What's Windows Vista Worth? Play Guy's Guesstimating Game.

[smlong]

You Linux/Mac Microsoft doom-sayers are so funny.

I bet you guys were saying the same things about Win3.1, Win95, Win98, Win2k, and WinXp (and Microsoft) prior to their release that you are saying about Vista.

Once either Apple/OSXXS or Linux garner 10% of the retail user OS market, then maybe there will be a difference (IE - maybe they will matter).

 

[niz]

You Linux/Mac Microsoft doom-sayers are so funny.

I bet you guys were saying the same things about Win3.1, Win95, Win98, Win2k, and WinXp (and Microsoft) prior to their release that you are saying about Vista.

Once either Apple/OSXXS or Linux garner 10% of the retail user OS market, then maybe there will be a difference (IE - maybe they will matter).

I agree with you that more home users need to be made aware of Linux. thankfully, most people are open to or at least aware of OpenSource now through IE doing such a bad job it made it easy for Firefox to get a foothold.

Chances are Vista being so crappy will help Linux awareness quite a lot, although the problem is 90% of people aren't 'PC-aware' and just use what comes preloaded even if its junk, thats the biggest reason why 90% still use windows. That and the fact they're already familiar with it because chances are they also use it at work.

Why they're gonna choose to pay $300 for a Vista downgrade for a machine already running XP is a different matter though.

Microsoft will be able to sell Vista downgrade editions because we all know many consumers are also absolute sheep and have been conditioned to think new == better and higher cost == higher quality.

How many people stick with Vista after they've experienced it and don't either reinstall XP or move on to Linux is the real question.

 

[killer_roach]

Let's face it; Linux is still not ready for prime time. Joe Sixpack can't get proper video card drivers installed on a Linux distro; heck, I'm just about tearing my hair out doing it myself sometimes (granted, I think this might just be something to do with Fedora, but still, it's never anywhere near as easy as MacOS or Windows). And the performance is very uneven; while very fast for some things, Linux is also very slow in others. And I doubt the average user will deal with Linux's current significant disadvantages in gaming and media applications.

I've been putting Vista RC1 through its paces, and I'm having a hard time seeing where everybody is coming up with the idea that it is slow or unstable (yet to have a system crash in RC1, actually). To be honest, the interface itself is just as fast as XP on my machine (A64 3000+, 1GB RAM, GeForce 6600 256MB), and boots up in a comparable timeframe (might be just a bit faster, but can't really tell). Aero Glass looks great, and, apart from it not playing along well with GAIM, performs outstandingly now. However, what is right now very difficult for me is the third-party application and driver support in Vista. Most OpenGL games have rendering problems (may just be driver-related, but are rather significant), the drivers for my webcam don't work (they only have XP versions that don't work in Vista, and the company apparently no longer exists), and a few third-party applications (PeerGuardian, Media Player Classic, and Alcohol 120%) don't run properly in Vista (and, in the case of Alcohol, the version I have refuses to install, I'll see if an upgrade helps, but I doubt it). The experience that Vista provides is very good, but it doesn't play well with much of anything still. It's still in a state that I'd have to say is only a relatively solid beta, and far from an RC. It has a lot of promise, but it's still far from where it needs to be.

 

[mitch074]

to be frank, Linux systems have been, user-wise, crappy - until the past year or so. What happened?
- first, the 2.6 version of the Linux kernel. Much more supple and responsive, it now includes enough interesting stuff to make it 'set and forget': automatic modules loading, new device notification, etc. finally make it truly plug n play - not forgetting that new modules now integrate it much faster, leading to better hardware support.
- second, HP supporting and releasing source code for its whole range of printers - suddenly, those got plug n play too (I can testify of this: I plugged a small Deskjet on a USB port, and instantly my system detected it, installed cups, downloaded and installed the printer's driver, and had it running - I needed a single click to accept/deny the install procedure)
- third, X finally getting modular: this allows all sorts of experiments and yet easy install (X can now autodetect the mouse, the graphic card's driver and the display's resolution, and it contains accelerated drivers for many current chips built-in)
- fourth, the free desktop project and Linux Standard Base: it's gotten way easier to run software on a Linux system
- fifth, OS-agnostic softwares having reached mainstream: Openoffice.org 2.0, Firefox, Thunderbird.

In fact, since the beginning of 2005, the Linux desktop has very quickly turned from a nerd's interface into a very sexy and intuitive GUI: frankly, you can simply forget about the command line now - however it's still there and as powerful as ever.

It's gotten so good that now, if you connect your iPod to it, it will detect it, install an iTune replacement, and allow you to use it with hardly any intervention from you.

 

[smlong]

How many people stick with Vista after they've experienced it and don't either reinstall XP or move on to Linux is the real question.

So, let's say (hypothetically) that tomorrow 99% of people in the world (including businesses) start using Linux. What would you find to bitch about then? 🙂

 

[smlong]

Let's face it; Linux is still not ready for prime time. Joe Sixpack can't get proper video card drivers installed on a Linux distro; heck, I'm just about tearing my hair out doing it myself sometimes (granted, I think this might just be something to do with Fedora, but still, it's never anywhere near as easy as MacOS or Windows). And the performance is very uneven; while very fast for some things, Linux is also very slow in others. And I doubt the average user will deal with Linux's current significant disadvantages in gaming and media applications.

I've been putting Vista RC1 through its paces, and I'm having a hard time seeing where everybody is coming up with the idea that it is slow or unstable (yet to have a system crash in RC1, actually). To be honest, the interface itself is just as fast as XP on my machine (A64 3000+, 1GB RAM, GeForce 6600 256MB), and boots up in a comparable timeframe (might be just a bit faster, but can't really tell).

I agree with you entirely. As I said in a previous post, Vista RC1 runs just as well on my current XP box as XP does. My system is just a P4 2.53 Ghz, 1 Gig of Ram, and GF4 Ti4200.

 

[xXDracoXx]

What I've seen with XP is that Microsoft is always a step late. Beta release is really Alpha, RC works like a Beta and SP1 is the true RC 😛

edit: typos

 

[cruiseoveride]

That was a good read,
Lots of interesting new features espeacially on the security side, very nice indeed. With that type of security who need Linux/Unix anymore.
I found something interesting, which I'm sure the Workshop Manager at my old job will start crying when he sees...

If you ever had to repair such a machine, then you need recovery keys.

The hell he used to go throught to get customers to give him the passwords to fix the machine, and 99% percent wont have any idea about what he was talking about, and that was just a login password. (At an OEM supplier).

I really enjoyed that articlie, hats off. to the author.

However I developed a rather bitter taste in the mouth after reading the conclusion.

My final justification for saying Vista is worthwhile is that my figure of $245 is for one year, whereas Vista should last at least three years.

Though the price sounds descent for a Microsoft product, that conclusion put me off from purchasing Vista. Sounds like Microsoft paid the author to write that conclusion.

$245/year? should last three years? Sounds a little flakey to me.

Windows XP has gone strong for 5 years now. And I must say its become quite a mature operatin system as years gone by.
Is there something I am missing, or is Vista designed to run for only 3yrs?

There is 1 factor that was not included in the article.
Peace of Mind
Peace of Mind that on Vista, 1+1 will equal 2 7days a week, 365days a year, again and again and again.

This factor can not be added to the article as this feature is Priceless....

And for this reason my office will continue to use Linux and BSD as we have developed that peace of mind. We have faith that if any of our protocls fail it is for a hardware reason only.
The peace of mind that has been developed at the company I work for has translated to an uptime of 99.1% for IPX switching systems in Australia, Poland and Canada.

It will take a long time for Microsoft to "truly" gain the trust of the Mission Critical IT Sector.

 

[qukza]

You Linux/Mac Microsoft doom-sayers are so funny. I bet you guys were saying the same things about Win3.1, Win95, Win98, Win2k, and WinXp (and Microsoft) prior to their release that you are saying about Vista. Once either Apple/OSXXS or Linux garner 10% of the retail user OS market, then maybe there will be a difference (IE - maybe they will matter).

Well, I'm a long time Windows user and still using W2K in a dual boot configuration with Suse. I never really used W95/W95 etc much. Moved straight from W3.1 ti NT3.51 in September '95 then onto the NT4 in early 1996. At the time NT4, even the beta, was just fantastic (at least if you weren't on a laptop). If you were coming from W3.1 or W95 beta it was night and day in terms of reliability, performance etc. W2K was a nice upgrade. I think WXP added a few additional improvements but the price went way up. I don't see that one got much for the money out of XP. What's funny is that they practically gave away NT4 and W2K (I got sent my copy of W2K from Microsoft for free for sending in a couple of bug reports as part of the beta program) but I would have paid the $129 for the W2K upgrade without complaint. $200 or whatever for WXP? That's like dropping a bunch of hard cash on a glorified service pack and they added all sorts of interface junk in to appeal to computer-challenged. WXP was for mass market that had been stuck on W95/98/ME. Vista just gets worse. And a lot of the core under the hood stuff that made NT so good originally just seems to have been sacrificed. Maybe I'm not typical but I sense that there are a fair number of formerly commited Windows users who are disenhanted with where Microsoft is going. On the other hand I'm not sure the Linux Desktop is ready for broader use but it evoling fast and it is much more credible as an alternative that a lot of people that it didn't have a year or so ago. I think this trend is only going to continue. The technology is pretty mature so asking people to shell out big money for minor improvements and interface junk is just going to get harder when the competition is proving an comparable OS plus applications for free.

 

[Windaria]

Niz... exactly. In fact, even when using XP I tend to use the Windows Classic theme just because the menus in XP and everything wasted too many pixels on fluff. I can't imagine how much worse it will be with Aero.

In the end, however, the value of Vista comes down to comparison. Microsoft has a huge economy of scale, and yet you can buy OSX for $129 or a 5 pack for $199. Now, I have 3 computers at home, one of them a domain controller. Are you telling me that it would cost $1,200 to upgrade my home to the most 'advanced' edition?

That is not only insane, it is stark raving mad.

Thank you very much, I'll be using Linux. The only problem is that I will have to dual-boot with Vista just so I can run Office and a couple other aps that I am sure that people will expect me to have just because I tend to work in places that use Windows, and that irritates me.

I just wish that open office could handle document formatting and bullets in any reasonable way (you can't adjust the space inbetween bullets and text, and for that matter bullets and the left margin anywhere near as well as you can in Office).

I wish Microsoft would just release one version and charge $150 for it, and maybe $300 for a 5 pack. You would see piracy evaporate in a huge way simply because then it would be REASONABLY affordable to actually buy Windows.

With the new release scheme? Sadly enough, it makes Windows even more of an insane ripoff joke.

Then again I still use 2000 simply because why upgrade to XP? I don't dwell on the OS features, the OS is nothing more than something that lets me run the applications that I want to on my computer and enables me to network with other computers. Even though I use XP at work I have never once felt like I was missing out on anything.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD YOU CAN BUY A COMPUTER FOR LESS THAN VISTA ULTIMATE, AND THEN YOU ACTUALLY GET SOMETHING THAT COST MONEY TO MANUFACTURE EACH INDIVIDUAL TIME, INSTEAD OF SOMETHING THAT IS MADE ONCE AND THEN DUPLICATED AS MANY TIMES AS DESIRED!!!

That's insane.

 

[cruiseoveride]

With the new release scheme? Sadly enough, it makes Windows even more of an insane ripoff joke.

I couldnt have said it better

If a Ferrari cost $200 000.00, then why should the fuel to run it cost 3x more than it.

Yes, The OS, is nothing but the fuel, and should only be a minimilistic cost when implementing IT solutions.

I agree with the OpenOffice issues, I too get rather frustrated, but I have managed ti find my way around it over the years.

Sun should put more effort into OpenOffice, as this will help more people to migrate to an Open Platform.

By the way, you can run Office 2003 through CrossOver Office legally on Linux.

 

[mitch074]

well, about Openoffice, Sun does what it can: dedicate developers. If you want to improve it, you're free to try your had at programming. Or at the very least, do some bug reporting.

Don't forget to try more recent versions: bullets and numbered lists get steady improvements in recent releases (try again with 2.0.4 RC1...).

 

[Windaria]

Yeah... they are slowly improving it, but I am a Technical Writer by profession, and bullets are a HUGE issue (especially coupling different bullet levels or indents to styles, etc), and Open Office just doesn't handle it well yet... and anything less than 100% perfection does not work with my clients. Oh well.

The sad thing about this was that back in the days of Windows 2000 I was a decent fan of Windows. It did what I wanted, it wasn't intrusive, and you could pick up 2K Pro for about $100 or $200, depending on where you looked.

That was totally reasonable to me.

Then came XP... XP Home cripled anyone who used a home network... and they often had to pay for the version of Windows that came on their computer, as well as a copy of XP pro to upgrade for the VERY NECESSARY network functions for those with a home network... and then came Activation.

And that was when I learned about Software as a Service... and it sounds as if MS may carry that even further with Vista.

I am sorry, but I just can't respect Windows anymore. My OS is NOT A FREAKING SERVICE.

 

[niz]

I dunno much about Linux but I'd like to know more....Are most games/programs compatible with it? This is really the only reason I haven't deepy looked into Linux because I don't know what kind of compatibility it has. If someone wants to shed some light, maybe you can convert me! 🙂

Well, many of the 'big' games Doom, Quake, unreal tournament etc. all have native ports to linux (freely downloadable if they're not already on the disk) so work perfectly under Linux (often at faster/higher framrates than windows).

For games that don't have native Linux ports, there is Cedega, which is a commerical version of wine+directx. Most but not all windows games run on it with varying degrees of success. They're always working to improve it and they target all the most popular games first. Most of the most popular windows games work fine under it.

Actually I read a post from one of the wine devs a whila ago that said they'd done most of the windows framework so now could focus more on DirectX support in Wine itself. Presumably at some point Wine will catch up with Cedega in terms of functionality and we'll all have free Linux compatabilty for most windows games too.

 

[qukza]

Yeah... they are slowly improving it, but I am a Technical Writer by profession, and bullets are a HUGE issue (especially coupling different bullet levels or indents to styles, etc), and Open Office just doesn't handle it well yet... and anything less than 100% perfection does not work with my clients.

Of course Word hasn't been that great for technical writers either. Remember the horrible footnote bug that existed in all versions of Office until Office 2000 and not even sure they'd completely fixed it in that version. Maybe it's still isn't completely fixed. Ugh. Another example of a product going through endless costly upgrade cycles with a basic feature that remained broken over a period of a decade or more.

 

[Plekto]

Thank you very much, I'll be using Linux. The only problem is that I will have to dual-boot with Vista just so I can run Office and a couple other aps that I am sure that people will expect me to have just because I tend to work in places that use Windows, and that irritates me.
****

You can get Office for Mac. It works great, in fact. The thing is that people for years have always liked PC for cost, and Mac for OS - but with this last release(and it is UNIX, btw, albeit the world's fanciest version of it - heh) it runs on Intel chips. All Macintosh computers now are running Intel chips and they just released a new vrsion of Bootcamp that finally does allow for dual-boot. Win XP/2K for your games, Mac OS for everything else - and honestly, it does EVERYTHING ELSE. Yet, there are a few apps you need PC - well, presto - reboot and enjoy.

The next version, though, is amazing. No more Apple hardware.

From an IT perspective:
Apple/Unix - $60 a copy when bought in bulk. No hardware upgrades required. Legacy apps supported via XP or 2K or NT on second partition. No registration, nanny-ware, virtually no viruses and mal-ware to deal with for normal applications. Versions of every major product for office use available for the same price(or better, since Apple gives massive discounts to businesses and educational institutions).

And all using the same hardware you have. You don't even have to add memory to any of them. Works with your ancient laptops and your servers. You can even keep your SQL server running windows 2K/NT if you want.

20 computers. 12 PCs, 4 laptops, 4 server machines. One person to manage it all. No calling home, no yearly fees. Just an OS that you use as you wish. Also, dead-simple to repair and fix. Just drop in a new OS folder and rearrange a few things(15 minutes tops) and presto - back in business.

Total cost to upgrade/install new OS for 20 machines? $800.
***
Windows -
16 copies of Vista. 4 new laptops(since upgrading older laptops isn't an option). 16 machines need new memory and a few need new power supplies, video cards, hard drives, and so on. 4 servers require the full-blown mega version of Vista(OUCH).

New firewall software, big changes to the servers, new version of SQL if you use it... new versions of most of your apps or upgrades(that is if you bought legitimate copies of everything for every computer, which most businesses don't)

And you need two peolpe to manage 20 computers and the network. Horrendous phase-in schedule and back-end work.

Total cost to upgrade 20 machines? $20K or more, plus all the nanny-ware and the extra person you pay salary to.

***
DUH. Microsoft should be giving their OS away for nearly free, because the second that you can run Mac and PC on the same box without any upgrade(and UNIX if you want to go for seamless tri-boot), people will ditch them in a heartbeat. Cheaper, faster, company that's not burning their bridges... Mostly, though... cheaper. And just look at Wal-Mart. Cheaper is the #1 factor in business.

Me? I have a copy of XP Pro I bought a few months ago. It will serve me for years while at the same time I run Mac OS or Unix and phase our my legacy apps.(90% of which are games). In five years, none of my old games will be worth playing anyways or will have UNIX/Mac ports of them(like Unreal Tournament). I'm never touching Vista since every last app and game for the next five years will have to support XP anyways or loose massive potential sales.

Cost to me will be a paltry $100 or less. And Apple is a great company to work with as a business owner or customer compared to Microsoft. Customer service is worlds better than a decade ago.

 

[Windaria]

Yeah... they are slowly improving it, but I am a Technical Writer by profession, and bullets are a HUGE issue (especially coupling different bullet levels or indents to styles, etc), and Open Office just doesn't handle it well yet... and anything less than 100% perfection does not work with my clients.

Of course Word hasn't been that great for technical writers either. Remember the horrible footnote bug that existed in all versions of Office until Office 2000 and not even sure they'd completely fixed it in that version. Maybe it's still isn't completely fixed. Ugh. Another example of a product going through endless costly upgrade cycles with a basic feature that remained broken over a period of a decade or more.

True, but at least you can control where each element appears horizontally on the page, with a reasonable degree of success, something that I have yet to get from Open Office. That and, for internal documentation, it is still the industry standard. <shrugs>

Now... as for office for Mac. I would rather pluck out my eyes, impale them on a pencil, and toss it into the ceiling so I could look down on myself. I will give credit where credit is due, and they have their pricing structure right, but otherwise I have no respect for Macs.

 

[qukza]

All Macintosh computers now are running Intel chips and they just released a new vrsion of Bootcamp that finally does allow for dual-boot.... Me? I have a copy of XP Pro I bought a few months ago. It will serve me for years while at the same time I run Mac OS or Unix and phase our my legacy apps.(90% of which are games).

The other option to dual boot is to run Windows apps in a virtual machine on OSX or Linux. The Parallels Virtual machine software runs $50-$80. The other option is VMware. They are in beta with the OSX version of their software. It will probably cost a bit more but you can create a VM machine and then use their free VMPlayer to run in on whatever, wherever. You can download the player and try out various flavors of Linux right now. The nice thing about running Windows as a VM is that you can create a VM just strip out a lot of the services and junk so it is lean and fast. And bonus features: security and easy to "reinstall" from a VM file backup.

Not sure Xen is ready for the rest of us but that's another option that will be available on the Linux desktop soon. When VMware and Xen get their act together and the hypervisor interface technology gets embedded in the Linux kernel things will get even more interesting.

 

[mitch074]

there is also the solution of running Office on Wine... At least, it uses the same binaries than the Windows version of Office - while Mac's version had to be rewritten from scratch due to humongously pervasive porting bugs.

 

[c4onastick]

Amen brother. Bout time some one said it. WindowsXP is so rediculously power hungry now that I can't even imagine having to deal with Aero and Vista. The more I use linux and OSX the more I like the idea of open source software. Things that suck, (because they were developed by a programmer at M$ who had 'read' about how end customers used their machines) never float. They're immediately replaced by a better one. Its capitalism, well really free-market style, at its best. Survival of the fittest, if it is sub-par it gets trampled by the things that can do it better. Take the x windows environment in linux, for example. I can think of at least a half dozen window managers right now, that were all developed because someone said after using another one, "Woah man, this sucks." Since M$ can (and does) play pretty good business hardball, they're still in there, otherwise I think that computational darwinism should have caught up to them by now. Either way, they're living on borrowed time. Right here we have a forum full of real XP/NT/Whatever users that are putting it out there loud and clear that the 570 "features" aren't worth a dime to us. And what did we all learn in Econ 101? The customer is No. 1. If you don't deliver, they'll go somewhere else. Its too bad that so many of us can't (myself included), darn games are holding me back.