Upgrade or Downgrade of the Martin Logan

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Hi, I've heard that the Innersound speakers sound better than the Martin
Logan, is that the case? Anyone has the experience?

I have the Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1
right now. How's the Kaya Reference or the Eros MK III sounds compare to
the Prodigy?

Just an addition comparison, how about the Magnepan MG 20.1 compare to the
above two (three)?

Thanks for your advice.

Lawrence

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 5 Oct 2004 23:56:34 GMT, Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hi, I've heard that the Innersound speakers sound better than the Martin
>Logan, is that the case? Anyone has the experience?

They certainly sound *different*, as you'd expect. 'Better' is not a
term which sensibly fits those two, since both are highly competent
and have similar design credentials. Go listen for yourself.

>I have the Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1
>right now. How's the Kaya Reference or the Eros MK III sounds compare to
>the Prodigy?

No way to tell, since they're not in your room. Go listen for
yourself. In particular, get a home demo. With speakers like these, a
home demo is *essential*.

BTW, I can see where you're coming from on amps, since Parasound uses
the NAD model of local design and overseas manufacture. Rest assured
that this John Curl design (hence the JC1) is as good as anything made
by Halcro or Mark Levinson (did you know that John Curl has also
designed ML products?), and has enough power to drive any reasonable
speaker.

>Just an addition comparison, how about the Magnepan MG 20.1 compare to the
>above two (three)?

Entirely different room interaction with the big Maggies, especially
in the bass. Are they 'better'? Who knows? Go listen for yourself.

In a more general sense, why do you want other people's opinions on
the sound of speakers? Especially with the planar types you mention,
they will vary *enormously* depending on the kind of room they're in,
so despite both being high quality speakers with large dipole
radiators, my Apogees are not going to sound anything like your
Prodigys, since they are in entirely different rooms. Understanding
such basics is *essential* to advancing the overall sound quality of
your system.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ck1vse02h3s@news4.newsguy.com...
> On 5 Oct 2004 23:56:34 GMT, Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi, I've heard that the Innersound speakers sound better than the Martin
> >Logan, is that the case? Anyone has the experience?
>
> They certainly sound *different*, as you'd expect. 'Better' is not a
> term which sensibly fits those two, since both are highly competent
> and have similar design credentials. Go listen for yourself.
>
> >I have the Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1
> >right now. How's the Kaya Reference or the Eros MK III sounds compare to
> >the Prodigy?
>
> No way to tell, since they're not in your room. Go listen for
> yourself. In particular, get a home demo. With speakers like these, a
> home demo is *essential*.
>
> BTW, I can see where you're coming from on amps, since Parasound uses
> the NAD model of local design and overseas manufacture. Rest assured
> that this John Curl design (hence the JC1) is as good as anything made
> by Halcro or Mark Levinson (did you know that John Curl has also
> designed ML products?), and has enough power to drive any reasonable
> speaker.
>
> >Just an addition comparison, how about the Magnepan MG 20.1 compare to
the
> >above two (three)?
>
> Entirely different room interaction with the big Maggies, especially
> in the bass. Are they 'better'? Who knows? Go listen for yourself.
>
> In a more general sense, why do you want other people's opinions on
> the sound of speakers? Especially with the planar types you mention,
> they will vary *enormously* depending on the kind of room they're in,
> so despite both being high quality speakers with large dipole
> radiators, my Apogees are not going to sound anything like your
> Prodigys, since they are in entirely different rooms. Understanding
> such basics is *essential* to advancing the overall sound quality of
> your system.
> --
>

An in home audition of a MG 20.1? Neat trick if you can do it.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 7 Oct 2004 03:15:14 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net>
wrote:

>"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ck1vse02h3s@news4.newsguy.com...
>> On 5 Oct 2004 23:56:34 GMT, Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi, I've heard that the Innersound speakers sound better than the Martin
>> >Logan, is that the case? Anyone has the experience?
>>
>> They certainly sound *different*, as you'd expect. 'Better' is not a
>> term which sensibly fits those two, since both are highly competent
>> and have similar design credentials. Go listen for yourself.
>>
>> >I have the Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1
>> >right now. How's the Kaya Reference or the Eros MK III sounds compare to
>> >the Prodigy?
>>
>> No way to tell, since they're not in your room. Go listen for
>> yourself. In particular, get a home demo. With speakers like these, a
>> home demo is *essential*.
>>
>> BTW, I can see where you're coming from on amps, since Parasound uses
>> the NAD model of local design and overseas manufacture. Rest assured
>> that this John Curl design (hence the JC1) is as good as anything made
>> by Halcro or Mark Levinson (did you know that John Curl has also
>> designed ML products?), and has enough power to drive any reasonable
>> speaker.
>>
>> >Just an addition comparison, how about the Magnepan MG 20.1 compare to
>the
>> >above two (three)?
>>
>> Entirely different room interaction with the big Maggies, especially
>> in the bass. Are they 'better'? Who knows? Go listen for yourself.
>>
>> In a more general sense, why do you want other people's opinions on
>> the sound of speakers? Especially with the planar types you mention,
>> they will vary *enormously* depending on the kind of room they're in,
>> so despite both being high quality speakers with large dipole
>> radiators, my Apogees are not going to sound anything like your
>> Prodigys, since they are in entirely different rooms. Understanding
>> such basics is *essential* to advancing the overall sound quality of
>> your system.
>> --
>>
>An in home audition of a MG 20.1? Neat trick if you can do it.

But otherwise, there's simply *no* point in giving advice, since large
planar dipoles are acutely room-sensitive. Besides, any dealer selling
MG 20s should without question be offering a 'money back' home trial
of at least two weeks. If you can't afford to pony up for that, how
were you going to pay for the speakers in the first place?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Stewart Pinkerton <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in
news:ck1vse02h3s@news4.newsguy.com:

> In a more general sense, why do you want other people's opinions on
> the sound of speakers? Especially with the planar types you mention,
> they will vary *enormously* depending on the kind of room they're in,
> so despite both being high quality speakers with large dipole
> radiators, my Apogees are not going to sound anything like your
> Prodigys, since they are in entirely different rooms. Understanding
> such basics is *essential* to advancing the overall sound quality of
> your system.

First, thank you Mr. Pinkerton for your feedback.

Second, in a more general sense, the purpose of this forum is for people to
ask questions and/or opinions. If everybody think, "Well, why should I ask
questions / opinions, I just go test drive myself." Then this forum will be
useless other than for people argue about DBT!

Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different
products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure
subjective?

If you don't know, just say it or not reply to this thread.

Thanks!

Lawrence

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different
> products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure
> subjective?

Do you disagree that all speakers have audible flaws that are severe enough in
degree and number to render them 'accurate' in the sense that amplifiers are
that they can be chosen in the same way?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:
>
> Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different
> products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure
> subjective?
>
Because scientific comparison demonstrates that, when it comes to
speakers, it really is purely subjective, at least in a practical
sense. Speakers, unlike (most) amps and wires, really do sound
different. There's some good research that correlates listener
preferences with speaker measurements, but those measurements are far
more detailed than anything you can find on a spec sheet. So all the
average consumer has to go on is his ears--or somebody else's ears.
Stewart was merely suggesting that you go with your own ears.

bob

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 8 Oct 2004 05:17:48 GMT, Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Stewart Pinkerton <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in
>news:ck1vse02h3s@news4.newsguy.com:
>
>> In a more general sense, why do you want other people's opinions on
>> the sound of speakers? Especially with the planar types you mention,
>> they will vary *enormously* depending on the kind of room they're in,
>> so despite both being high quality speakers with large dipole
>> radiators, my Apogees are not going to sound anything like your
>> Prodigys, since they are in entirely different rooms. Understanding
>> such basics is *essential* to advancing the overall sound quality of
>> your system.
>
>First, thank you Mr. Pinkerton for your feedback.
>
>Second, in a more general sense, the purpose of this forum is for people to
>ask questions and/or opinions. If everybody think, "Well, why should I ask
>questions / opinions, I just go test drive myself." Then this forum will be
>useless other than for people argue about DBT!

Depends what you want to know, now doesn't it? You want to be told
something that is impossible to say with any reasonable degree of
accuracy.

>Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different
>products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure
>subjective?

Did you not read what I wrote? If you have worked your way up to
Prodigys (I'm assuming that they're not your first speaker!), then you
should already know that (unlike amps or cables) almost all speakers
sound very noticeably different. Since you use large planar dipoles,
you should also be aware that moving them a couple of feet makes a
*vast* difference to how they sound. Hence, aside from simplistic
'things to avoid' advice on basically *bad* speakers (of which there
are virtually none in the large planar category), it's simply not
possible to say that one speaker of this type will sound 'better' than
another in any given room. I've not heard anything better than my
Apogee Duetta Signatures in *my* room (for my personal tastes, of
course), but say Quad 989s might be better than anything else in
*your* room - or they might not. Your Prodigys are fine speakers by
any standard, so perhaps you could start by letting us know in what
way *you* find them to be less than ideal, and we might point you to
speakers which excel in those areas - there are no speakers which do
*everything* superbly.

>If you don't know, just say it or not reply to this thread.

What I said was that neither I *nor anyone else* apart from you knows
what a large planar dipole speaker (which appears to be the type you
prefer) will sound like in *your* room. If you consider that to be
non-useful information, then I suggest you try somewhere like
www.audioasylum.com, where you will be absolutely *deluged* with
flamboyant opinions on any speaker you care to name. The *value* of
those opinions is perhaps more arguable....................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

nabob33@hotmail.com (Bob Marcus) wrote in
news:ck6bbd02v55@news3.newsguy.com:

> Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:
>>
>> Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among
>> different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it
>> becomes pure subjective?
>>
> Because scientific comparison demonstrates that, when it comes to
> speakers, it really is purely subjective, at least in a practical
> sense. Speakers, unlike (most) amps and wires, really do sound
> different. There's some good research that correlates listener
> preferences with speaker measurements, but those measurements are far
> more detailed than anything you can find on a spec sheet. So all the
> average consumer has to go on is his ears--or somebody else's ears.
> Stewart was merely suggesting that you go with your own ears.
>
> bob

No! That is totally unacceptable! When people said cables, pre-amps, and
amplifiers made a difference, they said they can hear it, it is totally
subjective, at that time, you guys said it has to has scientific prove or
else you just imagine yourself.

When it comes to something that you believe, you then said any scientific
figures or measurements would not count, you have to be totally
subjective!

I call it double standard! So from now on, when people claim that they
can hear the difference between cables, amplifiers, you just cannot doubt
it because that is what you are doing in speakers!

I appreciate Stewart's feedback, and I will go to listen with my own
ears, but sometimes it is pretty hard to move around a Innersound
speakers or a Magneplan.

Lawrence

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ck57g102r40@news2.newsguy.com...

> >An in home audition of a MG 20.1? Neat trick if you can do it.
>
> But otherwise, there's simply *no* point in giving advice, since large
> planar dipoles are acutely room-sensitive. Besides, any dealer selling
> MG 20s should without question be offering a 'money back' home trial
> of at least two weeks. If you can't afford to pony up for that, how
> were you going to pay for the speakers in the first place?
> --

It is assumed we are not putzing around here and that we have the funds
available not only to purchase the speakers but also own the equipment
necessary for their satisfactory amplification. It is also assumed we have
appropriate living quarters for a suitable location offering their best
possible sound (and that we will not have to move them about when we are
entertaining so as to then trip over their cableing Twelve inches
towards a wrong location makes a huge difference in the sound of my Maggies.
Are you suggesting that a dealer will sacrfice his floor model for a 2 week
audition or is he/she to offer you a brand new MG 20.1 for this purpose? If
the latter, once out of their original boxes and in your home for this
audition, how are they to be sold, new/used? How will the speaker be trucked
back and forth to your home? Who is going to undertake the cost of their
safe packageing and transport in the event you decide not to purchase them?
As I indicated, "neat trick if you can do it". My Magnepan dealer has been
in my home attending to the ribbons in my speakers several times and in
another occasion to install wire behind my walls and underneath a crawl
space in another room used for HT. Yet I still don't not have the balls to
suggest what you are proposeing.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 9 Oct 2004 04:52:41 GMT, Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote:

>nabob33@hotmail.com (Bob Marcus) wrote in
>news:ck6bbd02v55@news3.newsguy.com:
>
>> Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:
>>>
>>> Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among
>>> different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it
>>> becomes pure subjective?
>>>
>> Because scientific comparison demonstrates that, when it comes to
>> speakers, it really is purely subjective, at least in a practical
>> sense. Speakers, unlike (most) amps and wires, really do sound
>> different. There's some good research that correlates listener
>> preferences with speaker measurements, but those measurements are far
>> more detailed than anything you can find on a spec sheet. So all the
>> average consumer has to go on is his ears--or somebody else's ears.
>> Stewart was merely suggesting that you go with your own ears.
>>
>> bob
>
>No! That is totally unacceptable! When people said cables, pre-amps, and
>amplifiers made a difference, they said they can hear it, it is totally
>subjective, at that time, you guys said it has to has scientific prove or
>else you just imagine yourself.

Correct - and you'll find that if you compare speakers under DBT
conditions, you'll score 100% every time. Indeed, companies such as
Revel use precisely this technique in the development of their
speakers, to find out if some design tweak has *really* made an
audible difference. Hence, the science *has* been done, and it shows
that speakers do indeed sound different. It follows that judgements on
speakers are indeed entirely subjective, and you should not fully
trust the opinion of anyone else, since they will have different
preferences and will be listening in different rooms. Personally, I
can't stand overbright treble, and that personal preference would
colour my opinion of any given speaker. I also have a quite large and
fairly 'dead' room with no slap echo, so I can tolerate a level of
bass power and depth which would be quite overwhelming in a different
environment.

>When it comes to something that you believe, you then said any scientific
>figures or measurements would not count, you have to be totally
>subjective!

I said no such thing, and 'belief' has nothing to do with the *fact*
that speakers have gross audible differences.

>I call it double standard! So from now on, when people claim that they
>can hear the difference between cables, amplifiers, you just cannot doubt
>it because that is what you are doing in speakers!

Utter rubbish.

>I appreciate Stewart's feedback, and I will go to listen with my own
>ears, but sometimes it is pretty hard to move around a Innersound
>speakers or a Magneplan.

Nobody said that getting the best possible sound was *easy* - or
cheap!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 9 Oct 2004 04:57:34 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net>
wrote:

>"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ck57g102r40@news2.newsguy.com...
>
>> >An in home audition of a MG 20.1? Neat trick if you can do it.
>>
>> But otherwise, there's simply *no* point in giving advice, since large
>> planar dipoles are acutely room-sensitive. Besides, any dealer selling
>> MG 20s should without question be offering a 'money back' home trial
>> of at least two weeks. If you can't afford to pony up for that, how
>> were you going to pay for the speakers in the first place?
>> --
>
>It is assumed we are not putzing around here and that we have the funds
>available not only to purchase the speakers but also own the equipment
>necessary for their satisfactory amplification. It is also assumed we have
>appropriate living quarters for a suitable location offering their best
>possible sound (and that we will not have to move them about when we are
>entertaining so as to then trip over their cableing Twelve inches
>towards a wrong location makes a huge difference in the sound of my Maggies.
>Are you suggesting that a dealer will sacrfice his floor model for a 2 week
>audition or is he/she to offer you a brand new MG 20.1 for this purpose? If
>the latter, once out of their original boxes and in your home for this
>audition, how are they to be sold, new/used? How will the speaker be trucked
>back and forth to your home? Who is going to undertake the cost of their
>safe packageing and transport in the event you decide not to purchase them?
>As I indicated, "neat trick if you can do it". My Magnepan dealer has been
>in my home attending to the ribbons in my speakers several times and in
>another occasion to install wire behind my walls and underneath a crawl
>space in another room used for HT. Yet I still don't not have the balls to
>suggest what you are proposeing.

That you, in your own words, "don't have the balls" to suggest a 'sale
or return' deal on speakers which may be quite unsuited to your room,
does not make it a bad idea. I don't know what dealers are like in
your area, but I have *never* encountered a 'high-end' dealer in the
UK who was not prepared to allow such a deal, and I would certainly
never deal with one who had such an attitude. What, if you spent say
$5,000 on a pair of speakers that just didn't work in your room, you
would be happy to keep them?

BTW, I would be happy to pay for shipping costs in such a case,
although the matter has never come up. In fact, my local dealer
*insists* on making home deliveries, probably as a security measure. I
have probably rejected a dozen assorted amplifiers and speakers over
the years after a few days home trial, and this has never caused a
problem. To be fair, I've spent the same or more money on actual
purchases, so the dealers know that there's an eventual sale in it -
I'm not just a 'tyre kicker'. I don't think I've ever taken more than
a week to decide that something just wasn't going to work, but any
dealer I've ever bought from has had a 30-day return policy - and not
with any 'restocking' charges.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ck7qqp01131@news4.newsguy.com>...
> nabob33@hotmail.com (Bob Marcus) wrote in
> news:ck6bbd02v55@news3.newsguy.com:
>
> > Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:
> >>
> >> Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among
> >> different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it
> >> becomes pure subjective?
> >>
> > Because scientific comparison demonstrates that, when it comes to
> > speakers, it really is purely subjective, at least in a practical
> > sense. Speakers, unlike (most) amps and wires, really do sound
> > different. There's some good research that correlates listener
> > preferences with speaker measurements, but those measurements are far
> > more detailed than anything you can find on a spec sheet. So all the
> > average consumer has to go on is his ears--or somebody else's ears.
> > Stewart was merely suggesting that you go with your own ears.
> >
> > bob
>
> No! That is totally unacceptable!

Well, it's the truth. If you can't accept the truth, you should run
for president.

> When people said cables, pre-amps, and
> amplifiers made a difference, they said they can hear it, it is totally
> subjective, at that time, you guys said it has to has scientific prove or
> else you just imagine yourself.

Yes, that is (roughly) what we guys said, because that is what
scientific investigation has found: Two components with similar FR and
measured distortion cannot be reliably distinguished by sound alone.
>
> When it comes to something that you believe, you then said any scientific
> figures or measurements would not count, you have to be totally
> subjective!

No, that is not what we/I said at all. Scientific investigation has
*proven*, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that speakers are almost always
distinguishable by sound alone.
>
> I call it double standard! So from now on, when people claim that they
> can hear the difference between cables, amplifiers, you just cannot doubt
> it because that is what you are doing in speakers!
>
No, it's a single standard. Note that scientific investigation is the
basis for all of the assertions I made above.

bob

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

nabob33@hotmail.com (Bob Marcus) wrote:

>
>Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:<ck7qqp01131@news4.newsguy.com>...
>> nabob33@hotmail.com (Bob Marcus) wrote in
>> news:ck6bbd02v55@news3.newsguy.com:
>>
>> > Lawrence <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:
>> >>
>> >> Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among
>> >> different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it
>> >> becomes pure subjective?
>> >>
>> > Because scientific comparison demonstrates that, when it comes to
>> > speakers, it really is purely subjective, at least in a practical
>> > sense. Speakers, unlike (most) amps and wires, really do sound
>> > different. There's some good research that correlates listener
>> > preferences with speaker measurements, but those measurements are far
>> > more detailed than anything you can find on a spec sheet. So all the
>> > average consumer has to go on is his ears--or somebody else's ears.
>> > Stewart was merely suggesting that you go with your own ears.
>> >
>> > bob
>>
>> No! That is totally unacceptable!
>
>Well, it's the truth. If you can't accept the truth, you should run
>for president.
>
>> When people said cables, pre-amps, and
>> amplifiers made a difference, they said they can hear it, it is totally
>> subjective, at that time, you guys said it has to has scientific prove or
>> else you just imagine yourself.
>
>Yes, that is (roughly) what we guys said, because that is what
>scientific investigation has found: Two components with similar FR and
>measured distortion cannot be reliably distinguished by sound alone.
>>
>> When it comes to something that you believe, you then said any scientific
>> figures or measurements would not count, you have to be totally
>> subjective!
>
>No, that is not what we/I said at all. Scientific investigation has
>*proven*, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that speakers are almost always
>distinguishable by sound alone.
>>
>> I call it double standard! So from now on, when people claim that they
>> can hear the difference between cables, amplifiers, you just cannot doubt
>> it because that is what you are doing in speakers!
>>
>No, it's a single standard. Note that scientific investigation is the
>basis for all of the assertions I made above.
>
>bob

Bias controls are still a good idea for any comparative evaluation. But, even
if you use 2 identical loudspeakers they will usually be identifiable because
no 2 speakers can occupy the same physical location in any room at the same
time. Because they occupy no acoustical space electronics and cabling do not
have this as an issue.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 10/9/04 11:22 AM, in article ck8vo60l79@news3.newsguy.com, "Stewart
Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:

> That you, in your own words, "don't have the balls" to suggest a 'sale
> or return' deal on speakers which may be quite unsuited to your room,
> does not make it a bad idea. I don't know what dealers are like in
> your area, but I have *never* encountered a 'high-end' dealer in the
> UK who was not prepared to allow such a deal,

The place I bought my Thiels from had a 3 month money back, and a 12 month
return for 100% store credit on the speakers. Electronics were 90 days for
100% refund.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Lawrence
I'm not sure many of these responses will have moved you forward much.
Stewart Pinkerton makes a valid point about each of these speakers sounding
different in different rooms, but nevertheless....
I own Innersound Eros speakers and like them very much. In my view they
manage the transition between electrostatic and transmission line better
than the Martin Logan equivalents, though I think latest ML models have
improved in that respect. I can also vouch for the quality of their
after-sales service (and like Stewart, I'm in the UK, so geography is an
issue). But you really do need to hear them both, even if you can't manage
this simultaneously!

--
Paul Graber
"Lawrence" <cpleung0817@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cjvcbi02cab@news2.newsguy.com...
> Hi, I've heard that the Innersound speakers sound better than the Martin
> Logan, is that the case? Anyone has the experience?
>
> I have the Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1
> right now. How's the Kaya Reference or the Eros MK III sounds compare to
> the Prodigy?
>
> Just an addition comparison, how about the Magnepan MG 20.1 compare to the
> above two (three)?
>
> Thanks for your advice.
>
> Lawrence

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ck8vo60l79@news3.newsguy.com...
> On 9 Oct 2004 04:57:34 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net>
> wrote:
>
> >"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:ck57g102r40@news2.newsguy.com...
> >
> >> >An in home audition of a MG 20.1? Neat trick if you can do it.
> >>
> >> But otherwise, there's simply *no* point in giving advice, since large
> >> planar dipoles are acutely room-sensitive. Besides, any dealer selling
> >> MG 20s should without question be offering a 'money back' home trial
> >> of at least two weeks. If you can't afford to pony up for that, how
> >> were you going to pay for the speakers in the first place?
> >> --
> >
> >It is assumed we are not putzing around here and that we have the funds
> >available not only to purchase the speakers but also own the equipment
> >necessary for their satisfactory amplification. It is also assumed we
have
> >appropriate living quarters for a suitable location offering their best
> >possible sound (and that we will not have to move them about when we are
> >entertaining so as to then trip over their cableing Twelve inches
> >towards a wrong location makes a huge difference in the sound of my
Maggies.
> >Are you suggesting that a dealer will sacrfice his floor model for a 2
week
> >audition or is he/she to offer you a brand new MG 20.1 for this purpose?
If
> >the latter, once out of their original boxes and in your home for this
> >audition, how are they to be sold, new/used? How will the speaker be
trucked
> >back and forth to your home? Who is going to undertake the cost of their
> >safe packageing and transport in the event you decide not to purchase
them?
> >As I indicated, "neat trick if you can do it". My Magnepan dealer has
been
> >in my home attending to the ribbons in my speakers several times and in
> >another occasion to install wire behind my walls and underneath a crawl
> >space in another room used for HT. Yet I still don't not have the balls
to
> >suggest what you are proposeing.
>
> That you, in your own words, "don't have the balls" to suggest a 'sale
> or return' deal on speakers which may be quite unsuited to your room,
> does not make it a bad idea. I don't know what dealers are like in
> your area, but I have *never* encountered a 'high-end' dealer in the
> UK who was not prepared to allow such a deal, and I would certainly
> never deal with one who had such an attitude. What, if you spent say
> $5,000 on a pair of speakers that just didn't work in your room, you
> would be happy to keep them?
>
> BTW, I would be happy to pay for shipping costs in such a case,
> although the matter has never come up. In fact, my local dealer
> *insists* on making home deliveries, probably as a security measure. I
> have probably rejected a dozen assorted amplifiers and speakers over
> the years after a few days home trial, and this has never caused a
> problem. To be fair, I've spent the same or more money on actual
> purchases, so the dealers know that there's an eventual sale in it -
> I'm not just a 'tyre kicker'. I don't think I've ever taken more than
> a week to decide that something just wasn't going to work, but any
> dealer I've ever bought from has had a 30-day return policy - and not
> with any 'restocking' charges.
> --

I too have bought and auditioned lots of equipment from my dealer over a
long time, on one occassion taken home his demo Sequerra 1 FM tuner for a
weekend (while his store was closed) with no problems or reservations
whatsoever. However I agreed to have the tuner back in his store when he
re-opened Monday 10AM (and did). Yet I still would not either ask for his
floor demo MG20.1 for even a single week nor would I ask to get home (one
way or another) a brand new stock MG 20.1s for audition and perhaps only
then to decide to stay with my old speakers. I would not want to buy a new ?
MG 20.1 that (even) you had in your home for a single hour nor would I
expect the dealer to be without his floor model for a single week perhaps
causeing him to lose a sale to another dealer which did have a MG 20.1 on
site. My last word on this subject is as was my first, "neat trick if you
can do it".

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"When it comes to something that you believe, you then said any scientific
figures or measurements would not count, you have to be totally
subjective!

I call it double standard! So from now on, when people claim that they
can hear the difference between cables, amplifiers, you just cannot doubt
it because that is what you are doing in speakers!
"

There is no difference when testing amps/wire and speakers. Both are done
by listening alone and the only result of the test is to see if a
difference, any difference, can be spotted. This ability to spot a
difference depends mostly on the differences rising above an audible
threshold. With a distortion difference big enough to rise above the
threshold, two amps can be spotted. In speakers there are many
differences that almost always rise above the threshold, for example the
room interaction effects. When speakers are of a similar design and with
similar room interactions, etc.; the differences are harder to spot but
are still enough different to hear in testing. Same test, same standards,
same thresholds.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 10/10/04 12:04 AM, in article ckacc702949@news1.newsguy.com, "Georgie
Charles" <georgie.charles@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Lawrence
> I'm not sure many of these responses will have moved you forward much.
> Stewart Pinkerton makes a valid point about each of these speakers sounding
> different in different rooms, but nevertheless....
> I own Innersound Eros speakers and like them very much. In my view they
> manage the transition between electrostatic and transmission line better
> than the Martin Logan equivalents, though I think latest ML models have
> improved in that respect. I can also vouch for the quality of their
> after-sales service (and like Stewart, I'm in the UK, so geography is an
> issue). But you really do need to hear them both, even if you can't manage
> this simultaneously!

You are absolutely correct!

I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will find
that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill
in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be
rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe that
Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.

I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your
home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since the
transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer.

 

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On 10/10/04 10:58 AM, in article ckbimr0bsm@news1.newsguy.com, "B&D"
<bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will find
> that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
^^^^^^
Meant to say ...criticisms of the ML's and other elecrostatic hybrids ...

> relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill
> in the low end.
>Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be
> rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe that
> Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.