Upgrade or Downgrade of the Martin Logan

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will
find that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill
in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be
rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe
that Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of
driver."

The more likely difference in the electro / cone difference is
radiation pattern of the dipole electro and the monopole cone, very
different interactions with the room and the pattern as seen in the
listening spot. "Fast" has no meaning in a speakers performance except
as it applies to bandwidth. It takes x "speed" to produce a 100 hz
signal, regardless of speaker type and no more.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

outsor@city-net.com wrote:
>
> The more likely difference in the electro / cone difference is
> radiation pattern of the dipole electro and the monopole cone, very
> different interactions with the room and the pattern as seen in the
> listening spot. "Fast" has no meaning in a speakers performance except
> as it applies to bandwidth. It takes x "speed" to produce a 100 hz
> signal, regardless of speaker type and no more.

Well, I have noticed that almost every crossover design delays the bass
quite a bit. I experimented with Linkwitz-Riley 2nd and 4th order designs
and found them inacceptably introducing a delay, which had the effect of
what I call the bass is "limping behind".
I now use a novel subtractive active xover I developed myself and now the
bass integrates absolutly flawless with my Manger MSW treble speakers. The
pulse response has become beautiful.
BTW I will offer a little unexpensive box with a few controls, so this can
be tried out by everyone with bi-amped speakers. The advantage is highest
for very low crossover points(below 500Hz) or subwoofer integration.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Regarding "speed" of speakers:d

"Well, I have noticed that almost every crossover design delays the bass
quite a bit. I experimented with Linkwitz-Riley 2nd and 4th order designs
and found them inacceptably introducing a delay, which had the effect of
what I call the bass is "limping behind".
I now use a novel subtractive active xover I developed myself and now the
bass integrates absolutly flawless with my Manger MSW treble speakers. The
pulse response has become beautiful."

This is not related to "speed", the original comments were in the context
that a cone sub and electro mid and upper sounded different because the
sub didn't have the "speed" of the latter. Many sub woofers have phase
controls, which can address the "time" mismatch to some degree, as can
placement and swapping wire connections just as easily and with a greater
range. The "delay" introduced is questionable with regard to audibility,
this can be tested of course, grin. There is also the question of x
amount of delay at all freqs and increasing delay with freq change. The
former is addressed as above. In some research of audibility of the
latter it was not audibile if matched in the xover region and smoothly
changed with freq.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Stewart Pinkerton <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 9 Oct 2004 04:52:41 GMT, Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote:

> >nabob33@hotmail.com (Bob Marcus) wrote in
> >news:ck6bbd02v55@news3.newsguy.com:
> >
> >> Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:
> >>>
> >>> Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among
> >>> different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it
> >>> becomes pure subjective?
> >>>
> >> Because scientific comparison demonstrates that, when it comes to
> >> speakers, it really is purely subjective, at least in a practical
> >> sense. Speakers, unlike (most) amps and wires, really do sound
> >> different. There's some good research that correlates listener
> >> preferences with speaker measurements, but those measurements are far
> >> more detailed than anything you can find on a spec sheet. So all the
> >> average consumer has to go on is his ears--or somebody else's ears.
> >> Stewart was merely suggesting that you go with your own ears.
> >>
> >> bob
> >
> >No! That is totally unacceptable! When people said cables, pre-amps, and
> >amplifiers made a difference, they said they can hear it, it is totally
> >subjective, at that time, you guys said it has to has scientific prove or
> >else you just imagine yourself.

> Correct - and you'll find that if you compare speakers under DBT
> conditions, you'll score 100% every time. Indeed, companies such as
> Revel use precisely this technique in the development of their
> speakers, to find out if some design tweak has *really* made an
> audible difference.


Harman/JBL appears to use it at least as much to nullify biasing
effects of brand and appearance, when doing comparisons of
different speakers.


--
-S
Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere.

 

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"B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ckbimr0bsm@news1.newsguy.com...
>
> I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will
find
> that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
> relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill
> in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be
> rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe
that
> Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.
>
> I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your
> home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since
the
> transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer.

Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO there
are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there wouldn't
be any. In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or
another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never
really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a subwoofer
and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads and
Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever
heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio circles,
"too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have it
over anything else. They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as
close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording in
question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and are
not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees). If you have high
current delivering amps capable of driving low resistance speakers, space
for the speakers to "breathe", you are all set. If you don't tear down some
walls, or move and acquire the right amps before you die because IMO
Magnepan truly offers to die for speakers.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 10/11/04 9:34 PM, in article ckfcaq0277e@news3.newsguy.com, "Norman M.
Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net> wrote:

> "B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:ckbimr0bsm@news1.newsguy.com...
>>
>> I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will
> find
>> that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
>> relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill
>> in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be
>> rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe
> that
>> Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.
>>
>> I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your
>> home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since
> the
>> transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer.
>
> Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO there
> are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there wouldn't
> be any.

The Sound Concept in Rochester, NY -- my personal favorite and the one I
patronize - stocks both. And there are three high end stores in the area
that I know of.

http/www.thesoundconcept.com/

The Quad dealer is in Buffalo, BTW.

I suppose the exception proves the rule? I was surprised, too.

> In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or
> another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never
> really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a subwoofer
> and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads and
> Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever
> heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio circles,
> "too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have it
> over anything else.

You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer
Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll
off something fierce.

>They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as
> close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording in
> question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and are
> not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees). If you have high
> current delivering amps capable of driving low resistance speakers, space
> for the speakers to "breathe", you are all set. If you don't tear down some
> walls, or move and acquire the right amps before you die because IMO
> Magnepan truly offers to die for speakers.

One of my co-workers is a major Maggie fan - he bought a house with the
criteria that there be a large enough room for his Tympanis! His wife is
used to this and puts up with it - I told her it was clear he had proper
pririties!

I am discovering that I like Thiels as much as the Maggies - funnily enough!
They seem to want almost as much current and complain mightily when they
don't have it

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

outsor@city-net.com wrote:
> Regarding "speed" of speakers:d
>
>> "Well, I have noticed that almost every crossover design delays the
>> bass quite a bit. I experimented with Linkwitz-Riley 2nd and 4th
>> order designs and found them inacceptably introducing a delay, which
>> had the effect of what I call the bass is "limping behind".
>
> This is not related to "speed", the original comments were in the
> context that a cone sub and electro mid and upper sounded different
> because the sub didn't have the "speed" of the latter. Many sub
> woofers have phase controls, which can address the "time" mismatch to
> some degree, as can placement and swapping wire connections just as
> easily and with a greater range.

But allpass style crossovers delay the bass, and an additional allpass will
delay even more, only with a (DSP based) digital delay you can delay high
frequencies. This is a severe limit of analog electronics, there simply is
no possibility of a high quality delay for higher frequencies. Let us have a
look at a usual crossover as recommended for THX. (80Hz, 4th order L-R)
The lower frequencies will be delayed by 6.78ms(max at 52Hz) compared to the
treble, which is not delayed at all.
This means, that the bass originates *2.3m* behind the treble, only because
of the crossover!
If this is audible or not can be tested with DBT, I have done so(only with 3
persons, but 100% recognition) and found it audible.
When there is a kick from the bassdrum, you destinctly hear first the "plop"
of the pedal with the "boom" coming limping behind. Anybody who has a
conventionally crossed-over subwoofer will notice this. Also the bass seems
to be not completly integrated, somehow a doubt exists if it belongs to the
music.
Please answer if you can hear this.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 12 Oct 2004 01:34:18 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net>
wrote:

>"B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:ckbimr0bsm@news1.newsguy.com...
>>
>> I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will find
>> that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
>> relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill
>> in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be
>> rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe that
>> Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.
>>
>> I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your
>> home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since the
>> transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer.
>
>Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO there
>are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there wouldn't
>be any.

However, it appears from another post that there are several in one
fairly restricted area, suggesting that there is indeed a fair number
of fdealers who carry both brands. IME, good high end dealers do carry
competing brands, as it's in their interest to offer a good choice to
their customers. Some of the less scrupulous companies such as Linn do
certainly go to some lengths to pressure their dealers against such
stocking of competitors' wares, but I don't believe this to be
widespread among reputable manufacturers.

> In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or
>another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never
>really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a subwoofer
>and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads and
>Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever
>heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio circles,
>"too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have it
>over anything else.

Well, that's certainly one opinion, but if you like that style of
sound, you should also listen to other full-range panels, such as
Audiostat, Sound Lab, ML's own CLS, and of course the Quad 988/989.

>They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as
>close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording in
>question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and are
>not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees).

I have Apogee Duetta Signatures, and they are definitely not 'steely
ice cold', they are in fact one of the most natural sounding speakers
I have ever heard, even more so than the Maggie IIIC with which I
directly compared them when purchasing. Of course, to coin a phrase, I
would say that!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ckfihi01rn6@news1.newsguy.com...
> On 10/11/04 9:34 PM, in article ckfcaq0277e@news3.newsguy.com, "Norman M.
> Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > "B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:ckbimr0bsm@news1.newsguy.com...
> >>
> >> I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will
> > find
> >> that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
> >> relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to
fill
> >> in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to
be
> >> rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe
> > that
> >> Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.
> >>
> >> I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in
your
> >> home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since
> > the
> >> transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer.
> >
> > Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO
there
> > are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there
wouldn't
> > be any.
>
> The Sound Concept in Rochester, NY -- my personal favorite and the one I
> patronize - stocks both. And there are three high end stores in the area
> that I know of.
>
> http/www.thesoundconcept.com/
>
> The Quad dealer is in Buffalo, BTW.
>
> I suppose the exception proves the rule? I was surprised, too.
>
> > In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or
> > another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never
> > really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a
subwoofer
> > and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads
and
> > Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever
> > heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio
circles,
> > "too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have
it
> > over anything else.
>
> You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer
> Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll
> off something fierce.
>
> >They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as
> > close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording
in
> > question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and
are
> > not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees). If you have high
> > current delivering amps capable of driving low resistance speakers,
space
> > for the speakers to "breathe", you are all set. If you don't tear down
some
> > walls, or move and acquire the right amps before you die because IMO
> > Magnepan truly offers to die for speakers.
>
> One of my co-workers is a major Maggie fan - he bought a house with the
> criteria that there be a large enough room for his Tympanis! His wife is
> used to this and puts up with it - I told her it was clear he had proper
> pririties!
>
> I am discovering that I like Thiels as much as the Maggies - funnily
enough!
> They seem to want almost as much current and complain mightily when they
> don't have it
>

After owning Maggies, only Thiels and before that IMF monitors floated my
boat among dynamics.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ckfihi01rn6@news1.newsguy.com...
> On 10/11/04 9:34 PM, in article ckfcaq0277e@news3.newsguy.com, "Norman M.
> Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > "B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:ckbimr0bsm@news1.newsguy.com...
> >>
> >> I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will
> > find
> >> that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
> >> relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to
fill
> >> in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to
be
> >> rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe
> > that
> >> Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.
> >>
> >> I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in
your
> >> home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since
> > the
> >> transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer.
> >
> > Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO
there
> > are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there
wouldn't
> > be any.
>
> The Sound Concept in Rochester, NY -- my personal favorite and the one I
> patronize - stocks both. And there are three high end stores in the area
> that I know of.
>

I suppose that is what meant by "live and learn".

>
> You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer
> Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll
> off something fierce.
>

This is true, but why would anyone want to stand up when listening? Another
problem which I experience related to *seating* elevation is that when I
choose a chair putting me closer to the floor, the lower frequencies become
bloated and the resultant soundstage is unattractive. I think the take home
lesson from all this is that one must to be very careful and do a lot of
experimenting with both speaker placement *and* seating position before
reaching any firm conclusion as to faults and strengths of any speaker
system. (People who perform room Equeing must be very familiar with this
situation.) Perhaps maggies require more attention to this issue than do
most other speakers?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 10/12/04 7:59 PM, in article ckhr450gll@news4.newsguy.com, "Norman M.
Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net> wrote:

>> You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer
>> Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll
>> off something fierce.
>>
>
> This is true, but why would anyone want to stand up when listening?

Good point, though I have been known to have stuff playing in the background
as I putter around the house.


>Another
> problem which I experience related to *seating* elevation is that when I
> choose a chair putting me closer to the floor, the lower frequencies become
> bloated and the resultant soundstage is unattractive.

I hadn't noticed this, but given how Maggies behave, I can see that as an
"issue"


>I think the take home
> lesson from all this is that one must to be very careful and do a lot of
> experimenting with both speaker placement *and* seating position before
> reaching any firm conclusion as to faults and strengths of any speaker
> system. (People who perform room Equeing must be very familiar with this
> situation.) Perhaps maggies require more attention to this issue than do
> most other speakers?

I think the rewards for the "fussiness" of Maggies make it all worthwhile.
I have found that Thiels are not nearly as fussy, though still reward
"proper" placement.

Though, many people want things that are less fussy to room acoustics and
placement - and for those something a bit less resolving and a bit more
forgiving is on order!