Studer 169 preamp

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Hi, I will be recording a symphony orchestra w/ the program of
symphonies by Beethovwn and Mahler. The orchestra has a Studer 169
mixing console. I now have the choice of using the micpre on the
Studer or bring my own (Millennia Media. And I will be using Neumann
KM83, 86 and KM130). What would your opinion be? Are the micpre on the
Studer Class A, quiet enough (The console was built years ago), Give
me an idea how they compare to the Millennia. Thanks!

Eric Chang

 

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cvsound <cvrecordingservices@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Hi, I will be recording a symphony orchestra w/ the program of
>symphonies by Beethovwn and Mahler. The orchestra has a Studer 169
>mixing console. I now have the choice of using the micpre on the
>Studer or bring my own (Millennia Media. And I will be using Neumann
>KM83, 86 and KM130). What would your opinion be? Are the micpre on the
>Studer Class A, quiet enough (The console was built years ago), Give
>me an idea how they compare to the Millennia. Thanks!

The console is just brimming over with nasty 301 op-amps. Studer did
a pretty brilliant job of making it sound as good as possible given the
technology they had to work with and the size limitations, but it's not
a Millennia Media by any stretch of the imagination.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

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"cvsound" <cvrecordingservices@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:35de14cf.0409131810.7f7b5595@posting.google.com...
> Hi, I will be recording a symphony orchestra w/ the program of
> symphonies by Beethovwn and Mahler. The orchestra has a Studer 169
> mixing console. I now have the choice of using the micpre on the
> Studer or bring my own (Millennia Media. And I will be using Neumann
> KM83, 86 and KM130). What would your opinion be? Are the micpre on the
> Studer Class A, quiet enough (The console was built years ago), Give
> me an idea how they compare to the Millennia. Thanks!

Use the Millennia. You won't be sorry. Studers of that vintage were better'n
some, but nowhere near what a Millennia can do.

Peace,
Paul

 

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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:20:46 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>
>"Scott Dorsey"

>> The console is just brimming over with nasty 301 op-amps.

> Or is it that you merely have an aversion to LM 301s ?

They have a crossover distortion that is both clearly audible and
visible on a 'scope. You can trick them into running a higher bias
current through their class B output stage, but then their dissipation
goes up and their input offsets start to drift.

Their low slew rate causes HF distortion if they are used as output
drivers.

They won't win any prizes for low noise, either.

If you had ever worked with them yourself, you would either agree with
"nasty" or be deaf. Fortunately, they are no longer used for audio.

Phil, I'll be disappointed if you don't come back with an answer that
is obscene, rude, and wrong. Get on it, boy! You have a reputation to
uphold.

Mike T.

 

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I find the Studer 169 pres a bit dark, not very fast to say the least; more
of a rock thing but you might like their soft tone. Noise floor isn't
spectacular but is not bad either. If the console has never been re-capped,
expect some serious problems here an there.

JP

"cvsound" <cvrecordingservices@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:35de14cf.0409131810.7f7b5595@posting.google.com...
> Hi, I will be recording a symphony orchestra w/ the program of
> symphonies by Beethovwn and Mahler. The orchestra has a Studer 169
> mixing console. I now have the choice of using the micpre on the
> Studer or bring my own (Millennia Media. And I will be using Neumann
> KM83, 86 and KM130). What would your opinion be? Are the micpre on the
> Studer Class A, quiet enough (The console was built years ago), Give
> me an idea how they compare to the Millennia. Thanks!
>
> Eric Chang

 

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Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey"
>
>>
>> The console is just brimming over with nasty 301 op-amps.
>
>
> " .... and I have noticed that you seem
>very reluctant to give actual proof of anything at all. "
>
>
> ** How about you prove of the "nasty" bit ???
>
> Or is it that you merely have an aversion to LM 301s ?

The 301 is not exactly the most linear or stable thing around. Ever looked
at the distortion plot on one of them? The 301 is only a small step up from
the 741, and is one of the devices that originally gave op-amps such a bad
reputation for sound quality.

The Studer folks, though, deserve a huge amount of congratulations for taking
something as bad as the 301 and making a console that really sounds quite
good. They are very careful to keep gains on each stage pretty low, and they
use discrete front-ends on just about everything as well as discrete output
drive stages. And they use some discrete amps on the buss driver as well in
order to get a lot more current than the 301 will provide. No gyrators in the
EQ, since that would be utter murder with a 301.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

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"Mike T."
"Phil Allison"
> >
> >"Scott Dorsey"

> >> The console is just brimming over with nasty 301 op-amps.

** Replacing the snipped bit:

> > ** How about you prove of the "nasty" bit ???

> > Or is it that you merely have an aversion to LM 301s ?
>
> They have a crossover distortion that is both clearly audible and
> visible on a 'scope.


** Big lie - I asked for proof not idiot assertions.


>
> Their low slew rate causes HF distortion if they are used as output
> drivers.
>

** More lies - the SR is up to 10 V/uS


> They won't win any prizes for low noise, either.


** Similar to a TL071.


> If you had ever worked with them yourself,


** Certainly have - since 1971.


> you would either agree with
> "nasty" or be deaf.


** Typical asinine comment from an ass.


> Fortunately, they are no longer used for audio.
>

** Nonsense.


> Phil, I'll be disappointed if you don't come back with an answer that
> is obscene, rude, and wrong.


** So I should write one just like yours ??




............ Phil

 

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"Scott Dorsey"
> Phil Allison <
> > >> The console is just brimming over with nasty 301 op-amps.
> >
> > " .... and I have noticed that you seem
> >very reluctant to give actual proof of anything at all. "
> >
> >
> > ** How about you prove of the "nasty" bit ???
> >
> > Or is it that you merely have an aversion to LM 301s ?
>
> The 301 is not exactly the most linear or stable thing around.


** The word was "nasty".


> Ever looked at the distortion plot on one of them?


** Quote: " .... and I have noticed that you seem
very reluctant to give actual proof of anything at all. "

How about you provide some figures to back your claim up ?

I already know how 301s perform.


> The 301 is only a small step up from the 741,


** Is that like saying blacks are only a small step up from apes ?


> and is one of the devices that originally gave op-amps such a bad
> reputation for sound quality.


** Quote: " .... and I have noticed that you seem
very reluctant to give actual proof of anything at all. "

I can see I am talking with an op- amp racist here.


>
> The Studer folks, though, deserve a huge amount of congratulations for
taking
> something as bad as the 301


** Is that like saying it is amazing what some blacks have done ?



.............. Phil

 

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Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey"
>>
>> The 301 is not exactly the most linear or stable thing around.
>
> ** The word was "nasty".

Yes, nasty. Look at the LM301 data sheet. Look at the crossover distortion
numbers. Nasty. Look at the Bode plot. Nasty.

> ** Quote: " .... and I have noticed that you seem
>very reluctant to give actual proof of anything at all. "
>
> How about you provide some figures to back your claim up ?

Motorola Linear Devices Databook DL-128, page 2-47. You'll note that the
chip is not even specified for Ft or slew rate and there isn't even any
distortion figure on the data sheet. But you can see one of the worst
open-loop response plots you'll ever seen on an op-amp and some pulse
response plots that will make you laugh.

Much like the 741, the reason the dynamic numbers aren't on the data sheet
is because they aren't intended for use in applications where they are
important. If you measure the Ft, you'll find it actually varies a lot
from unit to unit, with most of them being a little bit above 500 KHz,
at least according to Leach in the JAES.

>** Quote: " .... and I have noticed that you seem
> very reluctant to give actual proof of anything at all. "
>
> I can see I am talking with an op- amp racist here.

Well, how do you want me to put a residual scalar value on nastiness? I
mean, you won't even accept TIMD numbers as being useful, so what sort of
values do you want to define nastiness with. I'd say anything that has a
crossover error that is visible by eye on a scope with a 1 KHz sine wave
at 0.05V in with a gain of 100 is nasty. Give me an address and I will
mail you some polaroids off the Tektronix.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

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Scott,

You're justly famous for your even-handed generosity and good spirits
with newcomers to the group. I actually hope to learn a real life
lesson from your manner in handling this negative vibe.

I'm possibly/ probably older than you, but haven't learned it yet.
Thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck
" ** this NG is chock full of metal midgets"

 

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Scott Dorsey wrote:

> pulse response plots that will make you laugh.

He hasn't pulse, only response and he doesn't laugh. I do say, though,
that if I had your patinece I'd be a surgeon.

--
ha

 

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On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 03:59:20 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
wrote:

>> pulse response plots that will make you laugh.
>
>He hasn't pulse, only response and he doesn't laugh. I do say, though,
>that if I had your patinece I'd be a surgeon.

I really do think Ty's right. AI's walk among us.

Or is it "amongst us"?

Chris Hornbeck
" ** this NG is chock full of metal midgets"

 

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I wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:

> > pulse response plots that will make you laugh.

> He hasn't pulse, only response and he doesn't laugh. I do say, though,
> that if I had your patinece I'd be a surgeon.

Who knows, maybe I did mean "patinece" instead of patience.

--
hank alrich * secret__mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

 

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"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1gk4fl8.pn9uhp1pxqv6pN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> > pulse response plots that will make you laugh.
>
> He hasn't pulse, only response and he doesn't laugh. I do say, though,
> that if I had your patinece I'd be a surgeon.

Patience? Surgeon? Don't you know the medical classification system:

An internist knows everything and does nothing.

A surgeon knows nothing and does everything.

A pathologist knows everything and does everything, but too late.

Peace,
Paul

 

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Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> Strange that specs for famous items using the LM 301 are so good.

Name some.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

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"Chris Hornbeck"

> Scott,
>
> You're justly famous for your even-handed generosity and good spirits
> with newcomers to the group.


** Scott Dorsey is infamous for horribly misleading people and posting
massive lies.

He is such a fool he believes his own lies.



> I actually hope to learn a real life
> lesson from your manner in handling this negative vibe.


** OTOH - Mr Hornbeck is living on some far away planet inhabited by
fairies and goblins.


>
> I'm possibly/ probably older than you, but haven't learned it yet.


** Brain defects do prevent learning.





.......... Phil

 

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Scott Dorsey is famous for giving people polite, correct and often
in-depth information in rec.audio.pro and elsewhere.

Phoney Phil, on the other hand, is someone whose "abuse" addy we should
get at and deluge with copies of his abusive posts here. Clearly he
hasn't a life worth living so he might as well try his luck elsewhere.

If Phil had a brain and Internet access he'd be able to learn in a few
seconds what Scott does for a living. No wonder Phil can't figure it
out.

--
ha

 

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walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich) wrote in message news:<1gk4fvm.1e7gez11wut15jN%walkinay@thegrid.net>...
> Scott Dorsey is famous for giving people polite, correct and often
> in-depth information in rec.audio.pro and elsewhere.
>
> Phoney Phil, on the other hand, is someone whose "abuse" addy we should
> get at and deluge with copies of his abusive posts here. Clearly he
> hasn't a life worth living so he might as well try his luck elsewhere.
>
> If Phil had a brain and Internet access he'd be able to learn in a few
> seconds what Scott does for a living. No wonder Phil can't figure it
> out.

Too bad Phil's abusive BS is met with such fanning. The only way to
piss the fire out is to ignore him completely. Something I
(fortunately) find extremely easy to do.

 

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"hank alrich"
>
> Scott Dorsey is famous for giving people polite, correct and often
> in-depth information in rec.audio.pro and elsewhere.
>

** No possible way for a mindless, abuse posting moron like Hank to tell.


> Phoney Phil, on the other hand, is someone whose "abuse" addy we should
> get at and deluge with copies of his abusive posts here. Clearly he
> hasn't a life worth living so he might as well try his luck elsewhere.


** What NG Nazi.


>
> If Phil had a brain and Internet access he'd be able to learn in a few
> seconds what Scott does for a living.


** It sure as hell is not electronics engineering.




........... Phil

 

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"Scott Dorsey"

" I'd say anything that has a crossover error that is visible by eye on a
scope with a 1 KHz sine wave
at 0.05V in with a gain of 100 is nasty. "


** I agree - but no way does an LM 301 do that. Not even at 100 kHz.

At 100 times gain @ 1 KHz with 50 mV input and a 600 ohm load - THD
measures a mere 0.01 %.

No crossover notching at all.

Scott Dorsey just plucks any figures he needs out of his fat arse.




.......... Phil