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"Robert M." <rmarkoff@msn.com> wrote in message
news:rmarkoff-CC2CB9.13353701052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...

>
> Nothing false about getting out of a "contract" if you have no coverage,
> regardless of excuse the Carrier might make.

Like I said, glad you finally agree with me. If the problem is the carrier's
fault and permanent, he will be let of contract.
 
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In article <KfUkc.62075$Uz1.30250@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,
"Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:

>
> "Robert M." <rmarkoff@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:rmarkoff-CC2CB9.13353701052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...
>
> >
> > Nothing false about getting out of a "contract" if you have no coverage,
> > regardless of excuse the Carrier might make.
>
> Like I said, glad you finally agree with me. If the problem is the carrier's
> fault and permanent, he will be let of contract.

Yes, but most often the carrier will deny fault.
 
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"Robert M." <rmarkoff@msn.com> wrote in message
news:rmarkoff-09AC02.18574701052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...
> In article <KfUkc.62075$Uz1.30250@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,
> "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Robert M." <rmarkoff@msn.com> wrote in message
>> news:rmarkoff-CC2CB9.13353701052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...
>>
>> >
>> > Nothing false about getting out of a "contract" if you have no
>> > coverage,
>> > regardless of excuse the Carrier might make.
>>
>> Like I said, glad you finally agree with me. If the problem is the
>> carrier's
>> fault and permanent, he will be let of contract.
>
> Yes, but most often the carrier will deny fault.

As will the consumer most often. Unfortunately, due to the legalities
involved, it is the consumer which must prove otherwise. If not, the
contract is still a legally binding document, assuming the phone was
subsidized.
 
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In article <NaZkc.3646$983.111@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
"Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:

> If not, the
> contract is still a legally binding document, assuming the phone was
> subsidized.

Again thats the fiction that the cell carriers want you to believe. It
is their wish list many of which have no basis in law and can not be
made to be legally binding.

If you don't have coverage, no judge or jury is going to enforce the
contract, and one hardly needs proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
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"Robert M." <rmarkoff@msn.com> wrote in message
news:rmarkoff-CA3D4E.05360502052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...
> In article <NaZkc.3646$983.111@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
> "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
>
> > If not, the
> > contract is still a legally binding document, assuming the phone was
> > subsidized.
>
> Again thats the fiction that the cell carriers want you to believe. It
> is their wish list many of which have no basis in law and can not be
> made to be legally binding.

The only fiction is your statement above. It does have basis in contract
law, and you need to back up your baseless opinion with fact for once.

>
> If you don't have coverage, no judge or jury is going to enforce the
> contract, and one hardly needs proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Again, not true. If there was no coverage in an area when you signed up for
service, and you did not discover it during the 14 day trial period, legally
you are obligated to the terms of the agreement. However, if the condition
of service deteriorates during the term of the agreement, you may have an
out, but only after informing the carrier of the problem and giving them
time to correct the situation.
 
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"Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote in message
news:M5glc.61165$oN1.43587@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Robert M." <rmarkoff@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:rmarkoff-CA3D4E.05360502052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...
> | In article <NaZkc.3646$983.111@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
> | "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
> |
> | > If not, the
> | > contract is still a legally binding document, assuming the phone was
> | > subsidized.
> |
> | Again thats the fiction that the cell carriers want you to believe. It
> | is their wish list many of which have no basis in law and can not be
> | made to be legally binding.
>
>
> 100% false. If you signed the contract and didn't receive the phone free
or
> at a discounted price, then that is true. It would be wonderful if I
> could go buy a car and finance it through the dealer's finance company,
> drive it for a while, then return it when I decided I found something
> better. Unfortunately, the law doesn't work that way.
>
> The contract signed when purchasing a subsidized phone is and always has
> been a legally binding contract. As long as the Carrier holds up their end
> of the contract, the end user is lawfully required to do the same.
>
> |
> | If you don't have coverage, no judge or jury is going to enforce the
> | contract, and one hardly needs proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
>
> As usual coming from you, 100% false. That is what the trial period is
for.
> The ONLY way the contract is no longer legally binding is if the carrier
has
> done something to change the service in the area. Examples: reduced the
> power, completely taken a tower offline for some reason, switched
> technologies which resulted in a significant difference in range. Without
> the ability for the end user to prove any of the following, the case
likely
> will not ever even be heard by even the smallest of courts.
>
>

Good post. One more thing- a decline in coverage may not indicate a problem
with the carrier. Where coverage was once good at the very fringe of a
site's area, what happens when a six story hotel goes up between you and the
tower? And how would that be the carrier's fault or liability?
 
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"Robert M." <rmarkoff@msn.com> wrote in message
news:rmarkoff-CA3D4E.05360502052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...
| In article <NaZkc.3646$983.111@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
| "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
|
| > If not, the
| > contract is still a legally binding document, assuming the phone was
| > subsidized.
|
| Again thats the fiction that the cell carriers want you to believe. It
| is their wish list many of which have no basis in law and can not be
| made to be legally binding.


100% false. If you signed the contract and didn't receive the phone free or
at a discounted price, then that is true. It would be wonderful if I
could go buy a car and finance it through the dealer's finance company,
drive it for a while, then return it when I decided I found something
better. Unfortunately, the law doesn't work that way.

The contract signed when purchasing a subsidized phone is and always has
been a legally binding contract. As long as the Carrier holds up their end
of the contract, the end user is lawfully required to do the same.

|
| If you don't have coverage, no judge or jury is going to enforce the
| contract, and one hardly needs proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

As usual coming from you, 100% false. That is what the trial period is for.
The ONLY way the contract is no longer legally binding is if the carrier has
done something to change the service in the area. Examples: reduced the
power, completely taken a tower offline for some reason, switched
technologies which resulted in a significant difference in range. Without
the ability for the end user to prove any of the following, the case likely
will not ever even be heard by even the smallest of courts.
 
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"Scott Stephenson" <scott.stephensonson@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:a4ydnXWGT-IGCAjdRVn-hg@adelphia.com...
|
| "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote in message
| news:M5glc.61165$oN1.43587@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
| >
| > "Robert M." <rmarkoff@msn.com> wrote in message
| > news:rmarkoff-CA3D4E.05360502052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...
| > | In article <NaZkc.3646$983.111@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
| > | "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
| > |
| > | > If not, the
| > | > contract is still a legally binding document, assuming the phone was
| > | > subsidized.
| > |
| > | Again thats the fiction that the cell carriers want you to believe. It
| > | is their wish list many of which have no basis in law and can not be
| > | made to be legally binding.
| >
| >
| > 100% false. If you signed the contract and didn't receive the phone free
| or
| > at a discounted price, then that is true. It would be wonderful if I
| > could go buy a car and finance it through the dealer's finance company,
| > drive it for a while, then return it when I decided I found something
| > better. Unfortunately, the law doesn't work that way.
| >
| > The contract signed when purchasing a subsidized phone is and always has
| > been a legally binding contract. As long as the Carrier holds up their
end
| > of the contract, the end user is lawfully required to do the same.
| >
| > |
| > | If you don't have coverage, no judge or jury is going to enforce the
| > | contract, and one hardly needs proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
| >
| > As usual coming from you, 100% false. That is what the trial period is
| for.
| > The ONLY way the contract is no longer legally binding is if the carrier
| has
| > done something to change the service in the area. Examples: reduced the
| > power, completely taken a tower offline for some reason, switched
| > technologies which resulted in a significant difference in range.
Without
| > the ability for the end user to prove any of the following, the case
| likely
| > will not ever even be heard by even the smallest of courts.
| >
| >
|
| Good post. One more thing- a decline in coverage may not indicate a
problem
| with the carrier. Where coverage was once good at the very fringe of a
| site's area, what happens when a six story hotel goes up between you and
the
| tower? And how would that be the carrier's fault or liability?
|

I wouldn't think that the carrier would be liable in that situation. It all
goes back to the "trial period". It is obvious if you are on the edge of
service. If so, it would be a good idea to go with another provider. I am
not sure abou thte legalities behind getting out of contract for that, but I
personally would hold a carrier responsible if I was the one that accepted
the bad coverage to begin with.
 
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"Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote in message
news:ZVglc.11524$983.7630@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>

> |
>
> I wouldn't think that the carrier would be liable in that situation. It
all
> goes back to the "trial period". It is obvious if you are on the edge of
> service. If so, it would be a good idea to go with another provider. I am
> not sure abou thte legalities behind getting out of contract for that, but
I
> personally would hold a carrier responsible if I was the one that accepted
> the bad coverage to begin with.
>
>

Personally 'would' or 'wouldn't' hold a carrier responsible if you were the
one that accepted
the bad coverage to begin with?

In my case, I certainly live on the very edge of coverage (certain areas of
the house are dead) and have everything going against me- I'm at least a
mile and a half away from the nearest tower, which I'm sure is there to
service the major military installations on the other side of the tower.
The terrain between here and the tower is very hilly with established, TALL
vegetation. Bottom line- signal at my house is not guaranteed. Is it the
carrier's fault? Absolutely not- I've learned to live with it. And if a
building goes up between here and the tower that blocks what signal I get,
it won't be the carrier's fault, either.

Anybody that expects coverage to improve at the very edge of already
provided coverage won't always get their wish. In my case, I'm sure that we
are very far down the list for new towers in my area, and I can see the
business logic of that- there are more populous areas that trump my own
needs. There is no guarantee that coverage is going to get better.
 
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"Scott Stephenson" <scott.stephensonson@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:26OdnRbCDdoYOgjdRVn-hg@adelphia.com...
|
| "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote in message
| news:ZVglc.11524$983.7630@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
| >
|
| > |
| >
| > I wouldn't think that the carrier would be liable in that situation. It
| all
| > goes back to the "trial period". It is obvious if you are on the edge of
| > service. If so, it would be a good idea to go with another provider. I
am
| > not sure abou thte legalities behind getting out of contract for that,
but
| I
| > personally would hold a carrier responsible if I was the one that
accepted
| > the bad coverage to begin with.
| >
| >
|
| Personally 'would' or 'wouldn't' hold a carrier responsible if you were
the
| one that accepted
| the bad coverage to begin with?
|
| In my case, I certainly live on the very edge of coverage (certain areas
of
| the house are dead) and have everything going against me- I'm at least a
| mile and a half away from the nearest tower, which I'm sure is there to
| service the major military installations on the other side of the tower.
| The terrain between here and the tower is very hilly with established,
TALL
| vegetation. Bottom line- signal at my house is not guaranteed. Is it the
| carrier's fault? Absolutely not- I've learned to live with it. And if a
| building goes up between here and the tower that blocks what signal I get,
| it won't be the carrier's fault, either.
|
| Anybody that expects coverage to improve at the very edge of already
| provided coverage won't always get their wish. In my case, I'm sure that
we
| are very far down the list for new towers in my area, and I can see the
| business logic of that- there are more populous areas that trump my own
| needs. There is no guarantee that coverage is going to get better.
|

My apologies, that was supposed to read "wouldn't".

I am not on the very edge of a service area at my home, but I am a decent
distance from the closest tower. I do have a signal, but usually only one or
two bars (T616, so 1 or two bars is not that bad <wink>. Equates to about
3/4 signal on most phones even though my reception is better than most). It
is more than enough to make crystal clear calls and I have never dropped one
from my home. The main reason I chose Cingular over Verizon (Verizon has a
tower very very close to my home) was for coverage in areas other than my
house. Verizon will not work in certain areas inside my work, and will not
work at all at my lake house. The other local carriers (Sprint, Suncom,
Nextel, Alltel) where not even considered. Their regional coverage here is
HORRIBLE.
 
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In article <M5glc.61165$oN1.43587@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
"Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:

>
> "Robert M." <rmarkoff@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:rmarkoff-CA3D4E.05360502052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...
> | In article <NaZkc.3646$983.111@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
> | "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
> |
> | > If not, the
> | > contract is still a legally binding document, assuming the phone was
> | > subsidized.
> |
> | Again thats the fiction that the cell carriers want you to believe. It
> | is their wish list many of which have no basis in law and can not be
> | made to be legally binding.
>
>
> 100% false. If you signed the contract and didn't receive the phone free or
> at a discounted price, then that is true. It would be wonderful if I
> could go buy a car and finance it through the dealer's finance company,
> drive it for a while, then return it when I decided I found something
> better. Unfortunately, the law doesn't work that way.

A phone is not a car. And if your car all the sudden flat didnt work,
you'd have the same recourse. You never heard of Lemon laws?
 
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"Robert M." <rmark@msn.com> wrote in message
news:rmark-7AE9BF.20082302052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...
| In article <M5glc.61165$oN1.43587@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
| "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
|
| >
| > "Robert M." <rmarkoff@msn.com> wrote in message
| > news:rmarkoff-CA3D4E.05360502052004@news01.east.earthlink.net...
| > | In article <NaZkc.3646$983.111@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
| > | "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
| > |
| > | > If not, the
| > | > contract is still a legally binding document, assuming the phone was
| > | > subsidized.
| > |
| > | Again thats the fiction that the cell carriers want you to believe. It
| > | is their wish list many of which have no basis in law and can not be
| > | made to be legally binding.
| >
| >
| > 100% false. If you signed the contract and didn't receive the phone free
or
| > at a discounted price, then that is true. It would be wonderful if I
| > could go buy a car and finance it through the dealer's finance company,
| > drive it for a while, then return it when I decided I found something
| > better. Unfortunately, the law doesn't work that way.
|
| A phone is not a car. And if your car all the sudden flat didnt work,
| you'd have the same recourse. You never heard of Lemon laws?

Of course, but this isn't a situation where the phone flat doesn't work. It
is a situation where OP said his phone used to sometimes work in the parking
lot, and now it doesn't. He has admitted it never worked inside his
apartment. Also, if you know anything about lemon laws, you also know that
the dealer is afforded the opportunity to repair the problem three times.
upon repair, if the same EXACT problem occurs three times, then the dealer
must take another course of action. If OP was on the fringe of service to
begin with, which he admittedly was, this is a legal no brainer. Eat the
ETF, or keep the phone and use it inside the service area he was happy
enough with when e signed the legally binding document.
 
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In article <ugslc.81548$Yw5.34953@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
"Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:

> I agree, if something on the carrier's end has changed. Of course as we all
> know and I am the only one dumb enough to try to convince you of, a letter
> to the state's attorney general will be laughed at and thrown away.

Yes, as anyone who has read "alt.cellular.xxx" knows, wrting to one's
States' Attorney General has proven successful for many people, when
cellular Carriers are obstinate, and has not been laughed at or thrown
away.

The common law principle of "Fit for Purpose" applies. They sell you a
phone for cellular service, they can not hold you to a contract if you
have no service.
 
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"Robert M." <rmm@msn.com> wrote in message
news:rmm-1F709A.09530303052004@news4.west.earthlink.net...
> In article <ugslc.81548$Yw5.34953@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
> "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
>
> > I agree, if something on the carrier's end has changed. Of course as we
all
> > know and I am the only one dumb enough to try to convince you of, a
letter
> > to the state's attorney general will be laughed at and thrown away.
>
> Yes, as anyone who has read "alt.cellular.xxx" knows, wrting to one's
> States' Attorney General has proven successful for many people, when
> cellular Carriers are obstinate, and has not been laughed at or thrown
> away.

No- anybody reading these groups knows that its the first thing out of your
mouth. I have seen a mere handful of posts from others saying they have done
it. It has the same effect on a company as a BBB complaint in most states.
>
> The common law principle of "Fit for Purpose" applies. They sell you a
> phone for cellular service, they can not hold you to a contract if you
> have no service.

But no carrier provides balnket coverage. That's what the 14 days are for.
After that, you have agreed to the terms of the Service Agreement.
 
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"Robert M." <robert167@mail.com> wrote in message
news:robert167-34432C.20372204052004@news6.west.earthlink.net...
| Again the contract is just the
| carrier's wish list, and much of it has zero force of law.

All of it is 100% legally binding, and always holds up in court. I guess
this is the end of our discussion since you obviously know nothing of the
legal system.
 
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In article <TLXlc.3400$cb.508@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
"Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:

>
> "Robert M." <robert167@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:robert167-34432C.20372204052004@news6.west.earthlink.net...
> | Again the contract is just the
> | carrier's wish list, and much of it has zero force of law.
>
> All of it is 100% legally binding, and always holds up in court. I guess
> this is the end of our discussion since you obviously know nothing of the
> legal system.

NOPE. Common Law, State Law, Implied warranties takes precedence.


and my son is a high paid lawyer.
 
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"Robert M." <robert167@mail.com> wrote in message
news:robert167-B14BD2.22012404052004@news6.west.earthlink.net...
> In article <TLXlc.3400$cb.508@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
> "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Robert M." <robert167@mail.com> wrote in message
> > news:robert167-34432C.20372204052004@news6.west.earthlink.net...
> > | Again the contract is just the
> > | carrier's wish list, and much of it has zero force of law.
> >
> > All of it is 100% legally binding, and always holds up in court. I guess
> > this is the end of our discussion since you obviously know nothing of
the
> > legal system.
>
> NOPE. Common Law, State Law, Implied warranties takes precedence.
>
>
> and my son is a high paid lawyer.

Which proves that success, like intelligence, is known to skip a generation.

Maybe your son could point us to a single court decision (within the last
year) where a cellular carrier was ordered to change the terms of their
Service Agreement to make it compliant with statute.
 
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"Robert M." <robert167@mail.com> wrote in message
news:robert167-B14BD2.22012404052004@news6.west.earthlink.net...
| In article <TLXlc.3400$cb.508@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
| "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
|
| >
| > "Robert M." <robert167@mail.com> wrote in message
| > news:robert167-34432C.20372204052004@news6.west.earthlink.net...
| > | Again the contract is just the
| > | carrier's wish list, and much of it has zero force of law.
| >
| > All of it is 100% legally binding, and always holds up in court. I guess
| > this is the end of our discussion since you obviously know nothing of
the
| > legal system.
|
| NOPE. Common Law, State Law, Implied warranties takes precedence.
|
|
| and my son is a high paid lawyer.

Then you know the contract is legally binding and does not violate any
common law or implied warranty.
 
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In article <hG4mc.76417$oN1.75095@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
"Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:

>
> "Robert M." <robert167@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:robert167-B14BD2.22012404052004@news6.west.earthlink.net...

>
> Then you know the contract is legally binding and does not violate any
> common law or implied warranty.

Sorry, I know no such thing. Each and every item is open to what any
court of law may rule. Contracts are wish lists from carriers, that they
hope folks will blindly follow. Like you apparently do.

Common Law, State Law, Implied warranties takes precedence. You can't
advertise "Can you hear me now" and then hold people to a contract when
they have no coverage.
 
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"Robert M." <robert156@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:robert156-FEEE41.07141605052004@news6.west.earthlink.net...
| In article <hG4mc.76417$oN1.75095@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
| "Jason Cothran" <reply@board.nomail> wrote:
|
| >
| > "Robert M." <robert167@mail.com> wrote in message
| > news:robert167-B14BD2.22012404052004@news6.west.earthlink.net...
|
| >
| > Then you know the contract is legally binding and does not violate any
| > common law or implied warranty.
|
| Sorry, I know no such thing. Each and every item is open to what any
| court of law may rule. Contracts are wish lists from carriers, that they
| hope folks will blindly follow. Like you apparently do.

100% false

|
| Common Law, State Law, Implied warranties takes precedence. You can't
| advertise "Can you hear me now" and then hold people to a contract when
| they have no coverage.

That is correct, but that is also covered in the contract, and ALWAYS upheld
in court in favor of the legally binding contract. No carrier promises
blanket coverage. He is paying for a service, and is getting the service he
is paying for. He knew there was know signal in his apartment before the
contract was effective, and chose to accept it. The contracts are 100%
legal, as long as the carrier holds up everything on their side of the
bargain. It appears we are going in circles. I and every court know that the
contract is completely legally binding. You apparently wish they weren't and
for some reason think posting it in Usenet will make people believe you.
Hopefully no one with an IQ lower than yours has spent a ton of money on
court costs trying to take a carrier to court. If they have, I know they
wasted no money on the lawyer, so no lawyer would even think of taking the
case.