Stereo recording a choir in a circle ?

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I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a church.
Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)
I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.
Regards,
Dimitrios
 
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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:52:37 +0300, Dimitrios
<musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote:

>I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
>a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a church.
>Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
>and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
>Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)
>I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.
>Regards,
>Dimitrios

A pair of crossed figure 8s in the middle is your best bet. The
displayed sound field won't be circular, obviously, but they all get
equal billing.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
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In article <qenri0hnpjlkr1mpegfapl7cjnlmdikqd5@4ax.com>,
Don Pearce <donald@pearce.uk.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:52:37 +0300, Dimitrios
><musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
>>I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
>>a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a church.
>>Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
>>and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
>>Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)
>>I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.
>>Regards,
>>Dimitrios
>
>A pair of crossed figure 8s in the middle is your best bet. The
>displayed sound field won't be circular, obviously, but they all get
>equal billing.

If you do this, you'll have to make fairly narrow crescents on either
side of the mike rather than a circle, because the angle of acceptance
is pretty narrow. You don't want folks falling off the end of the stereo
field.

You might have better luck with a pair of omnis with a baffle, but
even so you will probably have to have some empty sections at 3:00 and 9:00
in order to keep folks from falling off the end.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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Thanks,
I don't have though any figure 8 mics.
I have two matched pairs of cardiods MC012 (modified)
1 matched pair of cardiod/omni Gefell MV-652 with M93 (cardiods) and M94
(omnis) heads
1 omni MC012 mic

Regards,
Dimitrios


Don Pearce wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:52:37 +0300, Dimitrios
> <musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
>
>>I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
>>a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a church.
>>Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
>>and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
>>Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)
>>I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.
>>Regards,
>>Dimitrios
>
>
> A pair of crossed figure 8s in the middle is your best bet. The
> displayed sound field won't be circular, obviously, but they all get
> equal billing.
>
> d
>
> Pearce Consulting
> http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:22:32 +0300, Dimitrios
<musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote:

>Thanks,
>I don't have though any figure 8 mics.
>I have two matched pairs of cardiods MC012 (modified)
>1 matched pair of cardiod/omni Gefell MV-652 with M93 (cardiods) and M94
>(omnis) heads
>1 omni MC012 mic
>
>Regards,
>Dimitrios
>
Use your Gefells in omni. Put them close to floor level facing
straight up, about one third and two thirds the way across the circle.
If the floor is hard, surround them with cushions to absorb
reflections that would otherwise cause comb filtering.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
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Use your M94 omni's spaced about 8 inches and pointed at the ceiling about 8
ft up as a starting point.... if you want more of an image put a 12 inch
Jecklin disk between them...

Rgds:
Eric

"Dimitrios" <musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:412DE418.2090708@otenet.gr...
> Thanks,
> I don't have though any figure 8 mics.
> I have two matched pairs of cardiods MC012 (modified)
> 1 matched pair of cardiod/omni Gefell MV-652 with M93 (cardiods) and M94
> (omnis) heads
> 1 omni MC012 mic
>
> Regards,
> Dimitrios
>
>
> Don Pearce wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:52:37 +0300, Dimitrios
> > <musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
> >>a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a
church.
> >>Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
> >>and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
> >>Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)
> >>I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.
> >>Regards,
> >>Dimitrios
> >
> >
> > A pair of crossed figure 8s in the middle is your best bet. The
> > displayed sound field won't be circular, obviously, but they all get
> > equal billing.
> >
> > d
> >
> > Pearce Consulting
> > http://www.pearce.uk.com
>
>
 
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Can I ask a stupid question?

Do the performers have to be in a circle?
 
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"Dimitrios" <musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:cgkm6u$jec$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
> I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
> a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a
church.
> Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
> and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
> Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)
> I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.

XY pair of small-diaphragm condensers, in the centet of the citcle, about 4'
off the ground, pointing up. You should, if possible, put a rug under them
to cut down floor bounce.

Peace,
Paul
 
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In article <cgkm6u$jec$1@usenet.otenet.gr> musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr writes:

> I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
> a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a church.
> Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
> and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.

> I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.

With two mics:

Record the church, not the singers. Put your mics in a stereo
configuration, outside the circle, and far enough back so that you get
a good balanced of the voices but no so far back that it's too
reverberant and you can't understand words.

Another possibility is put one mic in your pocket and put the
other one in the center of the circle (omni, of course). Record in
mono to two channels. Don't tell anyone it's not stereo.

A third possibility is to get a third mic, an omni, and place it as
above (inside the circle). Then put the two cardioids in your favorite
stereo configuration well back in the church and use it as a stereo
reverb.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
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"William Sommerwerck" wrote ...
> Can I ask a stupid question?
>
> Do the performers have to be in a circle?

The original posting said...
"Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,"
 
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Dimitrios <musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote:

>I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
>a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a church.
>Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
>and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
>Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)
>I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.

Use a pair of DPA 4003 or 4006 with the nosecones (or other really good
omnis that are as close to being true omnis as the DPA with nosecone).
Face them upwards and mount them on a Jecklin Disk centered in the
circle.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
 
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>> Can I ask a stupid question?

>> Do the performers have to be in a circle?

> The original posting said...
> "Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,"

He might not be able to, but somebody else might. He could simply say to
"whomever" -- "It's not practical to make a good recording when they're standing
in a circle."
 
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An omni and a bidirectional mic on axis, i.e., and M-S setup. Then you
can add as much stereo imaging as you like. I have used this with a
big band set up in almost a circle. Separated the sections nicely.

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:52:37 +0300, Dimitrios
<musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote:

>I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
>a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a church.
>Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
>and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
>Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)
>I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.
>Regards,
>Dimitrios
>

Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org
 
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in article RvoXc.252658$OB3.222860@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, Paul
Stamler at pstamlerhell@pobox.com wrote on 8/26/04 12:48 PM:

> "Dimitrios" <musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote in message
> news:cgkm6u$jec$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
>> I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
>> a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a
> church.
>> Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
>> and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
>> Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)
>> I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.
>
> XY pair of small-diaphragm condensers, in the centet of the citcle, about 4'
> off the ground, pointing up. You should, if possible, put a rug under them
> to cut down floor bounce.


agree on the rug under.

A) I'd start with an omni MS pair at whatever height.
Aim the Bi in whatever direction the space does stereo best

B) otherwise a pair of omni's
at whatever separation and elevation sounds good in the space.

C) a pair of real PZM's on the floor
 
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Dimitrios wrote:

> I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
> a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a church.
> Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
> and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
> Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)

Two cardioids pointed 180 degrees apart, near the floor pointing up
at the singers, and sitting on a rotating platform, with a remote
control that lets you control the speed of rotation.

Listen to the recording with headphones and dramamine.

- Logan
 
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Dear Don,
Using the Geffels "about one third and two thirds the way across the
circle" can you please explain this further or draw it simply if it is
easy ?
Thank you.
Dimitrios

Don Pearce wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:22:32 +0300, Dimitrios
> <musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
>
>>Thanks,
>>I don't have though any figure 8 mics.
>>I have two matched pairs of cardiods MC012 (modified)
>>1 matched pair of cardiod/omni Gefell MV-652 with M93 (cardiods) and M94
>>(omnis) heads
>>1 omni MC012 mic
>>
>>Regards,
>>Dimitrios
>>
>
> Use your Gefells in omni. Put them close to floor level facing
> straight up, about one third and two thirds the way across the circle.
> If the floor is hard, surround them with cushions to absorb
> reflections that would otherwise cause comb filtering.
>
> d
>
> Pearce Consulting
> http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
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Dear Scott,
What is omnis with a buffle ?
How are the omnis configured ?
XY, apart ?
What if I use three omnis as most of you say from floor level 10 o'clock
2 o'clock and 6 o'clock ?
Regards,
Dimitrios

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> In article <qenri0hnpjlkr1mpegfapl7cjnlmdikqd5@4ax.com>,
> Don Pearce <donald@pearce.uk.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:52:37 +0300, Dimitrios
>><musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I wonder how would you use your mics to record a stereo reproduction of
>>>a choir of around 10-15 people gathered around in a circle inside a church.
>>>Note that I cannot change the way they are standing,
>>>and the mics should be positioned inside the circle.
>>>Circle is small enouph (8-10feet diameter)
>>>I would prefer a maximum of three condenser mics used.
>>>Regards,
>>>Dimitrios
>>
>>A pair of crossed figure 8s in the middle is your best bet. The
>>displayed sound field won't be circular, obviously, but they all get
>>equal billing.
>
>
> If you do this, you'll have to make fairly narrow crescents on either
> side of the mike rather than a circle, because the angle of acceptance
> is pretty narrow. You don't want folks falling off the end of the stereo
> field.
>
> You might have better luck with a pair of omnis with a baffle, but
> even so you will probably have to have some empty sections at 3:00 and 9:00
> in order to keep folks from falling off the end.
> --scott
 
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Dimitrios <musurgioNOSPaM@otenet.gr> wrote:
>Dear Scott,
>What is omnis with a buffle ?
>How are the omnis configured ?
>XY, apart ?

It doesn't matter where you point them for the most part, if they are omni.
Check out the description of the Jecklin disc on http://www.josephson.com.
The Thiele thing and the Schoeps sphere are other baffled omni systems.

>What if I use three omnis as most of you say from floor level 10 o'clock
>2 o'clock and 6 o'clock ?

Now you gotta mix three widely spaced microphones. No fun.
--scott


--
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The "Swedien Method" was a pair of neumann omnis in a coincident array (Like
Blumlein).
the particular microphones (M50's? ) aren't all that omni ay higher
frequencies. The choir was in a circle.

One could try a set of LDC microphones set to omni as an experiment and see how
this comes out.

I recorded a choir of shaped note singers in a circle using a moderately spaced
pair of 414's in omni and the results weren't bad at all. Today, I would
probably use a Jecklin disc.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty
 
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rickpv8945@aol.com (Richard Kuschel) wrote in message news:<20040827123432.25600.00004780@mb-m29.aol.com>...
> The "Swedien Method" was a pair of neumann omnis in a coincident array (Like
> Blumlein).
> the particular microphones (M50's? ) aren't all that omni ay higher
> frequencies. The choir was in a circle.

He was using a pair of M49s set to omni. VERY different than the M50.
The M49 is a LD, dual-diaphragm condenser, and when set to omni, has
two "on-axis" sides, with a slight dip in the HF response
perpendicular to the direct axis. Thus, in a way, his system is omni
in the lows, and stereo in the highs, and the pattern would extend all
the way around the two mics. The only difference between this and the
classic Blumlein setup is that here, the rear lobes are not out of
phase from the front.

The M50 is omni only, and has only one "on-axis" direction, directly
to the front of the diaphragm. A pair of these crossed at 90 degrees
might yield a similar response to the above setup, but only to the
"front" of the two mics, not to the rear. I.e. you would have highs to
the front side of the array only.
>
> One could try a set of LDC microphones set to omni as an experiment and see how
> this comes out.

Yes, exactly!
>
> I recorded a choir of shaped note singers in a circle using a moderately spaced
> pair of 414's in omni and the results weren't bad at all. Today, I would
> probably use a Jecklin disc.

But as mentioned earlier in the thread, wouldn't that cause a null
spot (or two?) considering the circular arrangement of the group?

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com
 
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