Card/Omni Mic For Newbie Bluegrassers

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Friends of mine who are infected by the bluegrass bug need a mic for
practices and for the one-mic-for-all SR approach. What's omni/card
swithcable and decent for the money, besides the A-T 4050 (and is that
mic better or worse than its 4050CM predecessor)?

TIA

--
ha
 
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How about a second-hand Geffel UM70? If you can find one.

Al

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:08:01 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
wrote:

>Friends of mine who are infected by the bluegrass bug need a mic for
>practices and for the one-mic-for-all SR approach. What's omni/card
>swithcable and decent for the money, besides the A-T 4050 (and is that
>mic better or worse than its 4050CM predecessor)?
>
>TIA
 
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Have a look at this one...
http://www.shure.com/microphones/models/ksm141.asp

Rgds:
Eric

"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1greeeo.17x43o21x00sa8N%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> Friends of mine who are infected by the bluegrass bug need a mic for
> practices and for the one-mic-for-all SR approach. What's omni/card
> swithcable and decent for the money, besides the A-T 4050 (and is that
> mic better or worse than its 4050CM predecessor)?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> ha
 
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>From: walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
>Date: 2/3/05 11:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <1greeeo.17x43o21x00sa8N%walkinay@thegrid.net>
>
>Friends of mine who are infected by the bluegrass bug need a mic for
>practices and for the one-mic-for-all SR approach. What's omni/card
>swithcable and decent for the money, besides the A-T 4050 (and is that
>mic better or worse than its 4050CM predecessor)?
>

I like my AT 4047sv, of coarse it's not switched and it does have some
rejection to the side's. Maybe they can rent/borrow one from some where and
give it a try. I think that an AKG 414 would be the best pick if they can save
up there cash.
 
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Raymond <bruwhaha58097238@aol.com> wrote:
>>From: walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
>>Date: 2/3/05 11:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
>>Message-id: <1greeeo.17x43o21x00sa8N%walkinay@thegrid.net>
>>
>>Friends of mine who are infected by the bluegrass bug need a mic for
>>practices and for the one-mic-for-all SR approach. What's omni/card
>>swithcable and decent for the money, besides the A-T 4050 (and is that
>>mic better or worse than its 4050CM predecessor)?
>
>I like my AT 4047sv, of coarse it's not switched and it does have some
>rejection to the side's. Maybe they can rent/borrow one from some where and
>give it a try. I think that an AKG 414 would be the best pick if they can save
>up there cash.

The 4047 has a hugely peaked up top end which would seem a problem for
feedback reduction. On the other hand, it also has something closer to
a hypercardioid pattern with some major low end rejection 120' off the
main axis, which might actually be a plus.

I think I'd actually recommend a small diaphragm mike for this sort of
thing, because the more accurate off-axis response is going to make for
better feedback rejection.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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I've used a bunch of different model mic's of varying brand/quality for
this: Rode, Audio Technica, Neumann, etc. The Neumanns out perform
everything else by far, U87 being best, TLM-193 a close second. Pretty much
any cardioid large diaphragm condenser will work (you don't need an omni for
live stuff unless half the band wants to be back-on to the audience), but
the cheaper ones don't sound as good; if they can't afford to buy a nice
one, they're probably better off renting one when they need it.

"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1greeeo.17x43o21x00sa8N%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> Friends of mine who are infected by the bluegrass bug need a mic for
> practices and for the one-mic-for-all SR approach. What's omni/card
> swithcable and decent for the money, besides the A-T 4050 (and is that
> mic better or worse than its 4050CM predecessor)?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> ha
 
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On one occasion, with the Nashville Bluegrass Band, I used a crossed XY pair
of Neumann KM-84s. Got me a very wide cardioid pattern which suited their
needs perfectly.

Peace,
Paul
 
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KM-84s are rather susceptible to plosives, so these may not be the best
depending on how close the singer will be getting to the mic. A lot of
old "one mic" bluegrass recordings have the soloists or singer getting
right up there....My two cents....

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

Paul Stamler wrote:
> On one occasion, with the Nashville Bluegrass Band, I used a crossed XY pair
> of Neumann KM-84s. Got me a very wide cardioid pattern which suited their
> needs perfectly.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
>
 
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"Paul Stamler" <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:22wMd.144342$w62.124591@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> On one occasion, with the Nashville Bluegrass Band, I used a crossed XY
pair
> of Neumann KM-84s. Got me a very wide cardioid pattern which suited their
> needs perfectly.
>
Were you able to pick up Dennis' bass like that?

--
Dave Martin
Nashville, TN
 
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hank alrich wrote:
> Friends of mine who are infected by the bluegrass bug need a mic for
> practices and for the one-mic-for-all SR approach. What's omni/card
> swithcable and decent for the money, besides the A-T 4050 (and is
that
> mic better or worse than its 4050CM predecessor)?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> ha


A large part of the allure of using the technique
is the visual appeal of singing/playing into a
fire hydrant size stage prop ;-}
Scott (and others will) suggest small diaphram
pair and this would sound as good or better but
you lose the vibe of the traditional setting.
Figure 8 pattern is often used, depending on the size
of the group. I've not used the AT4050 but it has the
fig 8, like the AKG c414. The square shape of the 414
is helpful onstage because it gives a quick visual
reference of when the performer is 'on'. This can
be important when a group gets to the point where
the performance is choreographed to bring the vocal
or soloist up front.
If the 4050cm5 is not out of the budget, I would
certainly give that and the C414 a try.

rd
 
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"Trevor de Clercq" <declerct@NOSPAMATIONnewschool.edu> wrote in message
news:1107474365.310fc9296131d146aa20f8d72008dbfa@teranews...
> KM-84s are rather susceptible to plosives, so these may not be the best
> depending on how close the singer will be getting to the mic. A lot of
> old "one mic" bluegrass recordings have the soloists or singer getting
> right up there....My two cents....

That's for sure, but the Nashville Bluegrass Band uses these at waist level,
with one cardioid up at mouth level. It's not really a one-mic setup, but it
still retains the old-style choreography.

Peace,
Paul

> Paul Stamler wrote:
> > On one occasion, with the Nashville Bluegrass Band, I used a crossed XY
pair
> > of Neumann KM-84s. Got me a very wide cardioid pattern which suited
their
> > needs perfectly.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Paul
> >
> >
 
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"Dave Martin" <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:FpAMd.9095$S3.8397@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "Paul Stamler" <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:22wMd.144342$w62.124591@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > On one occasion, with the Nashville Bluegrass Band, I used a crossed XY
> pair
> > of Neumann KM-84s. Got me a very wide cardioid pattern which suited
their
> > needs perfectly.
> >
> Were you able to pick up Dennis' bass like that?

Yup. He stood about 3 feet back, and everyone dodged around him.

Peace,
Paul
 
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RD Jones <annonn@juno.com> wrote:
>is the visual appeal of singing/playing into a
>fire hydrant size stage prop ;-}
>Scott (and others will) suggest small diaphram
>pair and this would sound as good or better but
>you lose the vibe of the traditional setting.

So, put the small diaphragm pair into one of the AEA cases that look
like an RCA 44. That has all the vibe you'll ever need.

Or use small diaphragm mikes that look big, like the 4033 or those
Shure things.

Or use a real RCA 44. They sound good, and have surprisingly good
gain before feedback in a PA setting.
--scott


--
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Paul Stamler wrote:

> That's for sure, but the Nashville Bluegrass Band uses these at waist level,
> with one cardioid up at mouth level. It's not really a one-mic setup, but it
> still retains the old-style choreography.

These folks are about as far as we can get from NBG level of experience.
I know these people vey well, and honestly, I know what I'm about here.
There will be only one mic to start with. It will be at least switchable
between omni and card. After forty+ years of SR, I do know that omni is
not a live reinforcement choice. But omni is what they are going to use
to record their practices in order to learn how to get themselves
balanced well enough to do that live with the mic in cardioid.

The focus of my query is: what's newer and better for not more money
than an AT4050, which has been used successfully in this type of context
many times? I can get them one of those and not worry about it. It's not
really a large cap mic, but consequently, it's also slightly less ragged
off-axis.

But if someone knows of a better mic _for this particular application_,
in the exact manner I have presented it, I'd like to know about it. <g>
We're not going to Neumann's, X/Y, etc., with these people at this time.
Banjos and dobros and such already present them with a full-on
educational plate. Their recording is to help speed that education.

Y'all have no idea how long and how gently I will have to work with
these dear friends to guide them toward relaxed and useful
self-recording. <g> But that's what I'm about here.

--
ha
 
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

> RD Jones wrote:
> >is the visual appeal of singing/playing into a
> >fire hydrant size stage prop ;-}
> >Scott (and others will) suggest small diaphram
> >pair and this would sound as good or better but
> >you lose the vibe of the traditional setting.

> So, put the small diaphragm pair into one of the AEA cases that look
> like an RCA 44. That has all the vibe you'll ever need.

> Or use small diaphragm mikes that look big, like the 4033 or those
> Shure things.

> Or use a real RCA 44. They sound good, and have surprisingly good
> gain before feedback in a PA setting.

See my reply to Paul's post this morning... <g> These people are nowhere
near ready to be worrying about their visual appeal.

--
ha
 
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"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1grgd0z.3ckn37m89w10N%walkinay@thegrid.net...

> The focus of my query is: what's newer and better for not more money
> than an AT4050, which has been used successfully in this type of context
> many times? I can get them one of those and not worry about it. It's not
> really a large cap mic, but consequently, it's also slightly less ragged
> off-axis.
>
> But if someone knows of a better mic _for this particular application_,
> in the exact manner I have presented it, I'd like to know about it. <g>
> We're not going to Neumann's, X/Y, etc., with these people at this time.
> Banjos and dobros and such already present them with a full-on
> educational plate. Their recording is to help speed that education.

Perhaps a Rode NT2A?

Peace,
Paul
 
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hank alrich <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:
> Paul Stamler wrote:

> The focus of my query is: what's newer and better for not more money
> than an AT4050, which has been used successfully in this type of context
> many times? I can get them one of those and not worry about it. It's not
> really a large cap mic, but consequently, it's also slightly less ragged
> off-axis.

> But if someone knows of a better mic _for this particular application_,
> in the exact manner I have presented it, I'd like to know about it. <g>
> We're not going to Neumann's, X/Y, etc., with these people at this time.
> Banjos and dobros and such already present them with a full-on
> educational plate. Their recording is to help speed that education.

> Y'all have no idea how long and how gently I will have to work with
> these dear friends to guide them toward relaxed and useful
> self-recording. <g> But that's what I'm about here.

Hank...correct me if I am wrong....you have a BLUE Lolly/451. Have
you tried this? In my experience it is a fairly wide pattern cardioid.
It does really well with instruments that are several feet away. I can
see only two possible problems: Will it have enough low end response?
And I think that is gets weird off-axis in the very very near field.

Or are we pricing to high at this point?

Rob R.
 
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Rob Reedijk wrote:

> hank alrich wrote:
> > Paul Stamler wrote:

> > The focus of my query is: what's newer and better for not more money
> > than an AT4050, which has been used successfully in this type of context
> > many times? I can get them one of those and not worry about it. It's not
> > really a large cap mic, but consequently, it's also slightly less ragged
> > off-axis.

> > But if someone knows of a better mic _for this particular application_,
> > in the exact manner I have presented it, I'd like to know about it. <g>
> > We're not going to Neumann's, X/Y, etc., with these people at this time.
> > Banjos and dobros and such already present them with a full-on
> > educational plate. Their recording is to help speed that education.

> > Y'all have no idea how long and how gently I will have to work with
> > these dear friends to guide them toward relaxed and useful
> > self-recording. <g> But that's what I'm about here.

> Hank...correct me if I am wrong....you have a BLUE Lolly/451. Have
> you tried this? In my experience it is a fairly wide pattern cardioid.

Indeed!

> It does really well with instruments that are several feet away.

It sure does. One of my best-ever acoustic guitar sounds was captured in
a hurry by putting the B6/C451 at arm's length, literally, and
playing/singing some tunes wihtout checking what I was getting, mic
positioning, anything. It didn't amtter, all I needed was content. I got
a lot more than that.

> I can see only two possible problems: Will it have enough low end
> response? And I think that is gets weird off-axis in the very very near
> field.

Monte McGuire once mentioned the B6's pattern here; I emailed him
asking, semi-jokingly, "What pattern?" It is both pretty danged wide,
and a bit weird off-axis, but so very sweet on-axis.

> Or are we pricing to high at this point?

They would buy what I tell them to, but the point is this isn't going to
be handled by me. They live across the county and need their own stuff.
I'm their good friend and coach here, gave the guy his first banjo
lessons, am helping the gal understand that dobro, indeed bluegrass or
any kind of folk music, is not some kind of deeply intellectual
exercise, that one must first do, and therefrom develop questions, not
the other way 'round, and so forth.

They will be tracking into a Tascam DP-01FX ("without all the freakin'
menus" - this recorder was designed for these folks <g>), at first just
mono, whole-band for practice, and thereafter a little overdubbing at
home to develop harmonies.

Their performances are casual things, done mostly for hometown medical
benefits and parties. They had a band memeber who wents nuts buying
stuff, spent maybe $20K on PA, recording gear, and then wound up too
busy to commute from the nearest large city to play with them. So their
guitar player has bought herself a PA and some recording gear, but she
also lives in that nearby city, so they need a small recording rig for
their practices and one mic that is better than the B1 the guitar player
bought for stage work.

--
ha
 
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On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:38:17 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
wrote:

> But omni is what they are going to use
>to record their practices in order to learn how to get themselves
>balanced well enough to do that live with the mic in cardioid.

OK, I'm confused, but that's not so unusual. They are going to
practice with one pattern, in order to learn how to use a different
pattern? I'd appreciate it if you would elaborate on this; perhaps I
just interpreted your post incorrectly. I've always been a big
advocate of 'simulating that which one might be dealing with live'
during rehearsals.

>The focus of my query is: what's newer and better for not more money
>than an AT4050, which has been used successfully in this type of context
>many times? I can get them one of those and not worry about it.

Methinks you have answered your own question. Why reinvent the wheel,
especially in context of the situation you have described? Do you like
to worry?

>But if someone knows of a better mic _for this particular application_,
>in the exact manner I have presented it, I'd like to know about it.

Of course, you are going to get opinions about this. When someone
comes on here and asks something like "the singer is a lot like
Jagger, is there a better mic than a 58?"... the opinions pour in.
And, some of the suggestions may indeed be better than the 58, maybe.
However, doesn't the general consensus normally end up being along the
lines of "just use the damn 58, it works, it has been successfully
used within that context, and in a year or several, after you may
have exhausted all the possibilities and figured out all of the
limitations of the 58 then you may have a better idea as to what you
are looking for in a mic, for your situation." Your buddies are
obviously not preparing for a national tour wherein the performances
will only be attended by audio critics.

To address your question which has so far been unaddressed, at least
on my newserver;
I have an AT 4050CM5, and have never had a chance to compare it to any
other 4050, so I have no idea what the differences might or might not
be. (Hey, I didn't say I was gonna answer it, just address it....)

>Y'all have no idea how long and how gently I will have to work with
>these dear friends to guide them toward relaxed and useful
>self-recording.

Oh, I think I might have an idea.
You ever attempted inseminating a cow with a pyrex cylinder full of
grand champion bull sperm?


====================
Tracy Wintermute
arrgh@greenapple.com
Rushcreek Ranch
====================
 
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In article <62r801hoachk9sugr61b3i4ao6mncpgs8d@4ax.com> arrgh@greenapple.com writes:

> On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:38:17 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
> wrote:
>
> > But omni is what they are going to use
> >to record their practices in order to learn how to get themselves
> >balanced well enough to do that live with the mic in cardioid.
>
> OK, I'm confused, but that's not so unusual. They are going to
> practice with one pattern, in order to learn how to use a different
> pattern?

I didn't get that either, but I figured that either:

- They already had an omni mic or
- Hank was tired


At Banjo Camp North, for the last couple of years, we've been using
one of the Shure large-case-diaphragm-size-cleverly-disguised cardioid
mics for people to gather around, and it works just fine. The guy who
brings the mics (not me) keeps buying cheaper and cheaper ones. We
started with a KSM-44 (multi-pattern), next time used a KSM-32, and
last time we used a KSM-27. There wasn't an appreciable difference _in
this situation_. The mic is surprisingly non-critical. What's critical
is the placement, and that's up to the band.

Hank, I'd tell them to get a KSM-27 and practice with that.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 

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