Damn you, Survivor!!

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First ep of Survivor was on last night, AGAIN not recorded in HD. It's
a PERFECT venue for HD, out in the jungle/ocean and a couple of hot
babes.
 

curmudgeon

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Larry Bud wrote:
> First ep of Survivor was on last night, AGAIN not recorded in HD. It's
> a PERFECT venue for HD, out in the jungle/ocean and a couple of hot
> babes.
>
Bad shows look even worse in HD. Count your blessings.
 

norm

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How much are those Sony prosumer 3 chippers? $4000 with XLRs and all that
stuff you really need. Editors are computers nowadays. My buddy can shoot on
those little deals and edit in HD at home. Whats CBS's excuse? HD doesn't
make any broadcasters any money so the really could care less.
Norm
 
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Ryan Lago (ryan.lago@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> >How much are those Sony prosumer 3 chippers? $4000 with XLRs and all that
> >stuff you really need. Editors are computers nowadays. My buddy can shoot on
> >those little deals and edit in HD at home.
>
> There is no prosumer HD cam that produces editable material.

All of them seem to output HDV, and I know of at least two fairly
inexpensive programs that can handle that format (Adobe Premiere Pro and
Pinnacle Studio Plus 10). You can get Pinnacle for less than $100.

--
Jeff Rife | "I've never understood the female capacity to
| avoid a direct answer to any question."
|
| -- Mr. Spock, "This Side of Paradise"
 

Ritz

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Jeff Rife wrote:
> Ryan Lago (ryan.lago@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>
>>>How much are those Sony prosumer 3 chippers? $4000 with XLRs and all that
>>>stuff you really need. Editors are computers nowadays. My buddy can shoot on
>>>those little deals and edit in HD at home.
>>
>>There is no prosumer HD cam that produces editable material.
>
>
> All of them seem to output HDV, and I know of at least two fairly
> inexpensive programs that can handle that format (Adobe Premiere Pro and
> Pinnacle Studio Plus 10). You can get Pinnacle for less than $100.
>


And, of course, Final Cut Pro can handle it. If anyone is doing
anything remotely professional for TV broadcast, I imagine they'd use
this plus a Mac(s) to get the job done.

Cheers,
 
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On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 12:02:49 -0400, Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:

>Ryan Lago (ryan.lago@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>> >How much are those Sony prosumer 3 chippers? $4000 with XLRs and all that
>> >stuff you really need. Editors are computers nowadays. My buddy can shoot on
>> >those little deals and edit in HD at home.
>>
>> There is no prosumer HD cam that produces editable material.
>
>All of them seem to output HDV, and I know of at least two fairly
>inexpensive programs that can handle that format (Adobe Premiere Pro and
>Pinnacle Studio Plus 10). You can get Pinnacle for less than $100.

Regarding HDV: Have fun trying to cut accurately!
 
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Ryan Lago (ryan.lago@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> >All of them seem to output HDV, and I know of at least two fairly
> >inexpensive programs that can handle that format (Adobe Premiere Pro and
> >Pinnacle Studio Plus 10). You can get Pinnacle for less than $100.
>
> Regarding HDV: Have fun trying to cut accurately!

How is it different from DV or HD MPEG-2?

--
Jeff Rife | Sam: Hey, how's life treating you there, Norm?
|
| Norm: Beats me...then it kicks me and leaves me
| for dead.
 

Ritz

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Jeff Rife wrote:
> Ryan Lago (ryan.lago@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>
>>>All of them seem to output HDV, and I know of at least two fairly
>>>inexpensive programs that can handle that format (Adobe Premiere Pro and
>>>Pinnacle Studio Plus 10). You can get Pinnacle for less than $100.
>>
>>Regarding HDV: Have fun trying to cut accurately!
>
>
> How is it different from DV or HD MPEG-2?

It isn't.
 
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On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:21:56 -0400, Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:

>Ryan Lago (ryan.lago@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>> >All of them seem to output HDV, and I know of at least two fairly
>> >inexpensive programs that can handle that format (Adobe Premiere Pro and
>> >Pinnacle Studio Plus 10). You can get Pinnacle for less than $100.
>>
>> Regarding HDV: Have fun trying to cut accurately!
>
>How is it different from DV or HD MPEG-2?

DV and MPEG-2 is different.
DV is MJPEG. Full frame.
MPEG-2 is MPEG-2.
 

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Ryan Lago wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:21:56 -0400, Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Ryan Lago (ryan.lago@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>>
>>>>All of them seem to output HDV, and I know of at least two fairly
>>>>inexpensive programs that can handle that format (Adobe Premiere Pro and
>>>>Pinnacle Studio Plus 10). You can get Pinnacle for less than $100.
>>>
>>>Regarding HDV: Have fun trying to cut accurately!
>>
>>How is it different from DV or HD MPEG-2?
>
>
> DV and MPEG-2 is different.
> DV is MJPEG. Full frame.

What? DV is NOT mjpeg and DV and HDV are easily edited. HDV requires a
bit more horsepower on the editing system since you're pushing a bit
more data, but this isn't rocket science.

> MPEG-2 is MPEG-2.

mpeg-4 is mpeg-4 too. Thanks for the insight.

Cheers,
 
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Ritz (ritz@mordor.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> Ryan Lago wrote:
> > DV and MPEG-2 is different.
> > DV is MJPEG. Full frame.
>
> What? DV is NOT mjpeg

This I knew, so I now suspect that HDV isn't much different from DV...just
more bits.

> and DV and HDV are easily edited. HDV requires a
> bit more horsepower on the editing system since you're pushing a bit
> more data, but this isn't rocket science.

That's what I thought, but it could have been some weird format where
I-frames (or the equivalent) were few and far between, which makes "cheap"
editors harder to build.

With a top-level consumer DV camcorder running close to $1500, the extra
$500-1000 to get HDV (even at 1440x1080) seems well worth it now that
editors are cheap.

--
Jeff Rife | "These are not scraps. These are historic
| remains of a once-great society of hair."
|
| -- George Costanza
 
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On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 17:29:08 -0400, Ritz <ritz@mordor.net> wrote:

>Ryan Lago wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:21:56 -0400, Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Ryan Lago (ryan.lago@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>>>
>>>>>All of them seem to output HDV, and I know of at least two fairly
>>>>>inexpensive programs that can handle that format (Adobe Premiere Pro and
>>>>>Pinnacle Studio Plus 10). You can get Pinnacle for less than $100.
>>>>
>>>>Regarding HDV: Have fun trying to cut accurately!
>>>
>>>How is it different from DV or HD MPEG-2?
>>
>>
>> DV and MPEG-2 is different.
>> DV is MJPEG. Full frame.
>
>What? DV is NOT mjpeg and DV and HDV are easily edited. HDV requires a
>bit more horsepower on the editing system since you're pushing a bit
>more data, but this isn't rocket science.
DV and MJPEG are recording every frame as a full frame.
Dont you get it?

HDV does not. HDV is a MPEG2 (lossy) method!
 

Ritz

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Ryan Lago wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 17:29:08 -0400, Ritz <ritz@mordor.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Ryan Lago wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:21:56 -0400, Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ryan Lago (ryan.lago@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>All of them seem to output HDV, and I know of at least two fairly
>>>>>>inexpensive programs that can handle that format (Adobe Premiere Pro and
>>>>>>Pinnacle Studio Plus 10). You can get Pinnacle for less than $100.
>>>>>
>>>>>Regarding HDV: Have fun trying to cut accurately!
>>>>
>>>>How is it different from DV or HD MPEG-2?
>>>
>>>
>>>DV and MPEG-2 is different.
>>>DV is MJPEG. Full frame.
>>
>>What? DV is NOT mjpeg and DV and HDV are easily edited. HDV requires a
>>bit more horsepower on the editing system since you're pushing a bit
>>more data, but this isn't rocket science.
>
> DV and MJPEG are recording every frame as a full frame.
> Dont you get it?
>
> HDV does not. HDV is a MPEG2 (lossy) method!
>
>

What exactly are you complaining about? Yup, DV video is
compressed...so is HDV.

That doesn't seem to stop a lot of news teams from using cams like the
JVC DV-GY500.

*shrug*
 
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On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 18:39:13 -0400, Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:

>Ritz (ritz@mordor.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>> Ryan Lago wrote:
>> > DV and MPEG-2 is different.
>> > DV is MJPEG. Full frame.
>>
>> What? DV is NOT mjpeg
>
>This I knew, so I now suspect that HDV isn't much different from DV...just
>more bits.

HDV is NOT more bits.
HDV is HDTV information on a DV cassette - means the information has
to be compressed with a lossy method called MPEG2.

MPEG2 means you CANNOT edit the footage frame by frame.
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 01:08:00 +0200 Ryan Lago <ryan.lago@hotmail.com> wrote:
| On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 18:39:13 -0400, Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:
|
|>Ritz (ritz@mordor.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
|>> Ryan Lago wrote:
|>> > DV and MPEG-2 is different.
|>> > DV is MJPEG. Full frame.
|>>
|>> What? DV is NOT mjpeg
|>
|>This I knew, so I now suspect that HDV isn't much different from DV...just
|>more bits.
|
| HDV is NOT more bits.
| HDV is HDTV information on a DV cassette - means the information has
| to be compressed with a lossy method called MPEG2.
|
| MPEG2 means you CANNOT edit the footage frame by frame.

Sure you can. Just because the number of stored bits per frame varies
does not prevent frame-accurate editing. It just requires more work on
the part of the software. One possible approach is to pre-index the
HDV file to find where all the frame positions actually are, and store
that information as an index file.

If your editor program cannot do it, don't assume that all others cannot.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
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Ryan Lago (ryan.lago@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> HDV is NOT more bits.
> HDV is HDTV information on a DV cassette - means the information has
> to be compressed with a lossy method called MPEG2.

Uh, DV is also lossy. For more details on DV, see:
http://www.dvcollections.com/support_dvcompress.html

Technically, HDV is *not* MPEG-2, but rather "Long-GOP MPEG-2".

> MPEG2 means you CANNOT edit the footage frame by frame.

Gee, then why do I do just that every day? Check out any number of
programs, but I use VideoReDo (http://www.videoredo.com/). After searching
their support forum, I see that at least one guy is using VideoReDo to
edit HDV from a Sony HDR-HC1.

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| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Zits/Merging.jpg
 
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On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 16:16:47 -0700, "Richard C."
<post-age@spamcop.net> wrote:

>X-No-archive: yes
>
>"Ryan Lago" <ryan.lago@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:l3hmi1h4au3j7tarmb6rpucj0gf6cl94c6@4ax.com...
>> On 16 Sep 2005 05:50:36 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>First ep of Survivor was on last night, AGAIN not recorded in HD. It's
>>>a PERFECT venue for HD, out in the jungle/ocean and a couple of hot
>>>babes.
>>
>> A HD cam is worth about $ 100.000.
>===============================
>Not true at all.
>There are models as low as $ 2,000.00 now.

Had a big laugh. Thanx.
We're talking about pro equipment my friend.
 

Ritz

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Ryan Lago wrote:
>> Had a big laugh. Thanx.
> We're talking about pro equipment my friend.
>


That's OK. I had a big laugh when I considered the subject material.....
 
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(phil-news-nospam@ipal.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> | MPEG2 means you CANNOT edit the footage frame by frame.
>
> Sure you can.

Although you are correct here, it's merely the "blind squirrel" syndrome.

> Just because the number of stored bits per frame varies
> does not prevent frame-accurate editing. It just requires more work on
> the part of the software. One possible approach is to pre-index the
> HDV file to find where all the frame positions actually are, and store
> that information as an index file.

Finding the frame isn't the issue. As I keep saying:

phil@ipal.net will post on any subject, even if he has no clue about it.
Please don't use anything he wrote to help you decide anything, as he is
most likely wrong. He has been corrected numerous times by a wide
variety of posters, yet continues to post nonsense.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Peanuts/TenPin.gif
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 02:15:07 -0400 Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:
| (phil-news-nospam@ipal.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
|> | MPEG2 means you CANNOT edit the footage frame by frame.
|>
|> Sure you can.
|
| Although you are correct here, it's merely the "blind squirrel" syndrome.

I see you can't miss any opportunity to make a personal attack, even
when YOU know I am right.


|> Just because the number of stored bits per frame varies
|> does not prevent frame-accurate editing. It just requires more work on
|> the part of the software. One possible approach is to pre-index the
|> HDV file to find where all the frame positions actually are, and store
|> that information as an index file.
|
| Finding the frame isn't the issue. As I keep saying:

Actually, there aren't any real issues at all. But software
originally designed for DV could readily assume each frame begins
120000 or 144000 bytes beyond the previous frame, and to get to any
frame number, multiply 120000 or 144000 by the frame number and do a
file position seek to that byte number. Such software would have to
abandon that assumption for HDV (or MPEG).

If you think there are other issues, and you decide to start discussing
things based on the facts, merit, logic, and/or analysis, and end the
personal attacks to cover up your inability or preference to not
discuss things properly, then you should feel free to state what you
think these other issues are.


| phil@ipal.net will post on any subject, even if he has no clue about it.
| Please don't use anything he wrote to help you decide anything, as he is
| most likely wrong. He has been corrected numerous times by a wide
| variety of posters, yet continues to post nonsense.

No corrections were ever posted. Only personal attacks were made.

Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> will find any and all excuses to avoid a
technical discussion based on the facts, merit, logic, and/or analysis
of the topic at hand, preferring instead to twist or selectively
interpret what people say in order to find a means to make personal
attacks, or incite flame wars. If you catch him doing this, you can
help others by posting a followup that points out the errors in his
postings. There might be hope in salvaging what could otherwise be
a smart person.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

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