The solution to our nuke waste problem

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Glenn Dowdy wrote:

> I'd go even chances going up against a bear with a loaded .22 or
> pistolwhipping with an M1911A1.

I'll hold the wagers.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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Roger W. Norman wrote:

> Actually you're getting into probability, which suggests that one can't
> predict WHICH atom will decide to decay. The fact is that at least ONE atom
> will decay at a predicted time.

I am not a nuclear scientist, but as I understand it, it is the exact
opposite of that. The probability that any atom will decay during a
particular time interval is independent of the probabilities of all
the other atoms decaying. In fact, if my understanding is correct,
the theory is that the probability of decay is independent of everything,
i.e. it's truly random.

To me, it's pretty clear that if the above assumptions are true
(independent probability for each atom), then the time at which
all atoms will have decayed is totally unpredictable. To see
this, pick any time interval you want. You might typically see
lots of decay events during this time interval. But it's clear
that as you decrease the time interval, the chances of having no
events during that time interval increase. (Imagine you pick
1 nanosecond as your interval for a tiny chunk of some substance
with a long half-life.) So there has to be, for any chunk of
some substance, a finite time interval for which it's very likely
that no decay events occur. Since decay events are random (i.e.
follow an exponential probability distribution), they have no
"memory", which means that after that time interval, you have
not moved any closer to a decay event than you were. So, if
there's a finite chance that a time interval can elapse and you
can have no progress toward the end state, then the time it takes
for the process to complete can never be predicted.

> In an entirely unstable isotope, the
> probability becomes a universe where ALL the atoms can decide to decay at
> the exact same time, which means boom.

Well, if by "entirely unstable isotope", you mean a substance where
the probability that an atom will decay instantaneously is 100%, then
yeah. But in practice, as far as I know the probability of decay
over a finite time interval is always finite. Even when they make
a tiny sample of Element 106 in the lab and it only exists for 0.1
milliseconds or whatever before it decays, it still doesn't decay
*instantly*.

On the other hand, what is the probability that in the one-second
interval after I hit th "send" button on this post, that all the
atoms in some object (like my mechanical pencil) would decay?
Well, based on the theory I've heard, I'd have to conclude that
the probability isn't zero. However, because decay is pretty
unlikely for each atom, and since the probability is pretty much
independent, you basically just multiply all the probabilities
together. Even if you had 100 atoms that each had a 50% chance
of decaying in the next 1 second, you'd still only have a
1 in 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 chance of them all
decaying in one second. So, scaling that up to a mechanical pencil
reduces the probability even further, and the probability that all
of the atoms in the entire universe would all go at once is just so
vanishingly small (although still theoretically non-zero), that this
particular form of universe destruction is not a big worry. 🙂

Now, what did all this have to do with audio? Oh yeah, all that
pesky background radiation creates noise. Darn that stuff!

- Logan
 
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Logan Shaw wrote:


> On the other hand, what is the probability that in the one-second
> interval after I hit th "send" button on this post, that all the
> atoms in some object (like my mechanical pencil) would decay?
> Well, based on the theory I've heard, I'd have to conclude that
> the probability isn't zero.

Which says that it will occur in some universe in which
that's the only difference from those in which it doesn't
happen. Actually it will occur in an infinite number of
universes but the measure of such universes is
infinitessimally smaller than the measure of those in which
it doesn't. You'll be the one holding that pencil in all of
them, though, so it can be said with absolute accuracy that
you can count to ten and expect it to happen. Accurate for
some of you, that is.

Oh, that's the implication of the Many Worlds Interpretation
of quantum mechanics. 🙂


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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On 2004-11-08, Romeo Rondeau <romeo@oakwoodrecordingstudio.com> wrote:

> OK, let me get this straight... We're trying to kill the guy behind the
> plated armour... but in case he survives, we don't want him getting cancer
> from the dust?

We don't support the cause enough to justify killing people generations
into the future. However, I don't consider a small amount of Uranium to
be as big a problem as large amounts of other, less toxic, heavy metals.

And nothing compares to unexploded land mines in farmland areas.
 
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On 2004-11-08, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

> That's a lot, but what sort of tonnage of lead?
>
> I'm not saying uranium isn't bad for you, I'm just saying that lead is also
> bad for you. And leftover land mines are really, really bad for you.

Scott, you just about word for word expressed my sentiments.

This is my last political post on this non-political group. My views
are already held by others, and I thank you.
 
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"Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:_5-dnddOLooNRBLcRVn-sA@rcn.net...
> I can't dispute anything happening on the ground because I've beat feet on
> the ground in war. What I'm disputing is military and US policy that
places
> US military in harms way,

Like going to war?

> dispenses questionably toxic material in it's
> wake,

'questionably toxic' dust; serious toxic (fatal, at least) kinetic and
pyrophoric effects. That's the job of the military: kill people and break
things.

> and has minimal concern for the people it professes to want to
> liberate, not to mention the possible toll it takes on our own military
and
> their families.

So you'd sacrifice troops today to protect others in future from a possible
ill effect?

> Apparently policy doesn't care if there are less people to
> liberate, as long as someone gets liberated. The assumption, however, is
> that one person left standing because of our "help" is perfectly
acceptable.
>
I don't know where this comes from.

> My preference would be that MOST of the people we profess to try to
liberate
> get liberated, and hence I wouldn't want to leave their homeland scattered
> with munitions of any sort or toxic materials that will effect their lives
> for decades to come.

So lead for bullets is out, then?
>
> And I damned sure don't want my brothers in arms coming home to find
another
> 14 years before any recognition of any "syndrome" that may occur for
> whatever reason it occurrs,

I agree. But taking away weapons like DU penetrators increases the number
that won't be coming home. Given a choice between first kill hits on enemy
armor and the remote chance that someone will contract something down the
line, I'll keep DU. And so will the tankers, and the grunts protected by the
tankers. You've been in service; how many of your compatriots smoked? When I
was in fifteen years ago, it was nearly 80%. What's riskier, smoking or the
chance of long term illnesses caused by the chance of DU exposure, which may
or may not cause damage in any particular person?



> You suggest that any additional deaths based on some of these speculations
> is far less than the deaths already tabulated, but what you're not
> considering is that, in truth, we'd be talking about ADDING these deaths
to
> those that have already come.

Agreed. But given the opposing forces that our troops would have to face in
future conflicts, I don't want to take away from their efficiency and
survivability to avoid issues like DU.
>
> Time to stop suggesting that more death is for the good of the people.
It's
> not.

Sacrificing more of our troops should not be a goal, either.

Glenn D.
 
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"Nmm" <voxman@arvotek.net> wrote in message
news:d1a1b33a.0411081304.27132dc9@posting.google.com...
> "Romeo Rondeau" <romeo@oakwoodrecordingstudio.com> wrote in message
news:<10ou5f9lhmtk2d3@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > It's OK until you fire it down a gun barrel at high velocity and then
> > > bang it into armor plating. Some of it tends to get finely pulverized
> > > and oxidized. If you inhale the dust, that's bad. Worse than lead, in
> > > that respect, because it's more toxic.
> > >
> > > So you don't want to be on a battlefield where it's being used. Come
> > > to think of it, you probably don't want to be on a battlefield,
> > > period. As a turntable weight, it's probably as safe as lead.
> >
> > OK, let me get this straight... We're trying to kill the guy behind the
> > plated armour... but in case he survives, we don't want him getting
cancer
> > from the dust?
>
>
> No you don't want your guys getting cancer/ gulf war syndrome,

We don't want our guys getting blown-up-in-the-tank syndrome either. That's
why increased protection and first-shot kills are important.

> and
> everyone in a 1000 mile radius getting cancer/ gulf war syndrome.

My, what a boogyman you've turned this into. Just how much uranium oxide
dust is lying around, and how much does it take to cause problems?
>
> Right now the Iraqi counterinsurgents are not behind any plated
> armour anyway.

And we're not shooting DU rounds at soft targets, either. HE or API, or even
solid shot, is the weapon of preference for those targets.

Glenn D.
 
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"Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.no.dowdy@hpspam.com> wrote in message news:<DjRjd.2552$cf7.1000@news.cpqcorp.net>...
> "Nmm" <voxman@arvotek.net> wrote in message
> news:d1a1b33a.0411081304.27132dc9@posting.google.com...
> > "Romeo Rondeau" <romeo@oakwoodrecordingstudio.com> wrote in message
> news:<10ou5f9lhmtk2d3@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > It's OK until you fire it down a gun barrel at high velocity and then
> > > > bang it into armor plating. Some of it tends to get finely pulverized
> > > > and oxidized. If you inhale the dust, that's bad. Worse than lead, in
> > > > that respect, because it's more toxic.
> > > >
> > > > So you don't want to be on a battlefield where it's being used. Come
> > > > to think of it, you probably don't want to be on a battlefield,
> > > > period. As a turntable weight, it's probably as safe as lead.
> > >
> > > OK, let me get this straight... We're trying to kill the guy behind the
> > > plated armour... but in case he survives, we don't want him getting
> cancer
> > > from the dust?
> >
> >
> > No you don't want your guys getting cancer/ gulf war syndrome,
>
> We don't want our guys getting blown-up-in-the-tank syndrome either. That's
> why increased protection and first-shot kills are important.
>

And for all the Tank to Tank battles that were fought in Iraq?

Did the Iraqis even use tanks? Teriq Aziz told us before the war
started that they weren't going to fight this on conventional means.


> > and
> > everyone in a 1000 mile radius getting cancer/ gulf war syndrome.
>
> My, what a boogyman you've turned this into. Just how much uranium oxide
> dust is lying around, and how much does it take to cause problems?
> >

http://www.thepowerhour.com/articles/du_effects.htm

The long-term effects from over a decade of DU exposures are emerging
in Southern  Iraq. They are devastating. The increased  quantities of
radio-active material ( including non-depleted uranium), used in
Afghanistan are 3 to 5 times greater than Iraq 199.  In Iraq 2003
they are already estimated to be 6 to 10 times 1991 and will travel
through a larger area and affect many more people, babies and
unborn.  Countries within a 1000 mile radius of Baghdad and Kabul are
being affected by radiation poisoning , that includes the Capital,
New
Delhi, where the ruling elite lives. 

Somewhere in that article they also mention Iraq's 600% increase in
child Leukimia,

> > Right now the Iraqi counterinsurgents are not behind any plated
> > armour anyway.
>
> And we're not shooting DU rounds at soft targets, either. HE or API, or even
> solid shot, is the weapon of preference for those targets.
>
> Glenn D.


Well they were straffing Al Fallujah all day today from F-18s. That's
an M-61 Cannon that fires DU shells as far as i know.

They are also using field artillery. DU is the preffered shell in
Howitzers.

A-10 Warhogs?
 
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"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

> Actually you're getting into probability, which suggests that one can't
> predict WHICH atom will decide to decay. The fact is that at least ONE atom
> will decay at a predicted time.

Absolutely NOT so !

http://www.phobe.com/s_cat/s_cat.html

Graham
 
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Nmm wrote:

> Did the Iraqis even use tanks?

Not for long ! As in, I doubt they even got a shell fired.

The 'digital battlefield' wipes them out pretty fast.


Graham
 
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<< A better solution, although far more
expensive, is explosive shielding, which immediately reacts to an attempt at
penetration and explodes to counteract the kinetic energy of the offensive
weapon. >>




I did the post for a General Dynamics project about how to install GD Reactive
Tiles onto Bradley assault vehicles. Talk about fighting fire with fire!


Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com
 
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>See?...Do not argue with a rocket scientist. Scott really is a rocket
>scientist, and people would be wise not to try to argue on knowledge
>with him.

Funny thing is he was responding to a post by George...so we know no real
arguement will result.
So Scott..how do we aquire some of this depleted Uranium?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
 
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Blind Joni wrote:
>>See?...Do not argue with a rocket scientist. Scott really is a rocket
>>scientist, and people would be wise not to try to argue on knowledge
>>with him.
>
>
> Funny thing is he was responding to a post by George...so we know no real
> arguement will result.
> So Scott..how do we aquire some of this depleted Uranium?
>
>
That is correct John,

I rarely bother to argue
I point out facts and let others take it from there
george
 
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Nmm wrote:
> "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@commiecast.net> wrote in message news:<NL6dnTxexKU4vhDcRVn-vg@comcast.com>...
>
>> Fix the Sudan problem. You have all the answers.
>
>
> I really wish i knoew the solution or even the cause of the problems
> in Sudan.


Try this word:

Oil
 
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Kurt Albershardt wrote:
> Nmm wrote:
>
>> "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@commiecast.net> wrote in message
>> news:<NL6dnTxexKU4vhDcRVn-vg@comcast.com>...
>>
>>> Fix the Sudan problem. You have all the answers.
>>
>>
>>
>> I really wish i knoew the solution or even the cause of the problems
>> in Sudan.
>
>
>
>
Beer is the cause of and solution to all lifes problems
Homer