a computer speaker set.

The reason I think the 10" Velodyne would be worth the money is that he will likely not think about upgrading the sub for 15 plus years and it would easily handle a 30' X 30' room unless he wanted to use it as a vibrator as well, which my idiot stepson is doing with this sub. He has it next to the couch and cranked to about twice the volume he needs to. Sounds like one of those idiots that you can hear the thumping 3 cars away with the windows up. I just see a sub as a component you're just going to have to replace. The sub I have for my surround sound system is 15 years and planning on using it until it dies. I don't know the OP's situation but I'm guessing he'll eventually be moving into a bigger place eventually

 

[Squidmaster]

It's extremely hard to guess where I will be within any number of years. I'm disabled and in a little place next to my parents' so I can have some independence without having to use more energy than I have on surviving... If a treatment suddenly works for me I could wind up anywhere. If not, I may be here for many years. There is no knowing really on that front.

So my understanding is that if I want to use my computer and the TV at the same time I need to let the speakers play both simultaneously. Is there no way to use the built-in TV sound when the speakers are being used for another device? I use the TV often with my computer. If I can't arrive at a convenient solution for using both, that would be a deal-breaker given the circumstances.

 

[g-paw]

It's extremely hard to guess where I will be within any number of years. I'm disabled and in a little place next to my parents' so I can have some independence without having to use more energy than I have on surviving... If a treatment suddenly works for me I could wind up anywhere. If not, I may be here for many years. There is no knowing really on that front.

So my understanding is that if I want to use my computer and the TV at the same time I need to let the speakers play both simultaneously. Is there no way to use the built-in TV sound when the speakers are being used for another device? I use the TV often with my computer. If I can't arrive at a convenient solution for using both, that would be a deal-breaker given the circumstances.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. You can listen to both the TV and the computer or any other audio component at the same time, you'll be using the TV speakers for the TV and the audio system speakers for the computer. If you want to try the set up we've been discussing, do the following. Connect the TV to the receiver, the receiver probably has a connection for TV or video. Then get a Groundloop Isolator, will prevent any static from the computer and is $17 at Radioshack, and a Y converter $3 at Cyberguys,. Plug the Y converter into you sound card and the other end into the groundloop isolator and then plug the groundloop isolator into the receiver. Looks like you can hookup to 4 components on that receiver. $20 unless you need a longer cable to connect the computer to the groundloop isolator. See how you like the set up. If you like it, then test the sub/receiver. If you get the receiver and say the Bluegeara sound card I suggested, you'd want to connect the computer to the receiver using the optical connection in which case you won't need the graoundloop isolatorBest, using the optical connection means you're going digital to digital, otherwise you're going analogue to analogue. The best scenario would be to test them at your place but most places have a 15% restocking fee but you might be able to negotiate that. Of course if you buy it online, you'd have shipping charges so if you're doing this, best to buy locally. Otherwise, like I said before, you could always go out to the store. I think KingLoftusXII and I would agree you'll like the enhanced audio quality but ultimately you have to decide. As for which sub, the Polk KingLoftusXII suggested would work in a small room although my preference would be the Veoldyne, I think it would given you cleaner sound but either would be a significant improvement. Physically they look to be the same size but you can put a sub anywhere in the room, usually it's recommended it go in a corner but if that doesn't work, really not a big deal, especially in a smaller room. If space is a real issue, you could always put it in a closet and just open the door when you want to use it.

http/www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062214&cp=&sr=1&origkw=ground+loop&kw=ground+loop&parentPage=search
http/www.cyberguys.com/templates/SearchDetail.asp?productID=4730

 

[rexter]

"I am looking to play mostly classical vocal music."

I'm like you, I have a big system in my basement but don't use them most of the time. I use my mini system for relaxing.

If you can find a Nakamichi dealer take you best CD and try lestening to one of their system. But the price will make you gasping for air.

 

[Squidmaster]

I had a friend over the other day with more experience with sound, and he thought it would actually be a piece of cake to connect surround sound here. It seems I had completely overlooked the drop ceiling, and didn't know how surround was configured. I also didn't consider the option of mounting speakers on the walls themselves. Now I'm going to see if I can find out a bit more about it. If I can set up multiple configurations for different spots in the room on the same system, I may very well change gears here.

I still don't really follow how the TV would use its own sound but also go through the receiver. Wouldn't one cancel out the other?

 

[g-paw]

The TV has its own amplifier and speakers this is why you don't need a receiver to play it, just turn it on and you have sound. Most TV's today also have audio out jacks, the red and white RCA jacks, which allows you to connect the TV to a receiver. Depending on the TV one of the TV set ups is to use both the TV onboard sound and the receiver at the same time if the receiver is set to play the TV. If you just want to use the onboard sound, then set the receiver to a different component. If you just want to use the receiver when watching TV and not the onboard sound, you can just turn the TV sound down to O, so low you can't hear it. Depending on the TV there may be other ways to hook the TV to the receiver. You'll have to check the manual that came with the TV to see what your options are. Again, the TV is just one more source for your receiver and if the receiver is set to a different component, it will play that component but the onboard TV sound will still work. If you don't have the TV manual and post the make and model, we might be able to find it on line.

I think most people would agree the that the most important component for determining quality of sound are the speakers, this is what you hear, and as KingLoftusXII said, the better the speakers, the more expensive they are, which doesn't mean you need a pair of $10,000 speakers for a system to sound good. I think the 303 Onkyo and 10" Velodyne would be a good place to start. Given you want to built a good medium price computer as well, you might be better off using your Bose for now. Then when you have the money, say $500 to $600, look at buying the surround speakers. If you decide on buying the entire surround system, then build a computer for around $600, probably best to go with AMD at that price point and upgrade it as money permits, e.g., upgrade the monitor, sound card, and CPU down the road. Again, both audio systems and computers are easily upgradeable if you start with the right components. I would guess for most of us with pretty good audio systems it has taken us years to build them up.

 

[Squidmaster]

You make good points all around. Here are the specs for my TV: http://www.maxentusa.com/_coreModules/eShopping/productDetail.aspx?productMasterID=15

My understanding is that routing the sound through the TV would reduce it in quality by a ton as opposed to connecting from the cable box to the receiver. In addition, won't the TV's sound controls apply if I have the TV connected to the receiver, and hit mute or any volume control? This is my concern.

 

[g-paw]

You make good points all around. Here are the specs for my TV: http://www.maxentusa.com/_coreModules/eShopping/productDetail.aspx?productMasterID=15

My understanding is that routing the sound through the TV would reduce it in quality by a ton as opposed to connecting from the cable box to the receiver. In addition, won't the TV's sound controls apply if I have the TV connected to the receiver, and hit mute or any volume control? This is my concern.

No problem connecting the TV to the receiver, it has 2 sets of RCA connectors. The sound from the cable box would be better especially if you can use an optical connection but then you'd have to also connect your DVD player and VCR to the receiver. If you run the audio from the TV, you won't have to worry about connectiing the DVD player and/or VCR to the receiver. I've done it both ways and it's a pain to have to set everything to the receiver. I really care a lot more about music than TV and movies so if the TV sound isn't all it could be I can live with that for ease of use, especially given my wife watch a lot of TVs and if it involves more than one 2 buttoms she's calling me to set it up. The surround sound is in our family room and I have a 2nd sound system in the basement with my computer and this is where I listen to music. Finally, you're best off connecting using optical (digital) connections rather than analogue when you can. The problem is I think the 303 only has one optical connection while the 505 has 2. Likely your cable box, DVD player, and sound card, at least if you get a good one, will have optical connections so even with the 505 you'll only be able to connect 2 of the 3. If it were me, I'd do the computer if I had one, the DVD if I had 2 connections but again for me music always takes precedent when there are trade offs. To get 3 connections on a receiver you're looking at a lot more money.

Found this on page p48 of the TV manual, page 18 tells you how to connect the TV to a receiver.

A small display window appears upon selecting the
option to change. Use to change the setting.
When set to VARIABLE, audio output is affected by
the monitor’s internal audio controls. When set to
FIXED, the audio output bypasses the monitor’s
internal audio controls. After achieving desired
setting, press key to confirm setting and return
to previous menu.

It sounds like if you set it to variable, you'd be able to mute or turn the volume all the way down and still use the receiver although it could be the opposite. Any way one way or another you should be able to use both the TV audio and the receiver.

 

[Squidmaster]

Hmmm... if it bypasses the internal audio controls, would that mean that I wouldn't lose signal quality? It sounds that way, but I'm not sure.

I plan to use my computer as my DVD and music player already, so that would leave me with just 2 connections that I would need, namely, the computer and the TV (or cable box). I may be able to track down where this TV came from and see if the store knows the specifics for which setting I'd use for which purpose.

What is it about computer speakers that makes them specifically computer speakers, anyway? If they are optimized for computer use, maybe it is worth considering them since I'm using the computer for 3 of my 4 primary uses anyway. If not, I'm going to keep pursuing this other idea for a while. I do have some time to investigate, so that's a plus.

 

[g-paw]

As for using the Variable or Fixed settings, if you can't get an answer from the TV mfg, it's easy enough to try one and then the other given it looks like you use the remote to fix the settings. I've had stereo systems for 40 years, I was an audio system protege , and I still have to do a trial and error for some connections, especially with the new surround receivers. I suppose you could also google these settings and get an answer.

Basically speakers create sound by pushing air and if I remember correctly there are 2 basic designs, one electrical and the other using air in an enclosed space, don't remember what the latter is called. The former is more efficient, i.e., you don't need as much power to driver them, but that doesn't mean they necessarily sound better. Given today's receivers and the speakers in your price range efficiency is not a major issue. Using a receiver means you have more power, e.g., the 303s produce 65w per channel, vs the power produce by the audio card to drive computer speakers, this varies but checking the specs should tell you. In addition, the speakers are larger than computer speakers and can push more air. Very good, more expensive computer speakers can sound better than really cheap system speakers but better quality system speakers will always sound better. I would guess your Bose would sound better than reasonably price computer speakers. But keep in mind if you go with the receiver, you can always upgrade the speakers in the future, which will definitely give you better quality sound. Upgrading would be speakers starting at $500 to $600 to $1000. The above explanation of how speakers work is very simplistic, I'm not an audio engineer and it's been years since I've looked at buying audio equipment given I'm very satisfied with my current set up, although I do plan on getting a new receiver once we move into another house in a year or so and will start doing research when I'm closer to buying. The receiver also affects sound quality but again an entry level Onkyo, Yamaha, or Denon receiver would be an improvement over what you have now. Keep in mind it's not hard to put together a ten, 20, or 30 thousand dollar audio system so we're talking very entry level, which doesn't mean it won't sound good. Kind of the difference between a Porche 911 Turbo and a Miata, they're both sports cars and both can be fun to drive but there is obviously going to be a significant difference in performance. But if you want a sports car it would be foolish not get one because you can't drop $90,000 for a Porche.