Here's a thought, Microsoft...how about lowering the cost of your ridiculously overpriced hard drives so that people might actually buy them??? Or how about not making a console without a hard drive in the first place? I have ALWAYS thought that was a stupid move. You put hard drives in the original xbox, and it was great, so why in the hell would you take a backwards step like that??? It never made sense to me.
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SteelCity1981
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[citation][nom]belardo[/nom]Er... no. You do not understand manufacturing. A 4GB Flash Card costs about $1~2 to make (SDHC 4gb sells for $8~12 and 16GB are hitting $25!! My first 64mb flash key costs me $65! 6+ years ago)A 20GB HD would costs more to make SPECIAL than buying 60GB standard drives. All the mechanics are there, its the platters and value that adjust for the price. And HD manufactures are not making 20GB platters.Pricing on 2.5" notebook drives$110 = 1000GB$ 60 = 500GB$ 45 = 250GB$ 40 = 160GB$ 40 = 120GB$ 40 = 80GB$ 20 = 16GB Flash Drive$ 10 = 4GB Flash DriveNotice that at $40, thats the end of making a HD any cheaper. Its not worth it. They CAN'T make a 20 or 40GB HD if they wanted too, without wasting millions on retooling for OLDER design.This is MS's failure to test their own software with their OWN Hardware... and creating a standard XBOX without an HD so they can sell the unit at a price point.Easy solution, buy $40 HD and stick it into the Xbox SLim.... they take normal drives now, don't they?[/citation]
Er maybe you don't understand the fact that Micrsoft has been having other hardware companies specially designing their hardware on the 360 for years now and if what you are saying was the case then the Xbox 360 would actually be going up in price instead of down due to the fact that these hardware vendors have to keep on producing a product based on outdated hardware. I mean the smae argument you are presenting would be the same as saying it's going to cost more for Microsoft to buy ATI gpu chips as time goes buy due to the fact that ATI has stopped making GPU chips based on the Radeon x19xx series year ago in which the XBox 360 GPU is based on, but that isn't the case. Which would be no diff then Micrsoft asking a hardware vendor to produce a 20gb hard drive for them like they have continue to ask other hardware vendors to do like AMD is continuing to do for Microsoft with the Xbox 360 console. The numbers you are producing only implies to consumor products in the crop world it's a diff story.
Er maybe you don't understand the fact that Micrsoft has been having other hardware companies specially designing their hardware on the 360 for years now and if what you are saying was the case then the Xbox 360 would actually be going up in price instead of down due to the fact that these hardware vendors have to keep on producing a product based on outdated hardware. I mean the smae argument you are presenting would be the same as saying it's going to cost more for Microsoft to buy ATI gpu chips as time goes buy due to the fact that ATI has stopped making GPU chips based on the Radeon x19xx series year ago in which the XBox 360 GPU is based on, but that isn't the case. Which would be no diff then Micrsoft asking a hardware vendor to produce a 20gb hard drive for them like they have continue to ask other hardware vendors to do like AMD is continuing to do for Microsoft with the Xbox 360 console. The numbers you are producing only implies to consumor products in the crop world it's a diff story.
belardo
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[citation][nom]deecrutch[/nom]Here's a thought, Microsoft...how about lowering the cost of your ridiculously overpriced hard drives so that people might actually buy them??? Or how about not making a console without a hard drive in the first place? It never made sense to me.[/citation]
It's called profit. They wanted to sell a model for $100 less. So no Hard drive for you. Remember the marketing and fanboys comparing the 360 to the PS3? "The XBOX is $300 cheaper" blah blah. Meanwhile, the more usable 20GB 360 was $400 compared to the $500 20GB PS3. For that $100, you got the best Blu-Ray player on the market (upgradeable to 3D soon), wireless controllers and WIFI (A $100 option for 360) so in the real world, the PS3 gave you more for the money.
If you bought the $400 360-20, you'd have spent $120+ for the 60GB HD upgrade. which again was a rip off.
Even with the 360-Midget, you have to buy ONLY MS-HD 250 for $130 (MS loves $130) as your only option, period. Could MS made the 360s use ANY HD, yes. Did they, no... they make at least $60 profit off each upgrade. SONY makes $0 off user HD upgrades. All the original 360 owners are stuck with the 120GB upgrade drives as the BIOS doesn't support anything bigger.
So yes, MS expected to get a large number of HD-LESS sales from people (parents) wanting to save $100~120. Then when some features don't work and they see some friends with HD-Models in use, they'll go back to mom & dad "I need a Hard drive! Waaaaaaa".
Thats a good evil plan that worked.
Its all about money.
It's called profit. They wanted to sell a model for $100 less. So no Hard drive for you. Remember the marketing and fanboys comparing the 360 to the PS3? "The XBOX is $300 cheaper" blah blah. Meanwhile, the more usable 20GB 360 was $400 compared to the $500 20GB PS3. For that $100, you got the best Blu-Ray player on the market (upgradeable to 3D soon), wireless controllers and WIFI (A $100 option for 360) so in the real world, the PS3 gave you more for the money.
If you bought the $400 360-20, you'd have spent $120+ for the 60GB HD upgrade. which again was a rip off.
Even with the 360-Midget, you have to buy ONLY MS-HD 250 for $130 (MS loves $130) as your only option, period. Could MS made the 360s use ANY HD, yes. Did they, no... they make at least $60 profit off each upgrade. SONY makes $0 off user HD upgrades. All the original 360 owners are stuck with the 120GB upgrade drives as the BIOS doesn't support anything bigger.
So yes, MS expected to get a large number of HD-LESS sales from people (parents) wanting to save $100~120. Then when some features don't work and they see some friends with HD-Models in use, they'll go back to mom & dad "I need a Hard drive! Waaaaaaa".
Thats a good evil plan that worked.
Its all about money.
belardo
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- Nov 23, 2008
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[citation][nom]steelcity1981[/nom]Er maybe you don't understand the fact that Micrsoft has been having other hardware companies specially designing their hardware on the 360 for years now and if what you are saying was the case then the Xbox 360 would actually be going up in price instead of down due to the fact that these hardware vendors have to keep on producing a product based on outdated hardware.[/citation]
When you get out of school, take a course on manufacturing and business when you go to college. Then you may understand how things are made. I don't know all the specifics that goes into the 360, but its generalized.
1) We're talking about the console... it was designed about 5 years ago. Its been re-designed over the years to REDUCE COSTS as technology permits. That is why the new 360 is $300 and obviously better in every way over the original $300~400 core/20GB models. *IF* MS kept building the 360 today as they did 5 years ago, it would still costs the same and MS would be making less money.
Also, with the old 360 chassis being made for so long, it costs a bit less overtime because theres no re-tooling - mass production reduces overall costs.
ie: The more a product is made, the less it costs. It might have costs MS about $10,000~30,000 to build the each of the various pre-production prototypes.
2) These "companies" aren't designing anything, they are manufactures such as: Flextronics, Wistron, and Celestica. Microsoft designed the 360 hardware, they give the specs to those companies which build to order. Just like Apple gives FOXCONN the iPhone specs and say "build it". Again, generalization as I'm not including all the logistics involved.
[citation]I mean the smae argument you are presenting would be the same as saying it's going to cost more for Microsoft to buy ATI gpu chips as time goes buy due to the fact that ATI has stopped making GPU chips based on the Radeon x19xx series year ago in which the XBox 360 GPU is based on, but that isn't the case.[/citation]
Have you ever heard of a phrase called "FAIL"?
3) That is NOT the case. As the 360's GPU is based off the X1900 GPU, but its not the same chip. The 360's GPU is the same 5 years ago and is IN PRODUCTION and been die-shrunked 1-2 times is why it costs less. You can't die-shrink a 20GB 2.5" hard drive.
4) Yes, ATI quit making 1900, 2000 and 3000 series GPUs a long time ago, they are no longer viable or needed as newer and cheaper tech such as the 5000s are available. Again, the 360 is a console and its tech MUST remain the same, even if the manufacturing is enhanced for lower costs.
[citation]Which would be no diff then Micrsoft asking a hardware vendor to produce a 20gb hard drive for them like they have continue to ask other hardware vendors to do like AMD is continuing to do for Microsoft with the Xbox 360 console.[/citation]
5) Hard drives aren't CPUs or PSU or Optical drives. MS has no control of HD manufacturing. Yes, they can ORDER 20GB HD, but it would be very stupid and costly. As stated, the tooling for 5year old HD tech is no longer used. A typical 2.5" HD to today uses 9.5mm housing which limits the drive to 500~640GB. This is a 1~2 platter design.
So the HD manufacture uses 2 platters which have 125~130GB per side x 4 = 500GB. Then to make a 250GB model, they take out a platter - reducing costs.
To make the 120GB model which uses ALL the tech of the 500GB model, they only use one head and prep 1 side of a platter.
The casing, the motor, the heads, the circuit board, controller chips, SATA connectors, costs the same. Therefore, they cannot make a uber cheap $10 20GB drive your dreaming about. $40 retail ($25~30 from manufacture) is as cheap as they can make them. THAT *IS* the cut-off. That is why I gave you pricing of the 80/120/160/250GB HDs costing about $40... So the cheapest a manufacture could do is take a 120GB HD and BIOS-limit it the unit down at 20GB.
Who the hell would want a 20GB HD in a modern xbox?
So either get an ebay used xbox drive for $10~50. Or a new one for $130.
It is within MS's ability to upgrade the HD-LESS 360 to 8~16GB, but some games & features want specifically a hard drive. Don't count on MS doing this. They want to make a nice profit (and they do) and upgrading the 4GB to 16GB of flash memory costs them more money ($1~2 vs $10~12) per unit.
[citation] The numbers you are producing only implies to consumor products in the crop world it's a diff story.[/citation]
6) Gee, really. They were there to show that there is a cut-off for manufacturing. Big deal, MS pays about $20~25 to put drive into their consoles, not hard to figure out. Doesn't change the fact that nobody makes 20/40/60GB HDs. 120~160GB is the smallest being made, the rest is old stuff.
Complain to MS for bending your arm to buy their brand of HD only and raping you in the process. They'll nod, say thanks and laugh at you.
Nobody made you buy the sub-standard model or any console for that matter.
When you get out of school, take a course on manufacturing and business when you go to college. Then you may understand how things are made. I don't know all the specifics that goes into the 360, but its generalized.
1) We're talking about the console... it was designed about 5 years ago. Its been re-designed over the years to REDUCE COSTS as technology permits. That is why the new 360 is $300 and obviously better in every way over the original $300~400 core/20GB models. *IF* MS kept building the 360 today as they did 5 years ago, it would still costs the same and MS would be making less money.
Also, with the old 360 chassis being made for so long, it costs a bit less overtime because theres no re-tooling - mass production reduces overall costs.
ie: The more a product is made, the less it costs. It might have costs MS about $10,000~30,000 to build the each of the various pre-production prototypes.
2) These "companies" aren't designing anything, they are manufactures such as: Flextronics, Wistron, and Celestica. Microsoft designed the 360 hardware, they give the specs to those companies which build to order. Just like Apple gives FOXCONN the iPhone specs and say "build it". Again, generalization as I'm not including all the logistics involved.
[citation]I mean the smae argument you are presenting would be the same as saying it's going to cost more for Microsoft to buy ATI gpu chips as time goes buy due to the fact that ATI has stopped making GPU chips based on the Radeon x19xx series year ago in which the XBox 360 GPU is based on, but that isn't the case.[/citation]
Have you ever heard of a phrase called "FAIL"?
3) That is NOT the case. As the 360's GPU is based off the X1900 GPU, but its not the same chip. The 360's GPU is the same 5 years ago and is IN PRODUCTION and been die-shrunked 1-2 times is why it costs less. You can't die-shrink a 20GB 2.5" hard drive.
4) Yes, ATI quit making 1900, 2000 and 3000 series GPUs a long time ago, they are no longer viable or needed as newer and cheaper tech such as the 5000s are available. Again, the 360 is a console and its tech MUST remain the same, even if the manufacturing is enhanced for lower costs.
[citation]Which would be no diff then Micrsoft asking a hardware vendor to produce a 20gb hard drive for them like they have continue to ask other hardware vendors to do like AMD is continuing to do for Microsoft with the Xbox 360 console.[/citation]
5) Hard drives aren't CPUs or PSU or Optical drives. MS has no control of HD manufacturing. Yes, they can ORDER 20GB HD, but it would be very stupid and costly. As stated, the tooling for 5year old HD tech is no longer used. A typical 2.5" HD to today uses 9.5mm housing which limits the drive to 500~640GB. This is a 1~2 platter design.
So the HD manufacture uses 2 platters which have 125~130GB per side x 4 = 500GB. Then to make a 250GB model, they take out a platter - reducing costs.
To make the 120GB model which uses ALL the tech of the 500GB model, they only use one head and prep 1 side of a platter.
The casing, the motor, the heads, the circuit board, controller chips, SATA connectors, costs the same. Therefore, they cannot make a uber cheap $10 20GB drive your dreaming about. $40 retail ($25~30 from manufacture) is as cheap as they can make them. THAT *IS* the cut-off. That is why I gave you pricing of the 80/120/160/250GB HDs costing about $40... So the cheapest a manufacture could do is take a 120GB HD and BIOS-limit it the unit down at 20GB.
Who the hell would want a 20GB HD in a modern xbox?
So either get an ebay used xbox drive for $10~50. Or a new one for $130.
It is within MS's ability to upgrade the HD-LESS 360 to 8~16GB, but some games & features want specifically a hard drive. Don't count on MS doing this. They want to make a nice profit (and they do) and upgrading the 4GB to 16GB of flash memory costs them more money ($1~2 vs $10~12) per unit.
[citation] The numbers you are producing only implies to consumor products in the crop world it's a diff story.[/citation]
6) Gee, really. They were there to show that there is a cut-off for manufacturing. Big deal, MS pays about $20~25 to put drive into their consoles, not hard to figure out. Doesn't change the fact that nobody makes 20/40/60GB HDs. 120~160GB is the smallest being made, the rest is old stuff.
Complain to MS for bending your arm to buy their brand of HD only and raping you in the process. They'll nod, say thanks and laugh at you.
Nobody made you buy the sub-standard model or any console for that matter.
belardo
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- Nov 23, 2008
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Yeah... but the problem is, the AA titles are going ONLY to consoles and sometimes we get BAD ports (UT3 / GTA4). How many MS game titles are Xbox exclusive? vs Windows and Xbox? So even MS wants games to die on the PC. Which means future gaming GPUs are in danger... a $400 graphics card is silly if there are only 1-2 games that can ACTUALLY use it.
I play games on a 4670 in 1920x1200, it does fine. I'm looking at the ATI 6700 series as its replacement as it better be equal to or better than the 5830 for $100~$125.
But I feel that a PS3 is in my near future. It has blu-ray and 3D blu-ray support, and I don't own a BR player yet anyway. Might as well kill 2 birds with one stone and save on connectors, etc.
I play games on a 4670 in 1920x1200, it does fine. I'm looking at the ATI 6700 series as its replacement as it better be equal to or better than the 5830 for $100~$125.
But I feel that a PS3 is in my near future. It has blu-ray and 3D blu-ray support, and I don't own a BR player yet anyway. Might as well kill 2 birds with one stone and save on connectors, etc.
belardo
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Due to error in my coding and no EDIT button, a reprint for easier reading.
[citation][nom]steelcity1981[/nom]Er maybe you don't understand the fact that Micrsoft has been having other hardware companies specially designing their hardware on the 360 for years now and if what you are saying was the case then the Xbox 360 would actually be going up in price instead of down due to the fact that these hardware vendors have to keep on producing a product based on outdated hardware.[/citation]
When you get out of school, take a course on manufacturing and business when you go to college. Then you may understand how things are made. I don't know all the specifics that goes into the 360, but its generalized.
1) We're talking about the console... it was designed about 5 years ago. Its been re-designed over the years to REDUCE COSTS as technology permits. That is why the new 360 is $300 and obviously better in every way over the original $300~400 core/20GB models. *IF* MS kept building the 360 today as they did 5 years ago, it would still costs the same and MS would be making less money.
Also, with the old 360 chassis being made for so long, it costs a bit less overtime because theres no re-tooling - mass production reduces overall costs.
ie: The more a product is made, the less it costs. It might have costs MS about $10,000~30,000 to build the each of the various pre-production prototypes.
2) These "companies" aren't designing anything, they are manufactures such as: Flextronics, Wistron, and Celestica. Microsoft designed the 360 hardware, they give the specs to those companies which build to order. Just like Apple gives FOXCONN the iPhone specs and say "build it". Again, generalization as I'm not including all the logistics involved.
I mean the smae argument you are presenting would be the same as saying it's going to cost more for Microsoft to buy ATI gpu chips as time goes buy due to the fact that ATI has stopped making GPU chips based on the Radeon x19xx series year ago in which the XBox 360 GPU is based on, but that isn't the case.
Have you ever heard of a phrase called "FAIL"?
3) That is NOT the case. As the 360's GPU is based off the X1900 GPU, but its not the same chip. The 360's GPU is the same 5 years ago and is IN PRODUCTION and been die-shrunked 1-2 times is why it costs less. You can't die-shrink a 20GB 2.5" hard drive.
4) Yes, ATI quit making 1900, 2000 and 3000 series GPUs a long time ago, they are no longer viable or needed as newer and cheaper tech such as the 5000s are available. Again, the 360 is a console and its tech MUST remain the same, even if the manufacturing is enhanced for lower costs.
Which would be no diff then Micrsoft asking a hardware vendor to produce a 20gb hard drive for them like they have continue to ask other hardware vendors to do like AMD is continuing to do for Microsoft with the Xbox 360 console.
5) Hard drives aren't CPUs or PSU or Optical drives. MS has no control of HD manufacturing. Yes, they can ORDER 20GB HD, but it would be very stupid and costly. As stated, the tooling for 5year old HD tech is no longer used. A typical 2.5" HD to today uses 9.5mm housing which limits the drive to 500~640GB. This is a 1~2 platter design.
So the HD manufacture uses 2 platters which have 125~130GB per side x 4 = 500GB. Then to make a 250GB model, they take out a platter - reducing costs.
To make the 120GB model which uses ALL the tech of the 500GB model, they only use one head and 1 side of a platter. (The other platter isn't finished out)
The casing, the motor, the heads, the circuit board, controller chips, SATA connectors, costs the same. Therefore, they cannot make a uber cheap $10 20GB drive your dreaming about. $40 retail ($25~30 from manufacture) is as cheap as they can make them. THAT *IS* the cut-off. That is why I gave you pricing of the 80/120/160/250GB HDs costing about $40... So the cheapest a manufacture could do is take a 120GB HD and BIOS-limit it the unit down at 20GB.
Who the hell would want a 20GB HD in a modern xbox?
So either get an ebay used xbox drive for $10~50. Or a new one for $130.
It is within MS's ability to upgrade the HD-LESS 360 to 8~16GB, but some games & features want specifically a hard drive. Don't count on MS doing this. They want to make a nice profit (and they do) and upgrading the 4GB to 16GB of flash memory costs them more money ($1~2 vs $10~12) per unit.
The numbers you are producing only implies to consumor products in the crop world it's a diff story.
6) Gee, really. They were there to show that there is a cut-off for manufacturing. Big deal, MS pays about $20~25 to put drive into their consoles, not hard to figure out. Doesn't change the fact that nobody makes 20/40/60GB HDs. 120~160GB is the smallest being made, the rest is old stuff.
Complain to MS for bending your arm to buy their brand of HD only and raping you in the process. They'll nod, say thanks and laugh at you.
Nobody made you buy the sub-standard model or any console for that matter.
[citation][nom]steelcity1981[/nom]Er maybe you don't understand the fact that Micrsoft has been having other hardware companies specially designing their hardware on the 360 for years now and if what you are saying was the case then the Xbox 360 would actually be going up in price instead of down due to the fact that these hardware vendors have to keep on producing a product based on outdated hardware.[/citation]
When you get out of school, take a course on manufacturing and business when you go to college. Then you may understand how things are made. I don't know all the specifics that goes into the 360, but its generalized.
1) We're talking about the console... it was designed about 5 years ago. Its been re-designed over the years to REDUCE COSTS as technology permits. That is why the new 360 is $300 and obviously better in every way over the original $300~400 core/20GB models. *IF* MS kept building the 360 today as they did 5 years ago, it would still costs the same and MS would be making less money.
Also, with the old 360 chassis being made for so long, it costs a bit less overtime because theres no re-tooling - mass production reduces overall costs.
ie: The more a product is made, the less it costs. It might have costs MS about $10,000~30,000 to build the each of the various pre-production prototypes.
2) These "companies" aren't designing anything, they are manufactures such as: Flextronics, Wistron, and Celestica. Microsoft designed the 360 hardware, they give the specs to those companies which build to order. Just like Apple gives FOXCONN the iPhone specs and say "build it". Again, generalization as I'm not including all the logistics involved.
I mean the smae argument you are presenting would be the same as saying it's going to cost more for Microsoft to buy ATI gpu chips as time goes buy due to the fact that ATI has stopped making GPU chips based on the Radeon x19xx series year ago in which the XBox 360 GPU is based on, but that isn't the case.
Have you ever heard of a phrase called "FAIL"?
3) That is NOT the case. As the 360's GPU is based off the X1900 GPU, but its not the same chip. The 360's GPU is the same 5 years ago and is IN PRODUCTION and been die-shrunked 1-2 times is why it costs less. You can't die-shrink a 20GB 2.5" hard drive.
4) Yes, ATI quit making 1900, 2000 and 3000 series GPUs a long time ago, they are no longer viable or needed as newer and cheaper tech such as the 5000s are available. Again, the 360 is a console and its tech MUST remain the same, even if the manufacturing is enhanced for lower costs.
Which would be no diff then Micrsoft asking a hardware vendor to produce a 20gb hard drive for them like they have continue to ask other hardware vendors to do like AMD is continuing to do for Microsoft with the Xbox 360 console.
5) Hard drives aren't CPUs or PSU or Optical drives. MS has no control of HD manufacturing. Yes, they can ORDER 20GB HD, but it would be very stupid and costly. As stated, the tooling for 5year old HD tech is no longer used. A typical 2.5" HD to today uses 9.5mm housing which limits the drive to 500~640GB. This is a 1~2 platter design.
So the HD manufacture uses 2 platters which have 125~130GB per side x 4 = 500GB. Then to make a 250GB model, they take out a platter - reducing costs.
To make the 120GB model which uses ALL the tech of the 500GB model, they only use one head and 1 side of a platter. (The other platter isn't finished out)
The casing, the motor, the heads, the circuit board, controller chips, SATA connectors, costs the same. Therefore, they cannot make a uber cheap $10 20GB drive your dreaming about. $40 retail ($25~30 from manufacture) is as cheap as they can make them. THAT *IS* the cut-off. That is why I gave you pricing of the 80/120/160/250GB HDs costing about $40... So the cheapest a manufacture could do is take a 120GB HD and BIOS-limit it the unit down at 20GB.
Who the hell would want a 20GB HD in a modern xbox?
So either get an ebay used xbox drive for $10~50. Or a new one for $130.
It is within MS's ability to upgrade the HD-LESS 360 to 8~16GB, but some games & features want specifically a hard drive. Don't count on MS doing this. They want to make a nice profit (and they do) and upgrading the 4GB to 16GB of flash memory costs them more money ($1~2 vs $10~12) per unit.
The numbers you are producing only implies to consumor products in the crop world it's a diff story.
6) Gee, really. They were there to show that there is a cut-off for manufacturing. Big deal, MS pays about $20~25 to put drive into their consoles, not hard to figure out. Doesn't change the fact that nobody makes 20/40/60GB HDs. 120~160GB is the smallest being made, the rest is old stuff.
Complain to MS for bending your arm to buy their brand of HD only and raping you in the process. They'll nod, say thanks and laugh at you.
Nobody made you buy the sub-standard model or any console for that matter.
SteelCity1981
Distinguished
- Sep 16, 2010
- 249
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- 18,830
[quot]When you get out of school, take a course on manufacturing and business when you go to college. Then you may understand how things are made. I don't know all the specifics that goes into the 360, but its generalized.
1) We're talking about the console... it was designed about 5 years ago. Its been re-designed over the years to REDUCE COSTS as technology permits. That is why the new 360 is $300 and obviously better in every way over the original $300~400 core/20GB models. *IF* MS kept building the 360 today as they did 5 years ago, it would still costs the same and MS would be making less money.
Also, with the old 360 chassis being made for so long, it costs a bit less overtime because theres no re-tooling - mass production reduces overall costs.
ie: The more a product is made, the less it costs. It might have costs MS about $10,000~30,000 to build the each of the various pre-production prototypes.
2) These "companies" aren't designing anything, they are manufactures such as: Flextronics, Wistron, and Celestica. Microsoft designed the 360 hardware, they give the specs to those companies which build to order. Just like Apple gives FOXCONN the iPhone specs and say "build it". Again, generalization as I'm not including all the logistics involved.
I mean the smae argument you are presenting would be the same as saying it's going to cost more for Microsoft to buy ATI gpu chips as time goes buy due to the fact that ATI has stopped making GPU chips based on the Radeon x19xx series year ago in which the XBox 360 GPU is based on, but that isn't the case.
Have you ever heard of a phrase called "FAIL"?
3) That is NOT the case. As the 360's GPU is based off the X1900 GPU, but its not the same chip. The 360's GPU is the same 5 years ago and is IN PRODUCTION and been die-shrunked 1-2 times is why it costs less. You can't die-shrink a 20GB 2.5" hard drive.
4) Yes, ATI quit making 1900, 2000 and 3000 series GPUs a long time ago, they are no longer viable or needed as newer and cheaper tech such as the 5000s are available. Again, the 360 is a console and its tech MUST remain the same, even if the manufacturing is enhanced for lower costs.
Which would be no diff then Micrsoft asking a hardware vendor to produce a 20gb hard drive for them like they have continue to ask other hardware vendors to do like AMD is continuing to do for Microsoft with the Xbox 360 console.
5) Hard drives aren't CPUs or PSU or Optical drives. MS has no control of HD manufacturing. Yes, they can ORDER 20GB HD, but it would be very stupid and costly. As stated, the tooling for 5year old HD tech is no longer used. A typical 2.5" HD to today uses 9.5mm housing which limits the drive to 500~640GB. This is a 1~2 platter design.
So the HD manufacture uses 2 platters which have 125~130GB per side x 4 = 500GB. Then to make a 250GB model, they take out a platter - reducing costs.
To make the 120GB model which uses ALL the tech of the 500GB model, they only use one head and 1 side of a platter. (The other platter isn't finished out)
The casing, the motor, the heads, the circuit board, controller chips, SATA connectors, costs the same. Therefore, they cannot make a uber cheap $10 20GB drive your dreaming about. $40 retail ($25~30 from manufacture) is as cheap as they can make them. THAT *IS* the cut-off. That is why I gave you pricing of the 80/120/160/250GB HDs costing about $40... So the cheapest a manufacture could do is take a 120GB HD and BIOS-limit it the unit down at 20GB.
Who the hell would want a 20GB HD in a modern xbox?
So either get an ebay used xbox drive for $10~50. Or a new one for $130.
It is within MS's ability to upgrade the HD-LESS 360 to 8~16GB, but some games & features want specifically a hard drive. Don't count on MS doing this. They want to make a nice profit (and they do) and upgrading the 4GB to 16GB of flash memory costs them more money ($1~2 vs $10~12) per unit.
The numbers you are producing only implies to consumor products in the crop world it's a diff story.
6) Gee, really. They were there to show that there is a cut-off for manufacturing. Big deal, MS pays about $20~25 to put drive into their consoles, not hard to figure out. Doesn't change the fact that nobody makes 20/40/60GB HDs. 120~160GB is the smallest being made, the rest is old stuff.
Complain to MS for bending your arm to buy their brand of HD only and raping you in the process. They'll nod, say thanks and laugh at you.
Nobody made you buy the sub-standard model or any console for that matter.
..[/quote]
When i get out of school, what school did you go to? LOL i mean seriosuly do you or do you not understand you are talking about MICROSOFT. If you honeslty think that Microsoft couldn't call up a vendor and ask them to make a lot of 20gb hard drives for them at a low cost, then seriously you really don't understand the corp world.
Uh the Xbox 360 hasn't been re-designed, it uses the same hardware as it did 5 years ago, nice try. Furthermore the only diff between the xbox 5 years ago and today was the die shrink and improvments on the cooling. Understand again, improvments not re-design.
um yeah they are Microsoft didn't design the hardware LOL. You think Microsoft designs IBM cpus' or Xenon ATI based Gpus? They meet with these companies and the companies themselves produce the design based on exisiting hardware. Again the ATI hardware the xbox 360 uses is based upon the x1900 hardware an EXISTING hardware.
Have you heard of a phrase called Fail? It based on the same microarchtechure. I mean jesus it doesn't take a genuis to figure that the only diff between the gpu in the xbox and the gpu on a pc is that they are modified to fit in a diff structure. Still same design genuis.
LOL What? you think they have controls over gpu's? it's not about control it's about contract. Microsoft has no control over any hardware that is being produced on the X60, because everyone making the 360 is 3rd party vendors such as ibm and ATI. Again they have contracts with the hardware vendor that puts in the drives for Microsoft just like anyone else they are doing business with.
Wow you really are comparing angain consumor relations with corp relations big diff. Again the tech to make a 20gb hard drive would be cheaper so yes i am correct and it wouldn't cost the companies anything to get that produced using existing technology that these vendors can use. You act like they have to build a whole new seperate thing again to produce something already existing in which they don't. Do you not understand that it would cost the hardware vendors a few cents on the dollar to basicly put 20gb on a single platter now? Apprently you don't.
Who the hell wants a 4gb storage drive on an xbox 360 slim? What can you do with 4gb? nothing. This artical proves that. You obv prob don't own an xbox 360 or else you would know that. 20gb is good enough for basic storage like demos maps and downlaoded games.
First of all your wrong WD still prodcues 80gbs to the public. Second of all that still doesn't change the fact that the relation between micorsoft and it's vendors couldn't still produce a certain hardware config like they are with other hardware vendors.
Complain about me having to buy a new hard drive? you don't even make any sense where did I state anywhere that I had to buy a new hard drive. i stated that 20gb was good enough for basic storage. You aren't making any sense. What sub model i don't have the 360 slim, i had enough understanding to realize that you can't do anything on the 360 without at least 20gb.
1) We're talking about the console... it was designed about 5 years ago. Its been re-designed over the years to REDUCE COSTS as technology permits. That is why the new 360 is $300 and obviously better in every way over the original $300~400 core/20GB models. *IF* MS kept building the 360 today as they did 5 years ago, it would still costs the same and MS would be making less money.
Also, with the old 360 chassis being made for so long, it costs a bit less overtime because theres no re-tooling - mass production reduces overall costs.
ie: The more a product is made, the less it costs. It might have costs MS about $10,000~30,000 to build the each of the various pre-production prototypes.
2) These "companies" aren't designing anything, they are manufactures such as: Flextronics, Wistron, and Celestica. Microsoft designed the 360 hardware, they give the specs to those companies which build to order. Just like Apple gives FOXCONN the iPhone specs and say "build it". Again, generalization as I'm not including all the logistics involved.
I mean the smae argument you are presenting would be the same as saying it's going to cost more for Microsoft to buy ATI gpu chips as time goes buy due to the fact that ATI has stopped making GPU chips based on the Radeon x19xx series year ago in which the XBox 360 GPU is based on, but that isn't the case.
Have you ever heard of a phrase called "FAIL"?
3) That is NOT the case. As the 360's GPU is based off the X1900 GPU, but its not the same chip. The 360's GPU is the same 5 years ago and is IN PRODUCTION and been die-shrunked 1-2 times is why it costs less. You can't die-shrink a 20GB 2.5" hard drive.
4) Yes, ATI quit making 1900, 2000 and 3000 series GPUs a long time ago, they are no longer viable or needed as newer and cheaper tech such as the 5000s are available. Again, the 360 is a console and its tech MUST remain the same, even if the manufacturing is enhanced for lower costs.
Which would be no diff then Micrsoft asking a hardware vendor to produce a 20gb hard drive for them like they have continue to ask other hardware vendors to do like AMD is continuing to do for Microsoft with the Xbox 360 console.
5) Hard drives aren't CPUs or PSU or Optical drives. MS has no control of HD manufacturing. Yes, they can ORDER 20GB HD, but it would be very stupid and costly. As stated, the tooling for 5year old HD tech is no longer used. A typical 2.5" HD to today uses 9.5mm housing which limits the drive to 500~640GB. This is a 1~2 platter design.
So the HD manufacture uses 2 platters which have 125~130GB per side x 4 = 500GB. Then to make a 250GB model, they take out a platter - reducing costs.
To make the 120GB model which uses ALL the tech of the 500GB model, they only use one head and 1 side of a platter. (The other platter isn't finished out)
The casing, the motor, the heads, the circuit board, controller chips, SATA connectors, costs the same. Therefore, they cannot make a uber cheap $10 20GB drive your dreaming about. $40 retail ($25~30 from manufacture) is as cheap as they can make them. THAT *IS* the cut-off. That is why I gave you pricing of the 80/120/160/250GB HDs costing about $40... So the cheapest a manufacture could do is take a 120GB HD and BIOS-limit it the unit down at 20GB.
Who the hell would want a 20GB HD in a modern xbox?
So either get an ebay used xbox drive for $10~50. Or a new one for $130.
It is within MS's ability to upgrade the HD-LESS 360 to 8~16GB, but some games & features want specifically a hard drive. Don't count on MS doing this. They want to make a nice profit (and they do) and upgrading the 4GB to 16GB of flash memory costs them more money ($1~2 vs $10~12) per unit.
The numbers you are producing only implies to consumor products in the crop world it's a diff story.
6) Gee, really. They were there to show that there is a cut-off for manufacturing. Big deal, MS pays about $20~25 to put drive into their consoles, not hard to figure out. Doesn't change the fact that nobody makes 20/40/60GB HDs. 120~160GB is the smallest being made, the rest is old stuff.
Complain to MS for bending your arm to buy their brand of HD only and raping you in the process. They'll nod, say thanks and laugh at you.
Nobody made you buy the sub-standard model or any console for that matter.
..[/quote]
When i get out of school, what school did you go to? LOL i mean seriosuly do you or do you not understand you are talking about MICROSOFT. If you honeslty think that Microsoft couldn't call up a vendor and ask them to make a lot of 20gb hard drives for them at a low cost, then seriously you really don't understand the corp world.
Uh the Xbox 360 hasn't been re-designed, it uses the same hardware as it did 5 years ago, nice try. Furthermore the only diff between the xbox 5 years ago and today was the die shrink and improvments on the cooling. Understand again, improvments not re-design.
um yeah they are Microsoft didn't design the hardware LOL. You think Microsoft designs IBM cpus' or Xenon ATI based Gpus? They meet with these companies and the companies themselves produce the design based on exisiting hardware. Again the ATI hardware the xbox 360 uses is based upon the x1900 hardware an EXISTING hardware.
Have you heard of a phrase called Fail? It based on the same microarchtechure. I mean jesus it doesn't take a genuis to figure that the only diff between the gpu in the xbox and the gpu on a pc is that they are modified to fit in a diff structure. Still same design genuis.
LOL What? you think they have controls over gpu's? it's not about control it's about contract. Microsoft has no control over any hardware that is being produced on the X60, because everyone making the 360 is 3rd party vendors such as ibm and ATI. Again they have contracts with the hardware vendor that puts in the drives for Microsoft just like anyone else they are doing business with.
Wow you really are comparing angain consumor relations with corp relations big diff. Again the tech to make a 20gb hard drive would be cheaper so yes i am correct and it wouldn't cost the companies anything to get that produced using existing technology that these vendors can use. You act like they have to build a whole new seperate thing again to produce something already existing in which they don't. Do you not understand that it would cost the hardware vendors a few cents on the dollar to basicly put 20gb on a single platter now? Apprently you don't.
Who the hell wants a 4gb storage drive on an xbox 360 slim? What can you do with 4gb? nothing. This artical proves that. You obv prob don't own an xbox 360 or else you would know that. 20gb is good enough for basic storage like demos maps and downlaoded games.
First of all your wrong WD still prodcues 80gbs to the public. Second of all that still doesn't change the fact that the relation between micorsoft and it's vendors couldn't still produce a certain hardware config like they are with other hardware vendors.
Complain about me having to buy a new hard drive? you don't even make any sense where did I state anywhere that I had to buy a new hard drive. i stated that 20gb was good enough for basic storage. You aren't making any sense. What sub model i don't have the 360 slim, i had enough understanding to realize that you can't do anything on the 360 without at least 20gb.
belardo
Distinguished
- Nov 23, 2008
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Know how to quote? Yeah, its a bit weak here without edit.
[citation][nom]steelcity1981[/nom][quot]
I mean the smae argument you are presenting would be the same as saying it's going to cost more for Microsoft to buy ATI gpu chips as time goes buy due to the fact that ATI has stopped making GPU chips based on the Radeon x19xx series year ago in which the XBox 360 GPU is based on, but that isn't the case.
[/citation]
NO, that is NOT the case. The 360 doesn't use the X1900 GPU. It is a custom GPU based off the X1900, they are not compatible and have no baring on HD costs. ATI could make a $50 X1900, but in a sense - they already do... the ATI 4650 is $50 and is just a more advanced, faster and cheaper X1900.
But its moot AS the 360GPU *IS NOT* an PC class GPU. ATI doesn't make the 360 GPU that came out 5 years ago. They made it smaller and cheaper, but its the same GPU and its still in production.
Understand that, its STILL in mass-production.
A 20GB HD or an X1900 GPU are NOT in production and are out-dated technology.
Read number 5 above. The 360HD is not special. Its BIOS chip just says "I'm a Microsoft product", nothing more... in general. Otherwise, its 99.99% the same as any other HD. Nobody is tooled to make a crappy 20GB HD. Only a MORON would spend the same amount of money for a 20GB HD as a 250GB HD.
So? Its still not cost effective to make old crap. It *STILL* costs about the same to make a 120~250GB HD as it would to make a modern "20GB" drive. OEM or retail price.
If *YOU* Honestly think that Microsoft is stupid enough to have a custom product made that nobody wants to buy today, then you seriously don't understand the real world. They are already getting grilled with the $130 360-HD or the $100 wireless add-on for older Xboxes.
It requires engineering to make new mobo revisions to work with die-shrink and combined system chips. MS could have easily fit the guts of the 360S into the old case, but that would have been more expensive and a stupid marketing move.
These revisions are still "re-designs".
Er, actually - MS has control with contracts. ATI is under contract to make XBox360 GPU. ATI is required to die-shrink the product. Its to the advantage of both companies to shrink and cost-reduce the products. ATI isn't under contract to make X1900 or HD2900 or 3850 GPUs. ATI isn't allowed to discontinue making 360-GPUs as long as MS is paying for them.
We've gone over this child.
The costs to make a 20GB today, would costs the same to make a 120GB HD. So why the FRACK would MS or any other company or person with an IQ over 2 digits want to spend the money and effort with a dinky and mostly useless product? I have dusty 80~120GB HDs that work fine... to small for most people. The 20GB HD were barely usable to begin with.
MS sells the 360S-4GB to sell it at $200. Nothing more. They'll make MORE money off the poor customer who has to blow $130 for the upgrade. Its good marking raping sense. Nothing more.
FAIL again little buddy.
Lets think about this. What you see on the shelves or newegg is whats for sale, not whats is manufactured. You can STILL buy the old 360, but do you think MS is actually making OLD 360 consoles? By your logic, they are.
Over and over again. HD companies DON'T like old tech, it costs them more money to make OLD tech. The smallest platters (per side) is 120~160GB. Why the hell would they make and sell a 20~80GB product with a 160GB platter? Thats slightly like saying "We're selling you a 4-cyl car with an 8-cyl engine block for the price of an 8-cyl. engine" Customers and OEMers would run out of the room.
Check on WD's website... whats the smallest 2.5" they sell again?
Yes MS has been selling a 256mb version (Arcade/Core) for years and for many people, the 4GB has worked out okay. But you don't have any understanding that who wants to buy a 20GB HD today? The cost difference to MS for a modern "20GB" vs 250GB drive would be $5, tops. The $1 costs for the 4GB flash drive included in the 360s is almost generous by MS standards.
[citation][nom]steelcity1981[/nom][quot]
I mean the smae argument you are presenting would be the same as saying it's going to cost more for Microsoft to buy ATI gpu chips as time goes buy due to the fact that ATI has stopped making GPU chips based on the Radeon x19xx series year ago in which the XBox 360 GPU is based on, but that isn't the case.
[/citation]
NO, that is NOT the case. The 360 doesn't use the X1900 GPU. It is a custom GPU based off the X1900, they are not compatible and have no baring on HD costs. ATI could make a $50 X1900, but in a sense - they already do... the ATI 4650 is $50 and is just a more advanced, faster and cheaper X1900.
But its moot AS the 360GPU *IS NOT* an PC class GPU. ATI doesn't make the 360 GPU that came out 5 years ago. They made it smaller and cheaper, but its the same GPU and its still in production.
Understand that, its STILL in mass-production.
A 20GB HD or an X1900 GPU are NOT in production and are out-dated technology.
Read number 5 above. The 360HD is not special. Its BIOS chip just says "I'm a Microsoft product", nothing more... in general. Otherwise, its 99.99% the same as any other HD. Nobody is tooled to make a crappy 20GB HD. Only a MORON would spend the same amount of money for a 20GB HD as a 250GB HD.
So? Its still not cost effective to make old crap. It *STILL* costs about the same to make a 120~250GB HD as it would to make a modern "20GB" drive. OEM or retail price.
If *YOU* Honestly think that Microsoft is stupid enough to have a custom product made that nobody wants to buy today, then you seriously don't understand the real world. They are already getting grilled with the $130 360-HD or the $100 wireless add-on for older Xboxes.
It requires engineering to make new mobo revisions to work with die-shrink and combined system chips. MS could have easily fit the guts of the 360S into the old case, but that would have been more expensive and a stupid marketing move.
These revisions are still "re-designs".
Er, actually - MS has control with contracts. ATI is under contract to make XBox360 GPU. ATI is required to die-shrink the product. Its to the advantage of both companies to shrink and cost-reduce the products. ATI isn't under contract to make X1900 or HD2900 or 3850 GPUs. ATI isn't allowed to discontinue making 360-GPUs as long as MS is paying for them.
We've gone over this child.
The costs to make a 20GB today, would costs the same to make a 120GB HD. So why the FRACK would MS or any other company or person with an IQ over 2 digits want to spend the money and effort with a dinky and mostly useless product? I have dusty 80~120GB HDs that work fine... to small for most people. The 20GB HD were barely usable to begin with.
MS sells the 360S-4GB to sell it at $200. Nothing more. They'll make MORE money off the poor customer who has to blow $130 for the upgrade. Its good marking raping sense. Nothing more.
FAIL again little buddy.
Lets think about this. What you see on the shelves or newegg is whats for sale, not whats is manufactured. You can STILL buy the old 360, but do you think MS is actually making OLD 360 consoles? By your logic, they are.
Over and over again. HD companies DON'T like old tech, it costs them more money to make OLD tech. The smallest platters (per side) is 120~160GB. Why the hell would they make and sell a 20~80GB product with a 160GB platter? Thats slightly like saying "We're selling you a 4-cyl car with an 8-cyl engine block for the price of an 8-cyl. engine" Customers and OEMers would run out of the room.
Check on WD's website... whats the smallest 2.5" they sell again?
Yes MS has been selling a 256mb version (Arcade/Core) for years and for many people, the 4GB has worked out okay. But you don't have any understanding that who wants to buy a 20GB HD today? The cost difference to MS for a modern "20GB" vs 250GB drive would be $5, tops. The $1 costs for the 4GB flash drive included in the 360s is almost generous by MS standards.
SteelCity1981
Distinguished
- Sep 16, 2010
- 249
- 0
- 18,830
[citation][nom]belardo[/nom]Know how to quote? Yeah, its a bit weak here without edit.
NO, that is NOT the case. The 360 doesn't use the X1900 GPU. It is a custom GPU based off the X1900, they are not compatible and have no baring on HD costs. ATI could make a $50 X1900, but in a sense - they already do... the ATI 4650 is $50 and is just a more advanced, faster and cheaper X1900.But its moot AS the 360GPU *IS NOT* an PC class GPU. ATI doesn't make the 360 GPU that came out 5 years ago. They made it smaller and cheaper, but its the same GPU and its still in production.Understand that, its STILL in mass-production.A 20GB HD or an X1900 GPU are NOT in production and are out-dated technology.Read number 5 above. The 360HD is not special. Its BIOS chip just says "I'm a Microsoft product", nothing more... in general. Otherwise, its 99.99% the same as any other HD. Nobody is tooled to make a crappy 20GB HD. Only a MORON would spend the same amount of money for a 20GB HD as a 250GB HD.So? Its still not cost effective to make old crap. It *STILL* costs about the same to make a 120~250GB HD as it would to make a modern "20GB" drive. OEM or retail price.If *YOU* Honestly think that Microsoft is stupid enough to have a custom product made that nobody wants to buy today, then you seriously don't understand the real world. They are already getting grilled with the $130 360-HD or the $100 wireless add-on for older Xboxes.It requires engineering to make new mobo revisions to work with die-shrink and combined system chips. MS could have easily fit the guts of the 360S into the old case, but that would have been more expensive and a stupid marketing move.These revisions are still "re-designs".Er, actually - MS has control with contracts. ATI is under contract to make XBox360 GPU. ATI is required to die-shrink the product. Its to the advantage of both companies to shrink and cost-reduce the products. ATI isn't under contract to make X1900 or HD2900 or 3850 GPUs. ATI isn't allowed to discontinue making 360-GPUs as long as MS is paying for them.We've gone over this child.The costs to make a 20GB today, would costs the same to make a 120GB HD. So why the FRACK would MS or any other company or person with an IQ over 2 digits want to spend the money and effort with a dinky and mostly useless product? I have dusty 80~120GB HDs that work fine... to small for most people. The 20GB HD were barely usable to begin with.MS sells the 360S-4GB to sell it at $200. Nothing more. They'll make MORE money off the poor customer who has to blow $130 for the upgrade. Its good marking raping sense. Nothing more.FAIL again little buddy.Lets think about this. What you see on the shelves or newegg is whats for sale, not whats is manufactured. You can STILL buy the old 360, but do you think MS is actually making OLD 360 consoles? By your logic, they are.Over and over again. HD companies DON'T like old tech, it costs them more money to make OLD tech. The smallest platters (per side) is 120~160GB. Why the hell would they make and sell a 20~80GB product with a 160GB platter? Thats slightly like saying "We're selling you a 4-cyl car with an 8-cyl engine block for the price of an 8-cyl. engine" Customers and OEMers would run out of the room.Check on WD's website... whats the smallest 2.5" they sell again?Yes MS has been selling a 256mb version (Arcade/Core) for years and for many people, the 4GB has worked out okay. But you don't have any understanding that who wants to buy a 20GB HD today? The cost difference to MS for a modern "20GB" vs 250GB drive would be $5, tops. The $1 costs for the 4GB flash drive included in the 360s is almost generous by MS standards.[/citation]
You just said it yourself. it's based off the same technology. Soo.. this would mean what that the Technology itself that they are using is based off the same chip technology that they are using in the xbox 360... Uh no it's not in mass production who else is using it? Lets see no one but microsoft. Just like the case of the 20gb hard drive. it still could have been specially produced for Microsoft. No diff.
No one is tooled? they could have kept it in production for Microsoft just like they did with the ATI chips matter of fact Microsoft kept using the 20gb hard drive for a fews years after the mass production stopped on so obv someone was still making them for them.
Custom product? what do you think microsoft is doing now? LOL Everything they are using hardware wise is custom. Who wants to buy a 4gb internal drive space to use as their mass storage device. Again same thing.
Um no a redesign is when they redo something. If that's the case then i guess the Xbox 360 has been redesigned 3 times over if you are including the fact that's the die is shrunk in which means nothing, because unless the technology has changed with improvments to the performance etc.. then a die shrunk isn't considerd a redesign. that be like saying a Athlon X2 4800+ 65nm is redesigned form an Athlon X2 4800+ 90nm because of the die shrink alone....
Ok which all goes back to my points about CONTRACT. Just like ATI is contracted with Micrsoft so hard other hardware vendors. including hard drive manufcatures. What you just think hard drive manufactures go into a company and not at least be insured that they don't producess an x amount of hard drives and are guranteed an x amount of profit in return under a contract? Of course they do...
Yes, and we have gone over this. 120gb hard drive cost more to the consumor then a 80gb or 60gb etc.. If 120gb cost the same then Microsoft would obv throw in 120gb on its base model, in which they don't. Again you are comparing computer use with console use! anyone that truly owns an xbox 360 would tell you for basic storage 20gb is fine. Yet 4gb is better right? So 20gb is outdated but yet 4gb is cool with you because it's a good marketing for Microsoft that's just a contradiction.
A frined of mine just bought an 80gb hard drive from newegg. Guess when it was made by WD? july 2010 not july 2009 but again for you july 2010! Yep those are just stuff on the shelf they are trying to get rid of which would mean what, They are STILL in production!
The the smallest they sell is 80gb for a 2.5 inch so all of the above you are stating is false because they are still making 80gb 2.5 inch hard drives.
Again you are thinking pc, not xbox 360 20gb hard drive space is good for basic online use. As for the 256mb drives, you couldn't get online with those xbox 360's anyhow Xbox even stated that unless you bought a hard drive. Those small storage were to store just saved games on and nothing really more.
Apprently you and i aren't going to agree here. so we are better off agreeing to disagree. Not like anyone but you and I are reading this anymore anyhow. Good debate. Yeah i got carried awasy with the name calling too My bad.
NO, that is NOT the case. The 360 doesn't use the X1900 GPU. It is a custom GPU based off the X1900, they are not compatible and have no baring on HD costs. ATI could make a $50 X1900, but in a sense - they already do... the ATI 4650 is $50 and is just a more advanced, faster and cheaper X1900.But its moot AS the 360GPU *IS NOT* an PC class GPU. ATI doesn't make the 360 GPU that came out 5 years ago. They made it smaller and cheaper, but its the same GPU and its still in production.Understand that, its STILL in mass-production.A 20GB HD or an X1900 GPU are NOT in production and are out-dated technology.Read number 5 above. The 360HD is not special. Its BIOS chip just says "I'm a Microsoft product", nothing more... in general. Otherwise, its 99.99% the same as any other HD. Nobody is tooled to make a crappy 20GB HD. Only a MORON would spend the same amount of money for a 20GB HD as a 250GB HD.So? Its still not cost effective to make old crap. It *STILL* costs about the same to make a 120~250GB HD as it would to make a modern "20GB" drive. OEM or retail price.If *YOU* Honestly think that Microsoft is stupid enough to have a custom product made that nobody wants to buy today, then you seriously don't understand the real world. They are already getting grilled with the $130 360-HD or the $100 wireless add-on for older Xboxes.It requires engineering to make new mobo revisions to work with die-shrink and combined system chips. MS could have easily fit the guts of the 360S into the old case, but that would have been more expensive and a stupid marketing move.These revisions are still "re-designs".Er, actually - MS has control with contracts. ATI is under contract to make XBox360 GPU. ATI is required to die-shrink the product. Its to the advantage of both companies to shrink and cost-reduce the products. ATI isn't under contract to make X1900 or HD2900 or 3850 GPUs. ATI isn't allowed to discontinue making 360-GPUs as long as MS is paying for them.We've gone over this child.The costs to make a 20GB today, would costs the same to make a 120GB HD. So why the FRACK would MS or any other company or person with an IQ over 2 digits want to spend the money and effort with a dinky and mostly useless product? I have dusty 80~120GB HDs that work fine... to small for most people. The 20GB HD were barely usable to begin with.MS sells the 360S-4GB to sell it at $200. Nothing more. They'll make MORE money off the poor customer who has to blow $130 for the upgrade. Its good marking raping sense. Nothing more.FAIL again little buddy.Lets think about this. What you see on the shelves or newegg is whats for sale, not whats is manufactured. You can STILL buy the old 360, but do you think MS is actually making OLD 360 consoles? By your logic, they are.Over and over again. HD companies DON'T like old tech, it costs them more money to make OLD tech. The smallest platters (per side) is 120~160GB. Why the hell would they make and sell a 20~80GB product with a 160GB platter? Thats slightly like saying "We're selling you a 4-cyl car with an 8-cyl engine block for the price of an 8-cyl. engine" Customers and OEMers would run out of the room.Check on WD's website... whats the smallest 2.5" they sell again?Yes MS has been selling a 256mb version (Arcade/Core) for years and for many people, the 4GB has worked out okay. But you don't have any understanding that who wants to buy a 20GB HD today? The cost difference to MS for a modern "20GB" vs 250GB drive would be $5, tops. The $1 costs for the 4GB flash drive included in the 360s is almost generous by MS standards.[/citation]
You just said it yourself. it's based off the same technology. Soo.. this would mean what that the Technology itself that they are using is based off the same chip technology that they are using in the xbox 360... Uh no it's not in mass production who else is using it? Lets see no one but microsoft. Just like the case of the 20gb hard drive. it still could have been specially produced for Microsoft. No diff.
No one is tooled? they could have kept it in production for Microsoft just like they did with the ATI chips matter of fact Microsoft kept using the 20gb hard drive for a fews years after the mass production stopped on so obv someone was still making them for them.
Custom product? what do you think microsoft is doing now? LOL Everything they are using hardware wise is custom. Who wants to buy a 4gb internal drive space to use as their mass storage device. Again same thing.
Um no a redesign is when they redo something. If that's the case then i guess the Xbox 360 has been redesigned 3 times over if you are including the fact that's the die is shrunk in which means nothing, because unless the technology has changed with improvments to the performance etc.. then a die shrunk isn't considerd a redesign. that be like saying a Athlon X2 4800+ 65nm is redesigned form an Athlon X2 4800+ 90nm because of the die shrink alone....
Ok which all goes back to my points about CONTRACT. Just like ATI is contracted with Micrsoft so hard other hardware vendors. including hard drive manufcatures. What you just think hard drive manufactures go into a company and not at least be insured that they don't producess an x amount of hard drives and are guranteed an x amount of profit in return under a contract? Of course they do...
Yes, and we have gone over this. 120gb hard drive cost more to the consumor then a 80gb or 60gb etc.. If 120gb cost the same then Microsoft would obv throw in 120gb on its base model, in which they don't. Again you are comparing computer use with console use! anyone that truly owns an xbox 360 would tell you for basic storage 20gb is fine. Yet 4gb is better right? So 20gb is outdated but yet 4gb is cool with you because it's a good marketing for Microsoft that's just a contradiction.
A frined of mine just bought an 80gb hard drive from newegg. Guess when it was made by WD? july 2010 not july 2009 but again for you july 2010! Yep those are just stuff on the shelf they are trying to get rid of which would mean what, They are STILL in production!
The the smallest they sell is 80gb for a 2.5 inch so all of the above you are stating is false because they are still making 80gb 2.5 inch hard drives.
Again you are thinking pc, not xbox 360 20gb hard drive space is good for basic online use. As for the 256mb drives, you couldn't get online with those xbox 360's anyhow Xbox even stated that unless you bought a hard drive. Those small storage were to store just saved games on and nothing really more.
Apprently you and i aren't going to agree here. so we are better off agreeing to disagree. Not like anyone but you and I are reading this anymore anyhow. Good debate. Yeah i got carried awasy with the name calling too My bad.
belardo
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- Nov 23, 2008
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TIP: When quoting long posts, break up the quotes.
[citation][nom]steelcity1981[/nom]You just said it yourself. it's based off the same technology. Soo.. this would mean what that the Technology itself that they are using is based off the same chip technology that they are using in the xbox 360... Uh no it's not in mass production who else is using it?[/citation]
No, its not the same thing. They stopped making the X1900~1950 GPU around NOV 2008 when the GeForce 8800GTX hit the market. It was 30~50% the performance for the same price. It would be a year before ATI is competitive with the 3850/3870 cards. The 360GPU is not the same die as any of the X19x0 cards, period.
The $40 ATI (uh AMD) 5450 is based off the same tech as the $400 5870, but are the same? By your standards, they are one in the same. But in reality, its a smaller and reduced version of the 5800 GPU, nothing more. The Xbox360 GPU has none of the new functions of a 5000 class GPU. The 360GPU *IS* not the X1900. The X1900 is long dead since 2006. But the 360GPU is being made in the millions every year still, its in MASS PRODUCTION.
"Mass production" doesn't mean that there are more than one client using the product. If 10 companies order 100 units of a prototype item, its not mass production. 20GB drives are out of production, period.
You're comparing the 360s-4GB to the 360-20GB. Those are two different market products. The 360s-4GB replaced the 360-0HD. The 360s-250 replaced ALL other 360 models. So stop comparing the wrong products.
The next Gen Xbox in 2012~12 will not be re-design, it'll be a NEW-DESIGN.
Because MS and any other company would be STUPID to pay more money for a 20GB drive when the HD manufacture is making 60, 80 or whatever for the same or lower price. And the consumer would be laughing or shaking their heads at MS for selling 20GB 360s when Sony is selling models with 60/80/120GB drives.
You keep trying to find a reason for MS or anyone to use something that nobody wants. Theres a reason why 360 owners bought the 60GB upgrade or traded in their 360s for a newer model, besides to get one with a NEWER motherboard.
The PS3 came with a 20GB and 60GB models. So MS came out with a 60GB model. Sony killed off the 20GB model quickly because they didn't sell as well but was replaced with a cost-reduced PS3 with a 40GB drive. From that point, MS started phasing out 20GB drives.
The bottom-end 360s go for about $200 (recently) thats a price point. Yes, its correct marketing positioning. Then sell you the $130 upgrades later. If MS-sold a 20GB version 360s today, it would costs MS $5 less than the 360s-250. If they sold a 360s-20GB for $200, they consumer will most likely never upgrade it AND MS loses money since they sold the console with a hard drive. If they sold a 360s-20 for $250, its margins still suck and the consumers still wouldn't like it because its $50 cheaper than the 250GB model.
The HD-LESS 360s are sold at a loss with the prospect of that consumer eventually buying an HD upgrade or lots of memory cards ($30 for 256mb card?) so in the end, it balances out.
As stated earlier, it would costs MS $8~10 more to drop in a 16GB flash card... but that hurts their bottom line at the $200 MSRP, and to raise it to $225 would sink it.
Trust me dude, MS has a room full of guys with slide-rules and energy drinks to make all these things come together for maximum profits. Their big failure was being cheap in testing and low-quality drives to rush the 360 to market before the PS3. It was the best action MS could do, if they we're 6 months late or the PS3 9 months early (it was late) - the 360 wouldn't have the market share they have now.
Whats cheaper to make:
A) 320GB = 2 platters with 4 sides or (2009 tech)
B) 320GB = 1 platter with 2 sides (2010 tech)
This is why we have such a quick jump to 640~1TB drives this year. In 2008, typical notebook drives were 60~160 with 250GB being LARGEST (60x4 = 240 + wiggle room)
Please, call WD and ask them how feasible it would be to make a 20GB 2.5" drive with todays tech. Notice, nobody is making ANY MORE 1.8" or 1" hard-drives anymore. Yep, many years ago - 1GB drives had CF interface as it was the only way to get 1GB into that size for digital cameras. $$$$
** Checking on WD's site. The 80GB drives are their oldest tech such as PATA or SATA 1.5Gbs. These are phasing out as WD shouldn't be actively making these (profitloss)... these are the last of the PATA drives. Seagate has NO legacy drives available. 160GB is their smallest. Hitachi has older bottom end 80s. But Seagate and Hitachi are seriously pushing their 7mm single platter models with 160GB per side drives.
By 2011, you won't be finding 80GB left to choose from... other than PATA for people with older notebooks... SATA became standard for notebooks about 4 years ago, most people simply replace old models.
I wasn't completely correct about the 80GB drives from WD, but it make me wrong on anything I say. WD has limited 80GB left, doesn't mean they still make them. Drives are made in batches. WD would rather sell you 160GB drives so they can be done with their old stock. Seagate is done with older tech.
On Newegg, they only have 3 80-GB HD ony drives left. 2 are WDs in which one is ATA-6. The other 80GB is EIDE. That it.. selling for $45/$55 and $80. Mostly for OLD tech. Because who'd want to spend $45 for an 80GB HD when they can spend $45 for a 250GB?
Again, you're not looking at logistics or business sense. You're comparing a $300~400 20GB xbox which is NO LONGER MADE to a $200 Xbox with 4GB. Get a $300 xbox, its not an issue. Buy the $130 upgrade, its not an issue.
MS is in the right to sell the $200 Xbox with 4GB. It works and will play most games fine. The gamer can buy the 20GB 4-year old Xbox drive, break it open with a hammer and shove it into the 360s if they want.
Its all about money, not dreams or ideas.
[citation][nom]steelcity1981[/nom]You just said it yourself. it's based off the same technology. Soo.. this would mean what that the Technology itself that they are using is based off the same chip technology that they are using in the xbox 360... Uh no it's not in mass production who else is using it?[/citation]
No, its not the same thing. They stopped making the X1900~1950 GPU around NOV 2008 when the GeForce 8800GTX hit the market. It was 30~50% the performance for the same price. It would be a year before ATI is competitive with the 3850/3870 cards. The 360GPU is not the same die as any of the X19x0 cards, period.
The $40 ATI (uh AMD) 5450 is based off the same tech as the $400 5870, but are the same? By your standards, they are one in the same. But in reality, its a smaller and reduced version of the 5800 GPU, nothing more. The Xbox360 GPU has none of the new functions of a 5000 class GPU. The 360GPU *IS* not the X1900. The X1900 is long dead since 2006. But the 360GPU is being made in the millions every year still, its in MASS PRODUCTION.
"Mass production" doesn't mean that there are more than one client using the product. If 10 companies order 100 units of a prototype item, its not mass production. 20GB drives are out of production, period.
Again, why would MS pay the same costs for a 20GB drive when a 60, 120, etc drives are cheaper? Theres a reason the Xb0x has been upgraded with bigger drives... the 20GB Xbox was retired years ago. Sept 2008 actually.
You're comparing the 360s-4GB to the 360-20GB. Those are two different market products. The 360s-4GB replaced the 360-0HD. The 360s-250 replaced ALL other 360 models. So stop comparing the wrong products.
The 360 cannot be enhanced, it would break the console standard. But it can be costs-reduced... like anything else. There are 5 basic different motherboards that are incompatible with each other. Opus is a Falcon board to replace original RROD/Dead 360s, so its not counted. When the CHIPs were changed, so are the boards. Thats a redesign.
The next Gen Xbox in 2012~12 will not be re-design, it'll be a NEW-DESIGN.
Same chip, yes... its a die-shrink nothing more. But a the AMD-4800 939 arn't the same chip as the AMD-4800 AM2 as they required different motherboard (designs/chipsets).
Because MS and any other company would be STUPID to pay more money for a 20GB drive when the HD manufacture is making 60, 80 or whatever for the same or lower price. And the consumer would be laughing or shaking their heads at MS for selling 20GB 360s when Sony is selling models with 60/80/120GB drives.
You keep trying to find a reason for MS or anyone to use something that nobody wants. Theres a reason why 360 owners bought the 60GB upgrade or traded in their 360s for a newer model, besides to get one with a NEWER motherboard.
The PS3 came with a 20GB and 60GB models. So MS came out with a 60GB model. Sony killed off the 20GB model quickly because they didn't sell as well but was replaced with a cost-reduced PS3 with a 40GB drive. From that point, MS started phasing out 20GB drives.
You're comparing the wrong products. Compare the 360-Core/Arcade to the 360s-4GB... The S-4GB is clearly a much better console/deal. otherwise, you need to compare the 360s-250 to the 360-20GB.
The bottom-end 360s go for about $200 (recently) thats a price point. Yes, its correct marketing positioning. Then sell you the $130 upgrades later. If MS-sold a 20GB version 360s today, it would costs MS $5 less than the 360s-250. If they sold a 360s-20GB for $200, they consumer will most likely never upgrade it AND MS loses money since they sold the console with a hard drive. If they sold a 360s-20 for $250, its margins still suck and the consumers still wouldn't like it because its $50 cheaper than the 250GB model.
The HD-LESS 360s are sold at a loss with the prospect of that consumer eventually buying an HD upgrade or lots of memory cards ($30 for 256mb card?) so in the end, it balances out.
As stated earlier, it would costs MS $8~10 more to drop in a 16GB flash card... but that hurts their bottom line at the $200 MSRP, and to raise it to $225 would sink it.
Trust me dude, MS has a room full of guys with slide-rules and energy drinks to make all these things come together for maximum profits. Their big failure was being cheap in testing and low-quality drives to rush the 360 to market before the PS3. It was the best action MS could do, if they we're 6 months late or the PS3 9 months early (it was late) - the 360 wouldn't have the market share they have now.
If an 80GB drive comes off the assembly line on July 15 2010, and no more are made after July 17, 2010. Then its NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION. Its been 3 months. Remember the platter, I can't explain it any easier, please re-read it above. Nobody is making 80GB drives. They (WD, Seagate, etc) are making 160GB drives with 160GB per-side platters. They cannot make any more 80GB drives because it would hurt their profits and make production more complicated. When 80GB drives were in production, they used the same tech to build 320GB drives (2 platters / 4 sides).
Whats cheaper to make:
A) 320GB = 2 platters with 4 sides or (2009 tech)
B) 320GB = 1 platter with 2 sides (2010 tech)
This is why we have such a quick jump to 640~1TB drives this year. In 2008, typical notebook drives were 60~160 with 250GB being LARGEST (60x4 = 240 + wiggle room)
Please, call WD and ask them how feasible it would be to make a 20GB 2.5" drive with todays tech. Notice, nobody is making ANY MORE 1.8" or 1" hard-drives anymore. Yep, many years ago - 1GB drives had CF interface as it was the only way to get 1GB into that size for digital cameras. $$$$
** Checking on WD's site. The 80GB drives are their oldest tech such as PATA or SATA 1.5Gbs. These are phasing out as WD shouldn't be actively making these (profitloss)... these are the last of the PATA drives. Seagate has NO legacy drives available. 160GB is their smallest. Hitachi has older bottom end 80s. But Seagate and Hitachi are seriously pushing their 7mm single platter models with 160GB per side drives.
By 2011, you won't be finding 80GB left to choose from... other than PATA for people with older notebooks... SATA became standard for notebooks about 4 years ago, most people simply replace old models.
I wasn't completely correct about the 80GB drives from WD, but it make me wrong on anything I say. WD has limited 80GB left, doesn't mean they still make them. Drives are made in batches. WD would rather sell you 160GB drives so they can be done with their old stock. Seagate is done with older tech.
On Newegg, they only have 3 80-GB HD ony drives left. 2 are WDs in which one is ATA-6. The other 80GB is EIDE. That it.. selling for $45/$55 and $80. Mostly for OLD tech. Because who'd want to spend $45 for an 80GB HD when they can spend $45 for a 250GB?
Again, you're not looking at logistics or business sense. You're comparing a $300~400 20GB xbox which is NO LONGER MADE to a $200 Xbox with 4GB. Get a $300 xbox, its not an issue. Buy the $130 upgrade, its not an issue.
MS is in the right to sell the $200 Xbox with 4GB. It works and will play most games fine. The gamer can buy the 20GB 4-year old Xbox drive, break it open with a hammer and shove it into the 360s if they want.
Its all about money, not dreams or ideas.
SteelCity1981
Distinguished
- Sep 16, 2010
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Sorry man but they are based on the same technology so therefor they are the same. The only diff is where the chip itself is being manufactured on. It doesn't matter the only diff is that they continued an outdated chip onto the xbox 360. And in terms of it being mass produced it's not. it's being specialized produced to one company. Ok well the same logic you are saying implies to the Xbox 360. They aren't being mass produced due to the fact Micrsoft is putting in orders for them to produce an x amount of gpus when needed.
Ok and that still doesn't reflect the fact the Microsoft couldn't continue to keep the contracts to produce 20gb models for their base systems.
Why? Easy model numbering. Why would you put an 80gb on a base model, then what would be the point of buying the other models higher then it?
Um no they are not they are refreshed not redesigned. They still have the same functions as the last boards. They were improvements. All of those boards you mentioned are refresh versions from the last and nothing more.
Um they made 2 versions of the AM2 Athlon X2 4800+ Windsor 90nm and Brisbane 65nm. Same socket. And even if was was based on the 939 like the toledo was, still nothing changed other then DDR2 memory support was added. It was still based on the K8.
Ok and yet selling 4gb of storage space isn't laughable for their base model? How is spending 20gb of storage any diff then 4gb of internal storage 20gb is cheaper. you keep saying the production cost would be the same but no it wouldn't. the cost to produce a 20gb hard drive is cheaper, because nore basic to produce then a 60 or 80gb.
Yet people want 4gb of internal drive space? I gurantee you that a 20gb base model is more appealing then a 4gb base model. I mean come on that's just common sense.
N o it wasn't because of the 20gb model it was the fact that it didn't come with a lot of things like built in wi-fi or a media card reader etc.. and for 100 dollars more you could get all of that plus a larger hard drive.
I mean if what you are saying is the case then i guess the 360 20gb models would have been killed off years ago but they continued to sell them up until 2009.
I'm not comparing the wrong products the model with the 20gb hard drive cost as much as the slim basic model did with wifi built in.
Oh come on so throwing in an extra 4gb internal memory is going to hurt them? give me a break 8gb of internal memory would be cents on the dollar. That wouldn't raise the price anymore and besides Microsoft has long paid off their research and deleveompent fees. They could drop the slinm model down 50 bucks and still make a profit from it if they wanted to.
"IF" that just seems like you backed yourself into a corner and are trying to dig yourself out by making that example. well if they stopped producing it on the 17th then that means they no longer make it. I mean come on it even shows it on the WD site that they are still making 80gb 2.5 inch hard drives. further more what what do you want WD to do conintue to recycle their build dates every 2 weeks? lol.
Yet again it doesn't matter the size of the platter you can throw only 20gbs worths of gigbits on a 120gb size 1 platter. If microsoft doesn't want anymore storage on a hard drive due to the fact that they want to keep it a base model so it doesn't start intruding on the other models with bigger hard drives then of course they can have a hard ware vendor produce a 20gb on a single platter if they want to for that reason.
Oh but wait a minute you just said in a few post back that the smallest they make is 160gb in production now. now you are back tracking after seeing that i'm right that they still do make 80gbs hmmm.
Um they were selling 20gb Xbox 360 versions for 200 dollars brand new last year, which cost the same about as the slim basic model does.
apperntly it doesn't because you can't do crap with 4gbs online hell you can't even play a basic multi player game online.
Ok and that still doesn't reflect the fact the Microsoft couldn't continue to keep the contracts to produce 20gb models for their base systems.
Why? Easy model numbering. Why would you put an 80gb on a base model, then what would be the point of buying the other models higher then it?
Um no they are not they are refreshed not redesigned. They still have the same functions as the last boards. They were improvements. All of those boards you mentioned are refresh versions from the last and nothing more.
Um they made 2 versions of the AM2 Athlon X2 4800+ Windsor 90nm and Brisbane 65nm. Same socket. And even if was was based on the 939 like the toledo was, still nothing changed other then DDR2 memory support was added. It was still based on the K8.
Ok and yet selling 4gb of storage space isn't laughable for their base model? How is spending 20gb of storage any diff then 4gb of internal storage 20gb is cheaper. you keep saying the production cost would be the same but no it wouldn't. the cost to produce a 20gb hard drive is cheaper, because nore basic to produce then a 60 or 80gb.
Yet people want 4gb of internal drive space? I gurantee you that a 20gb base model is more appealing then a 4gb base model. I mean come on that's just common sense.
N o it wasn't because of the 20gb model it was the fact that it didn't come with a lot of things like built in wi-fi or a media card reader etc.. and for 100 dollars more you could get all of that plus a larger hard drive.
I mean if what you are saying is the case then i guess the 360 20gb models would have been killed off years ago but they continued to sell them up until 2009.
I'm not comparing the wrong products the model with the 20gb hard drive cost as much as the slim basic model did with wifi built in.
Oh come on so throwing in an extra 4gb internal memory is going to hurt them? give me a break 8gb of internal memory would be cents on the dollar. That wouldn't raise the price anymore and besides Microsoft has long paid off their research and deleveompent fees. They could drop the slinm model down 50 bucks and still make a profit from it if they wanted to.
"IF" that just seems like you backed yourself into a corner and are trying to dig yourself out by making that example. well if they stopped producing it on the 17th then that means they no longer make it. I mean come on it even shows it on the WD site that they are still making 80gb 2.5 inch hard drives. further more what what do you want WD to do conintue to recycle their build dates every 2 weeks? lol.
Yet again it doesn't matter the size of the platter you can throw only 20gbs worths of gigbits on a 120gb size 1 platter. If microsoft doesn't want anymore storage on a hard drive due to the fact that they want to keep it a base model so it doesn't start intruding on the other models with bigger hard drives then of course they can have a hard ware vendor produce a 20gb on a single platter if they want to for that reason.
Oh but wait a minute you just said in a few post back that the smallest they make is 160gb in production now. now you are back tracking after seeing that i'm right that they still do make 80gbs hmmm.
Um they were selling 20gb Xbox 360 versions for 200 dollars brand new last year, which cost the same about as the slim basic model does.
apperntly it doesn't because you can't do crap with 4gbs online hell you can't even play a basic multi player game online.
I know this is an old post but can some help. I've noticed stupid MS haven't sorted this. If i go out and buy a 250GB HD will this game then work? It's not me thats got it, i wouldn't be stupid enough to buy a 4GB console, i still have the old elite, but my friend is daft and bought the slim 4GB and he can't play any games with me, not only halo reach, theres quite a few effected by it.
Help would be appreciated
Thanks Guys
Help would be appreciated
Thanks Guys
Hi. I know its an old post. But there is any solution for this problem so far? Please someone send an email telling me to nestor_chaves@live.com.ar
I cant find nothing in the web!
cheers guys
I cant find nothing in the web!
cheers guys
You get what you pay for? Nowhere does it say on the 4GB Packaging that there is NO HARD DRIVE. It's implied that it has a 4GB Hard Drive, which is outrageous, I know, but it does not state that there isn't one, and that it may not work with certain games and features.
There's no doubt in my mind that it has nothing to do with testing. They tested it. They knew. It's a cash grab. The same way they knew that the layout of the first 360s would inevitably lead to the Red Ring of Death. Big corporations consciously break rules and use half-arsed excuses and plea ignorance to get away with it, since they control everything anyway.
In my eyes, I see it as neglecting to correctly advertise a product, and they should be held accountable, to some degree.
There's no doubt in my mind that it has nothing to do with testing. They tested it. They knew. It's a cash grab. The same way they knew that the layout of the first 360s would inevitably lead to the Red Ring of Death. Big corporations consciously break rules and use half-arsed excuses and plea ignorance to get away with it, since they control everything anyway.
In my eyes, I see it as neglecting to correctly advertise a product, and they should be held accountable, to some degree.
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