Capsules types and technologies

G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jean Marie MATHIEU <jm.mathieu@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>This is very interesting
>
>http://www.gefell-mics.com/capsules.htm
>
>Who, except Gefell, make non mylar gold sputtering capsules ?

Nobody else. PVC has poor long-term stability, which is why Neumann gave
up on it years ago. But, there are folks who still like the sound and can
live with the inconsistency and maintenance headaches.

Most U47s today have been reskinned with mylar, because the original PVC
failed. This changes the sound (and many folks love the sound of the
U47 with the brittle PVC diaphragm that is about to fail, too).

>What is the technologie of the Schoeps, Neumann, Josephson etc. and why ?

Almost everyone today is using mylar diaphragms with some sort of metal
sputtering. Mylar is light, consistent, and stable.

Gefell, and some of the measurement microphone people, make a few capsules
using very thin nickel foils, with no plastic backing. Schoeps also did
this in the 1950s but no longer does. The original technique for this dates
back to the Western Electric 640AA.

A small American manufacturer whose name I won't mention is using aluminum
capacitor foil for a diaphragm. This has a very high mass and results in
poor high frequency response.

These are the only exceptions I know of.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message news:<copuib$58p$1@panix2.panix.com>...
> Jean Marie MATHIEU <jm.mathieu@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> >This is very interesting
> >
> >http://www.gefell-mics.com/capsules.htm
> >
> >Who, except Gefell, make non mylar gold sputtering capsules ?
>
> Nobody else. PVC has poor long-term stability, which is why Neumann gave
> up on it years ago.

In 1960 or so, actually.

> But, there are folks who still like the sound and can
> live with the inconsistency and maintenance headaches.
>
> Most U47s today have been reskinned with mylar, because the original PVC
> failed. This changes the sound (and many folks love the sound of the
> U47 with the brittle PVC diaphragm that is about to fail, too).
>
> >What is the technologie of the Schoeps, Neumann, Josephson etc. and why ?
>
> Almost everyone today is using mylar diaphragms with some sort of metal
> sputtering. Mylar is light, consistent, and stable.

Just for the record: Mylar is a brand name for a type of polyester.
>
> Gefell, and some of the measurement microphone people, make a few capsules
> using very thin nickel foils, with no plastic backing. Schoeps also did
> this in the 1950s but no longer does. The original technique for this dates
> back to the Western Electric 640AA.

Neumann makes the K33 capsule, used in the TLM 50 and M 150
microphones. The original version had a nickel membrane, and now they
are using titanium.

Some (or perhaps all) of the capsules made by Sanken use titanium
membranes.
>
> A small American manufacturer whose name I won't mention is using aluminum
> capacitor foil for a diaphragm. This has a very high mass and results in
> poor high frequency response.
>
> These are the only exceptions I know of.
> --scott

Hmm... I can only guess to whom you are refering...

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:copuib$58p$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Jean Marie MATHIEU <jm.mathieu@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>>This is very interesting
>>
>>http://www.gefell-mics.com/capsules.htm
>>
>>Who, except Gefell, make non mylar gold sputtering capsules ?
>
> Nobody else. PVC has poor long-term stability, which is why Neumann gave
> up on it years ago. But, there are folks who still like the sound and can
> live with the inconsistency and maintenance headaches.
>
> Most U47s today have been reskinned with mylar, because the original PVC
> failed. This changes the sound (and many folks love the sound of the
> U47 with the brittle PVC diaphragm that is about to fail, too).
>
>>What is the technologie of the Schoeps, Neumann, Josephson etc. and why ?
>
> Almost everyone today is using mylar diaphragms with some sort of metal
> sputtering. Mylar is light, consistent, and stable.
>
> Gefell, and some of the measurement microphone people, make a few capsules
> using very thin nickel foils, with no plastic backing.

Ty was telling me, when we had a nice chat on the phone awhile back, about a
Gefell omni mic that had a nickel diaphragm... can't remember the model, but
I remember him being quite impressed with it. I don't believe I've
personally ever heard any mics with nickel capsules - anyone have any
opinions on what type of colorations one can expect from nickel? Or is it
more dependant on the nickel, plus the electronics/overall design of the
mic?

Neil Henderson
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Neil Henderson" <neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:ED7sd.40508$Al3.37205@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:copuib$58p$1@panix2.panix.com...
> > Jean Marie MATHIEU <jm.mathieu@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> >>This is very interesting
> >>
> >>http://www.gefell-mics.com/capsules.htm
> >>
> >>Who, except Gefell, make non mylar gold sputtering capsules ?
> >
> > Nobody else. PVC has poor long-term stability, which is why Neumann
gave
> > up on it years ago. But, there are folks who still like the sound and
can
> > live with the inconsistency and maintenance headaches.
> >
> > Most U47s today have been reskinned with mylar, because the original PVC
> > failed. This changes the sound (and many folks love the sound of the
> > U47 with the brittle PVC diaphragm that is about to fail, too).
> >
> >>What is the technologie of the Schoeps, Neumann, Josephson etc. and why
?
> >
> > Almost everyone today is using mylar diaphragms with some sort of metal
> > sputtering. Mylar is light, consistent, and stable.
> >
> > Gefell, and some of the measurement microphone people, make a few
capsules
> > using very thin nickel foils, with no plastic backing.
>
> Ty was telling me, when we had a nice chat on the phone awhile back, about
a
> Gefell omni mic that had a nickel diaphragm... can't remember the model,
but
> I remember him being quite impressed with it. I don't believe I've
> personally ever heard any mics with nickel capsules - anyone have any
> opinions on what type of colorations one can expect from nickel? Or is it
> more dependant on the nickel, plus the electronics/overall design of the
> mic?
>
> Neil Henderson


There are still individuals in Germany who refurbish nickel capsules. I have
a M62, small diaphraghm cardioid nickel capsule, freshly refurbished by a
retired Neumann (Gefell?) employee. At least I was told so by a friend of
mine who I got it from. I have no reason to doubt his words.

On my refurbished and modded M582 it sounds very airy and bright, in the
most positive way. The best I've heard so far on acoustic guitar, for
example. It also pulls the vocals out of a hopelessly crowded arrangement
like nothing else I've tried. I have no other capsules, though and therefore
can't say how much it depends on the M582 body.

Predrag
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Predrag Trpkov <predrag.trpkovNeSpamu@ri.htnet.hr> wrote:
>
>There are still individuals in Germany who refurbish nickel capsules. I have
>a M62, small diaphraghm cardioid nickel capsule, freshly refurbished by a
>retired Neumann (Gefell?) employee. At least I was told so by a friend of
>mine who I got it from. I have no reason to doubt his words.

Who does these?

The real problem with the Schoeps 221b nickel-diaphragm mike is that nobody
seems to be able to rebuild the capsules so when the mikes do eventually
fail, they fail totally.

GRAS used to rebuild the Bruel and Kjaer capsules... I have a box of 4155
capsules that I have bought used and every single one of them is noisy.
Anyone that could rebuild these at a reasonable price would be someone I
would like to talk to, because GRAS is out of that business now.

>On my refurbished and modded M582 it sounds very airy and bright, in the
>most positive way. The best I've heard so far on acoustic guitar, for
>example. It also pulls the vocals out of a hopelessly crowded arrangement
>like nothing else I've tried. I have no other capsules, though and therefore
>can't say how much it depends on the M582 body.

I have always liked the 1" nickel measurement capsules for recording work,
and I really should try the newer Gefell nickel recording mikes.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Neil Henderson wrote:

> I don't believe I've personally ever heard any mics with nickel
> capsules - anyone have any opinions on what type of colorations
> one can expect from nickel? Or is it more dependant on the nickel,
> plus the electronics/overall design of the mic?

Those are good questions, and I wish more people would try to find
real-world answers rather than just making assumptions.

The Microtech Gefell site emphasizes the practical aspects of various
membrane materials for specific applications. It touts the company's
versatility as a manufacturer, and the continuity that results from their
use of Georg Neumann's original 1928 capsule design in some retro models.
But they don't make a major issue over any alleged sonic characteristics
of particular membrane materials--and I think they're right not to do so.

I have a pair of 1960s-era tube microphones in which one capsule still
has its original nickel membrane while the other was fitted with a new
Mylar membrane at the factory. The capsules aren't perfectly matched,
but are as close in sound as any other unmatched pair of their type
would ordinarily be. The nickel capsule doesn't have any "metallic"
character, nor any other sonic "fingerprint" that its Mylar counterpart
lacks, nor vice versa. Though they're not absolutely identical I would
still be quite surprised if anyone could ever specifically identify the
membrane material by sound--anyway, I sure can't. I'd even have to do
some digging in the paperwork to figure out which one is which any more.

Some people seem to assume that the diaphragm is always the main factor
in determining a capsule's sonic characteristics--and that "naturally,"
nickel diaphragms would sound brighter than Mylar (and similarly, that
ultra-thin diaphragms would "naturally" have audibly superior transient
response and/or high-frequency response). But once a diaphragm has been
tensioned so that its resonance is optimal for the capsule's design, its
response within the audio band is controlled far more by the air around
it than by the intrinsic characteristics of the diaphragm per se. (That's
assuming, of course, that the material isn't, like, wood or something.)

The membranes get public attention--there are endless debates on various
boards concerning center-fixed designs versus edge-fixed, as well as
different materials and thicknesses. Those things do matter somewhat.
But at best, the diaphragm responds to the air around it, so what really
matters most is the exact way in which that invisible, free stuff is
affected by sound waves, or is prevented from responding to them.

It's a little like the way magicians can do tricks by the most ordinary
of means, as long as the audience is distracted from seeing what they're
really doing. The backplate and the acoustical chambers surrounding it
(between the backplate and the diaphragm, and also behind the backplate)
are a lot of where art and science meet in microphone design. Meanwhile
we've all been trained to keep our eye on the diaphragm(s). No wonder
so many audiophiles approach microphone design as if it were magic ...
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5 Dec 2004 09:32:03 -0500, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

---------------------8<---------------------
>GRAS used to rebuild the Bruel and Kjaer capsules... I have a box of 4155
>capsules that I have bought used and every single one of them is noisy.
>Anyone that could rebuild these at a reasonable price would be someone I
>would like to talk to, because GRAS is out of that business now.
-----------------8<------------------------
>I have always liked the 1" nickel measurement capsules for recording work,
>and I really should try the newer Gefell nickel recording mikes.
>--scott


--Scott, I would like to know something more about that noisy 4155s.
As I know, the body is monel, the membrane is nickel (quartz covered
at same variants) and the backplate is monel in a quartz insulating
ring. Now what is with the pressure equalization at that capsules? --
I think the very tiny silver wire, inserted in the in the capillary
for equalization tuning purposes, _might_ get oxidized over the time
and this disturb the free air flow. As to the membrane, did the
resonant frequency remain about the same over the time (----> possible
ageing changes in the membrane)?

-- I've read about how a very known company would, in earliest days,
make thin microphone membranes: they would dissolve a plastics in
alcohol, then sip the mixture onto destilled water in a container of
an appropriate diameter, and finally they'd let the alcohol evaporate.
Now that was an ingeniously brilliant procedure.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Edi Zubovic <edi.zubovic[rem this].@ri.htnet.hr> wrote:
>
>--Scott, I would like to know something more about that noisy 4155s.
>As I know, the body is monel, the membrane is nickel (quartz covered
>at same variants) and the backplate is monel in a quartz insulating
>ring. Now what is with the pressure equalization at that capsules? --
>I think the very tiny silver wire, inserted in the in the capillary
>for equalization tuning purposes, _might_ get oxidized over the time
>and this disturb the free air flow. As to the membrane, did the
>resonant frequency remain about the same over the time (----> possible
>ageing changes in the membrane)?

The resonant frequency has not changed, and that is really the wonderful
thing about these. The long-term stability is very good. The thing is
that, because the diaphragms are so thin, they invariably have a couple
pinholes in them and that is how I think contaminants are getting back
there. At least, that's the only real mechanism I can think of.

The problems I am having are all clearly due to contamination, since heating
the capsules up will solve the problems briefly.

The silver wire should oxidize almost immediately, but that should not
change anything. Tarnish is just fine.
>
>-- I've read about how a very known company would, in earliest days,
>make thin microphone membranes: they would dissolve a plastics in
>alcohol, then sip the mixture onto destilled water in a container of
>an appropriate diameter, and finally they'd let the alcohol evaporate.
>Now that was an ingeniously brilliant procedure.

I had not heard that. I know that many of the nickel foils were made by
plating on gelatin, then washing the gelatin off.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> A small American manufacturer whose name I won't mention is using
aluminum
> capacitor foil for a diaphragm.

> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
What is done to keep the aluminum from oxidizing?

Thanks,
Peter
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> A small American manufacturer whose name I won't mention is using
aluminum
> capacitor foil for a diaphragm.

> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
What is done to keep the aluminum from oxidizing?

Thanks,
Peter
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<thecatspjamas@aol.com> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> A small American manufacturer whose name I won't mention is using
>aluminum
>> capacitor foil for a diaphragm.
>
>What is done to keep the aluminum from oxidizing?

Nothing. Although come to think of it, this isn't all that serious a problem
with ribbon microphones... the ribbons don't get white and crusty at all,
even after decades. I don't know if the condenser would have more of a problem
since the materials is thinner, or not.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cp2qt2$eoh$1@panix2.panix.com
> <thecatspjamas@aol.com> wrote:
>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>>> A small American manufacturer whose name I won't mention is using
>> aluminum
>>> capacitor foil for a diaphragm.
>>
>> What is done to keep the aluminum from oxidizing?
>
> Nothing. Although come to think of it, this isn't all that serious a
> problem with ribbon microphones... the ribbons don't get white and
> crusty at all, even after decades. I don't know if the condenser
> would have more of a problem since the materials is thinner, or not.

Anodizing?
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> <thecatspjamas@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A small American manufacturer whose name I won't mention is using
>>
>>aluminum
>>
>>>capacitor foil for a diaphragm.
>>
>>What is done to keep the aluminum from oxidizing?
>
>
> Nothing. Although come to think of it, this isn't all that serious a problem
> with ribbon microphones... the ribbons don't get white and crusty at all,
> even after decades. I don't know if the condenser would have more of a problem
> since the materials is thinner, or not.

I'll bet that wouldn't be true near a sea shore. I had the
original one panel Magneplanars and they had aluminum wire
on the tweeter that worked great for years until I moved to
a shore house on Dauphin Island in the Gulf of Mexico and
they were each corroded through in one place in a couple of
months. When I set out to repair them about six months
later the breaks were numerous. Replaced it all with fine
copper and Elmer's glue and couldn't hear a difference that
I could remember.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 6 Dec 2004 11:00:41 -0500, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:


>The resonant frequency has not changed, and that is really the wonderful
>thing about these.
-- That's good.

> The long-term stability is very good. The thing is
>that, because the diaphragms are so thin, they invariably have a couple
>pinholes in them and that is how I think contaminants are getting back
>there. At least, that's the only real mechanism I can think of.

Hmm, or the membranes has been once removed in dirty enviroment. I
must say that here, I consider a "dirty enviroment" anything but a
clean room. The gap between the membrane and the backplate is merely
20 micrometers. A close-up inspection using a microscope would perhaps
reveal something if there are pinholes. However, I think that metal
membranes are much more tolerant to possible sparks or so.

>The problems I am having are all clearly due to contamination, since heating
>the capsules up will solve the problems briefly.

Do Monel and nickel have approx. close temperature coeffitients? -- I
think so. When you warm up the assembly, the gap widens and particles
of contamination don't make physical contact. Yes, it seems quite
logical.
>The silver wire should oxidize almost immediately, but that should not
>change anything. Tarnish is just fine.

Oh yes. I forgot that silver oxidation from the air is not
progressive.
----------------8<----------------------

Scott, maybe you could see who is servicing Western Electric capsules
like WE 640 A in the U.S. They might be qualified to servicing yours
too (I think these should be either B&K types 4144 or 4145).

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

PS. Do you have some Pistonphone or electostatic calibrating actuator
for these as well?
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Edi Zubovic <edi.zubovic[rem this].@ri.htnet.hr> wrote:
>
>Scott, maybe you could see who is servicing Western Electric capsules
>like WE 640 A in the U.S. They might be qualified to servicing yours
>too (I think these should be either B&K types 4144 or 4145).

As far as I know, there is nobody in the US who can repair a 640A
capsule. B&K makes a 640A replacement that can be retrofitted onto an
old 640A, I think, but a bad 640A capule is gonr.

>PS. Do you have some Pistonphone or electostatic calibrating actuator
>for these as well?

I have an ancient GenRad pistonphone, which is actually not bad at all.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cov653$1jo$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Predrag Trpkov <predrag.trpkovNeSpamu@ri.htnet.hr> wrote:
> >
> >There are still individuals in Germany who refurbish nickel capsules. I
have
> >a M62, small diaphraghm cardioid nickel capsule, freshly refurbished by a
> >retired Neumann (Gefell?) employee. At least I was told so by a friend of
> >mine who I got it from. I have no reason to doubt his words.
>
> Who does these?

I sent the email to that friend of mine and asked that directly, but he
skilfully avoided answering the question. Sorry.

Predrag
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 23:16:47 +0100, "Predrag Trpkov"
<predrag.trpkovNeSpamu@ri.htnet.hr> wrote:

>
>"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:cov653$1jo$1@panix2.panix.com...
>> Predrag Trpkov <predrag.trpkovNeSpamu@ri.htnet.hr> wrote:
>> >
>> >There are still individuals in Germany who refurbish nickel capsules. I
>have
>> >a M62, small diaphraghm cardioid nickel capsule, freshly refurbished by a
>> >retired Neumann (Gefell?) employee. At least I was told so by a friend of
>> >mine who I got it from. I have no reason to doubt his words.
>>
>> Who does these?
>
>I sent the email to that friend of mine and asked that directly, but he
>skilfully avoided answering the question. Sorry.
>
>Predrag

It was probably done by Gefell in the former Eastern Germany, who made
the capsule. However I'm sure they will only deal with their own mics
not ones made by anyone else.

Al
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
> news:31ki0uF3c153cU1@individual.net
> > "Arny Krueger"
> >> "Scott Dorsey"
> > <thecatspjamas@aol.com>
> >>
> >>>>> A small American manufacturer whose name I won't mention is
using
> >>>> aluminum capacitor foil for a diaphragm.
> >>>>
> >>>> What is done to keep the aluminum from oxidizing?
> >>>
> >>> Nothing. Although come to think of it, this isn't all that
serious
> >>> a problem with ribbon microphones... the ribbons don't get white
and
> >>> crusty at all, even after decades. I don't know if the condenser
> >>> would have more of a problem since the materials is thinner, or
not.
> >>
> >> Anodizing?
> >
> >
> >
> > ** Anodizing = a layer of insulation.
>
> Agreed, but that just means you don't anodize the attachment points.

I don't know how well anodizing would work. It hardens the surface and
makes it much thicker than the layer of aluminum it is replacing. It's
typically used on surfaces much thicker than this because of the amount
of material needed to complete the process. For something this thin I
would expect the whole foil to turn to oxide.

Also I wonder if the dielectric properties of an oxide layer would
effect the capacitance between the diaphragm and the backplate.
Peter
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey"
>
> A small American manufacturer whose name I won't mention is using aluminum
> capacitor foil for a diaphragm. This has a very high mass and results in
> poor high frequency response.
>


** So aluminised Mylar film as used in polyester capacitors has high mass
??

Just like LM301s have lots of crossover distortion - Dorsey has gone dead
silent on that one.

Dorsey is actually not sure about any damn thing - but just loves to
spread misinformation and waste other folk's time and money.



............ Phil