Doonesbury

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"Trevor de Clercq" <declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote in message
news:1109355256.7b4ddb60f579bb554367d58cc4d74907@teranews...

> I guess I feel musicians should make their money from teaching,
> performing, working as technicians/engineers, or just working regular
> jobs. So the "music industry" dying doesn't seem a big deal to me. I
> think CDs should cost money to pay for the packaging and distribution
> costs, but the royalties are a weird thing.
>
[snip]
>
> Maybe I'm too much of a socialist or something. I don't know. I'm
> obviously opening myself up to criticism and haven't really 100% thought
> through these ideas. Maybe I play too much classical music and
> bluegrass to care about copyrights....

Aw, c'mon. What do you do about someone like Irving Berlin -- a man who was
a thoroughly mediocre performer, probably would've been a terrible teacher,
engineer, whatever. In fact, he seems to have been a man with very few
talents, but the one that he had -- writing pop songs for other people to
sing -- he had in spades.

So how should he make his living, without royalties? Do ten hours a day
pushing racks of pants in the garment district? Instead, he wrote songs for
eight-ten hours a day, and the world's richer for it, asnd he got paid for
his hard work. "Too much of a socialist", you say? Try this on for size:
"Never get between a worker and his bread." - U. Utah Phillips

Peace,
Paul

 

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It seems like the days of Tin Pan Alley and people employed as staff
songwriters are behind us. Again, I'm not sure if copyrights should
totally be abolished, but I think the current system is a bit restrictive.

I think it's hard to guess whether Berlin would have been a good teacher
or not. If he had a skill, it's unfortunate that others could not learn
that skill directly from him.

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

Paul Stamler wrote:
> "Trevor de Clercq" <declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote in message
> news:1109355256.7b4ddb60f579bb554367d58cc4d74907@teranews...
>
>
>>I guess I feel musicians should make their money from teaching,
>>performing, working as technicians/engineers, or just working regular
>>jobs. So the "music industry" dying doesn't seem a big deal to me. I
>>think CDs should cost money to pay for the packaging and distribution
>>costs, but the royalties are a weird thing.
>>
>
> [snip]
>
>>Maybe I'm too much of a socialist or something. I don't know. I'm
>>obviously opening myself up to criticism and haven't really 100% thought
>>through these ideas. Maybe I play too much classical music and
>>bluegrass to care about copyrights....
>
>
> Aw, c'mon. What do you do about someone like Irving Berlin -- a man who was
> a thoroughly mediocre performer, probably would've been a terrible teacher,
> engineer, whatever. In fact, he seems to have been a man with very few
> talents, but the one that he had -- writing pop songs for other people to
> sing -- he had in spades.
>
> So how should he make his living, without royalties? Do ten hours a day
> pushing racks of pants in the garment district? Instead, he wrote songs for
> eight-ten hours a day, and the world's richer for it, asnd he got paid for
> his hard work. "Too much of a socialist", you say? Try this on for size:
> "Never get between a worker and his bread." - U. Utah Phillips
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
>

 

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On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:49:23 -0500, Trevor de Clercq
<declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote:

>It seems like the days of Tin Pan Alley and people employed as staff
>songwriters are behind us. Again, I'm not sure if copyrights should
>totally be abolished, but I think the current system is a bit restrictive.
>
>I think it's hard to guess whether Berlin would have been a good teacher
>or not. If he had a skill, it's unfortunate that others could not learn
>that skill directly from him.

There is a difference between skill and talent. And having a skill in
music is different from having the skill to teach.

Al

>Cheers,
>Trevor de Clercq
>
>Paul Stamler wrote:
>> "Trevor de Clercq" <declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote in message
>> news:1109355256.7b4ddb60f579bb554367d58cc4d74907@teranews...
>>
>>
>>>I guess I feel musicians should make their money from teaching,
>>>performing, working as technicians/engineers, or just working regular
>>>jobs. So the "music industry" dying doesn't seem a big deal to me. I
>>>think CDs should cost money to pay for the packaging and distribution
>>>costs, but the royalties are a weird thing.
>>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>Maybe I'm too much of a socialist or something. I don't know. I'm
>>>obviously opening myself up to criticism and haven't really 100% thought
>>>through these ideas. Maybe I play too much classical music and
>>>bluegrass to care about copyrights....
>>
>>
>> Aw, c'mon. What do you do about someone like Irving Berlin -- a man who was
>> a thoroughly mediocre performer, probably would've been a terrible teacher,
>> engineer, whatever. In fact, he seems to have been a man with very few
>> talents, but the one that he had -- writing pop songs for other people to
>> sing -- he had in spades.
>>
>> So how should he make his living, without royalties? Do ten hours a day
>> pushing racks of pants in the garment district? Instead, he wrote songs for
>> eight-ten hours a day, and the world's richer for it, asnd he got paid for
>> his hard work. "Too much of a socialist", you say? Try this on for size:
>> "Never get between a worker and his bread." - U. Utah Phillips
>>
>> Peace,
>> Paul
>>
>>

 

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Once again, I think almost any behavior can be learned. The ability to
teach, in fact, can be taught. Skills are acquired, talent is not. And
I'm not sure I even believe in the latter.

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

play_on wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:49:23 -0500, Trevor de Clercq
> <declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>It seems like the days of Tin Pan Alley and people employed as staff
>>songwriters are behind us. Again, I'm not sure if copyrights should
>>totally be abolished, but I think the current system is a bit restrictive.
>>
>>I think it's hard to guess whether Berlin would have been a good teacher
>>or not. If he had a skill, it's unfortunate that others could not learn
>>that skill directly from him.
>
>
> There is a difference between skill and talent. And having a skill in
> music is different from having the skill to teach.
>
> Al
>
>
>>Cheers,
>>Trevor de Clercq
>>
>>Paul Stamler wrote:
>>
>>>"Trevor de Clercq" <declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote in message
>>>news:1109355256.7b4ddb60f579bb554367d58cc4d74907@teranews...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I guess I feel musicians should make their money from teaching,
>>>>performing, working as technicians/engineers, or just working regular
>>>>jobs. So the "music industry" dying doesn't seem a big deal to me. I
>>>>think CDs should cost money to pay for the packaging and distribution
>>>>costs, but the royalties are a weird thing.
>>>>
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>
>>>>Maybe I'm too much of a socialist or something. I don't know. I'm
>>>>obviously opening myself up to criticism and haven't really 100% thought
>>>>through these ideas. Maybe I play too much classical music and
>>>>bluegrass to care about copyrights....
>>>
>>>
>>>Aw, c'mon. What do you do about someone like Irving Berlin -- a man who was
>>>a thoroughly mediocre performer, probably would've been a terrible teacher,
>>>engineer, whatever. In fact, he seems to have been a man with very few
>>>talents, but the one that he had -- writing pop songs for other people to
>>>sing -- he had in spades.
>>>
>>>So how should he make his living, without royalties? Do ten hours a day
>>>pushing racks of pants in the garment district? Instead, he wrote songs for
>>>eight-ten hours a day, and the world's richer for it, asnd he got paid for
>>>his hard work. "Too much of a socialist", you say? Try this on for size:
>>>"Never get between a worker and his bread." - U. Utah Phillips
>>>
>>>Peace,
>>>Paul
>>>
>>>
>
>

 

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On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:10:23 -0500, Trevor de Clercq
<declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote:

>Once again, I think almost any behavior can be learned.

Talent, or innate ability, is not the same as "behavior".

The ability to
>teach, in fact, can be taught. Skills are acquired, talent is not. And
>I'm not sure I even believe in the latter.

Every man a potential Einstein or Mozart? I think not.

Al


>Cheers,
>Trevor de Clercq
>
>play_on wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:49:23 -0500, Trevor de Clercq
>> <declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It seems like the days of Tin Pan Alley and people employed as staff
>>>songwriters are behind us. Again, I'm not sure if copyrights should
>>>totally be abolished, but I think the current system is a bit restrictive.
>>>
>>>I think it's hard to guess whether Berlin would have been a good teacher
>>>or not. If he had a skill, it's unfortunate that others could not learn
>>>that skill directly from him.
>>
>>
>> There is a difference between skill and talent. And having a skill in
>> music is different from having the skill to teach.
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>Trevor de Clercq
>>>
>>>Paul Stamler wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Trevor de Clercq" <declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote in message
>>>>news:1109355256.7b4ddb60f579bb554367d58cc4d74907@teranews...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I guess I feel musicians should make their money from teaching,
>>>>>performing, working as technicians/engineers, or just working regular
>>>>>jobs. So the "music industry" dying doesn't seem a big deal to me. I
>>>>>think CDs should cost money to pay for the packaging and distribution
>>>>>costs, but the royalties are a weird thing.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Maybe I'm too much of a socialist or something. I don't know. I'm
>>>>>obviously opening myself up to criticism and haven't really 100% thought
>>>>>through these ideas. Maybe I play too much classical music and
>>>>>bluegrass to care about copyrights....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Aw, c'mon. What do you do about someone like Irving Berlin -- a man who was
>>>>a thoroughly mediocre performer, probably would've been a terrible teacher,
>>>>engineer, whatever. In fact, he seems to have been a man with very few
>>>>talents, but the one that he had -- writing pop songs for other people to
>>>>sing -- he had in spades.
>>>>
>>>>So how should he make his living, without royalties? Do ten hours a day
>>>>pushing racks of pants in the garment district? Instead, he wrote songs for
>>>>eight-ten hours a day, and the world's richer for it, asnd he got paid for
>>>>his hard work. "Too much of a socialist", you say? Try this on for size:
>>>>"Never get between a worker and his bread." - U. Utah Phillips
>>>>
>>>>Peace,
>>>>Paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>

 

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Mike Rivers wrote:

> I'm just trying to figure out how you make CDs for sixty cents.
> Obviously what goes on to them costs you nothing to make. How can you
> do that without either free equipment or free studio time?

And free electricity and free food and free flatpicks. And Fritos.

--
ha

 

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Mike Rivers wrote:

> Maybe what we need is for the government to support the music industry.
> How'd you like that?

I'd rather just keep getting paid and laid.

--
ha

 

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David Morgan wrote:

> > Hev wrote:

> > They are using the tools of their generation just as
> > all generations past.

> Bullshit... they're abusing the tools... there's a big difference.

Hey, modern handguns are new tools, too, and those nice guys loaded on
crack who stick up folks on the sidewalk are merely using the tools of
their generation just as all generations past. What's the biggie? I'm
sure Hev's down with that.

--
ha

 

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Free-toes! Nice one, Hank!

hank alrich wrote:
> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>
>>I'm just trying to figure out how you make CDs for sixty cents.
>>Obviously what goes on to them costs you nothing to make. How can you
>>do that without either free equipment or free studio time?
>
>
> And free electricity and free food and free flatpicks. And Fritos.
>
> --
> ha

 

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"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1gsl32a.312hva1crai5yN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> David Morgan wrote:
>
>> > Hev wrote:
>
>> > They are using the tools of their generation just as
>> > all generations past.
>
>> Bullshit... they're abusing the tools... there's a big difference.
>
> Hey, modern handguns are new tools, too, and those nice guys loaded on
> crack who stick up folks on the sidewalk are merely using the tools of
> their generation just as all generations past. What's the biggie? I'm
> sure Hev's down with that.


I guess I can proclaim I have prospered at this discussion when you are
reduced to comparing file sharing online with armed robbery.

--

-Hev
remove your opinion to find me here:
www.michaelYOURspringerOPINION.com
http/www.freeiPods.com/?r=14089013

 

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Trevor de Clercq wrote:

> For some reason, I'm reminded of the Willie Dixon - Led Zeppelin issue.
> To me, the songs Zep created were so far removed from the Willie Dixon
> material, Zep had made them their own.

But one who knew from whence cometh the originals upon which Zep's
intreptations were built could tell you what song was being interpreted.
Hence, they're profiting form Willie's work and why shouldn't he get
some of the jelly, too?

> And so much of what Zep did was
> derivative (yet totally new) anyway, you really can't say that it was
> from just one source or another. Would the songs be any less powerful
> with different lyrics? Probably not. But that's like all music. More
> to the point, the fact that some of those songs were Willie Dixon
> "covers" (to me) only served as advertising for Willie Dixon. I went
> out and bought the Chess boxed set long ago and love it!

But do you really think the majority of LZ fans did that? I imagine the
majority of such folks still have no clue who was Willie Dixon, and the
man was a monster in music.

--
ha

 

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Trevor de Clercq wrote:

> What happened? Did the record labels get involved?

No, the Senator from Disney had a few extensions passed. That's after
having captured Mickey Mouse from the public domain or his initial
creator or something unreasonably comical.

> Kurt Albershardt wrote:
> > Trevor de Clercq wrote:

> >> Perhaps copyrights should be more like patents.

> > They used to be.

--
ha

 

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Ahh, the 51st state of Disney! Makes sense....I seem to remember this
story now that I think about it....

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

hank alrich wrote:
> Trevor de Clercq wrote:
>
>
>>What happened? Did the record labels get involved?
>
>
> No, the Senator from Disney had a few extensions passed. That's after
> having captured Mickey Mouse from the public domain or his initial
> creator or something unreasonably comical.
>
>
>>Kurt Albershardt wrote:
>>
>>>Trevor de Clercq wrote:
>
>
>>>>Perhaps copyrights should be more like patents.
>
>
>>>They used to be.
>
>
> --
> ha

 

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Ideas are something else than the actual creative process of making a piece
of music. Ideas are like "Hey, what about having a salad bar" as opposed
to the person who has to figure out what the salad bar is going to cost,
project how many people it would bring in, factor in the space it takes to
have a salad bar vs the dollars that space could bring in if it were filled
with people eating other food, etc.

Besides, if my musical idea is E-A-B-E, then hey, you can have it. But if
my musical idea is talking about how much I wanted that doggie in the window
and I'm laying out my innermost feelings about this one particular moment in
my life in E-A-B-E, then no, you can't have it. Largely music ideas are
someone's slice of life or imagination or contemplation. That means it
can't possibly be YOUR idea.

However, I have had this idea for about 15 years now about a protocol and
it's main characteristic is that it can figure out how to talk to any other
protocol. In other words, an intelligent protocol. Now that's an idea you
can have.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http/blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Trevor de Clercq" <declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote in message
news:1109434228.2d6e14498a5461854a286d47c8ed89bb@teranews...
> > Oh, and I suppose you also object to buying a book by Ernest Hemingway
> > and having to pay the bookseller full price for that? Since when did
> > anybody offer discounts because the writers or artist was dead? Or do
> > you think you're going to get an Andy Warhol work for less money
> > because he's dead? Grow up.
>
> Yes, totally. That's what I like about the Dover publishing company.
> They reissue books in the public domain and charge very little for the
> prints (which they probably have to do in pretty small runs anyway
> considering the relative obscure nature of their titles). I'm happy to
> pay for a good or service, the good in this case being a physical object
> like a book (or CD), but I have a problem paying for a "right" (or other
> intangible). It's strange that "rights" can be bought and sold, even on
> merely a grammatical level. I believe in ownership of property, but
> ideas....hmmmm....not sure. To me, a musical composition falls into the
> idea category.
>
> And I think not being selfish with ideas is a big part of being humble,
> mature, and "grown up".
>
> Cheers,
> Trevor de Clercq
>

 

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Well, Johnny-boy, it means going back to patrons, which means we'll be
writing music to the ideas our patrons want us to write, showing nothing of
our souls, but their ideas. Hmmm, smells like a burning bush to me.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http/blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"John" <ssconmag1@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:BE460D5C.1829%ssconmag1@verizon.net...
> On 2/26/05 11:10 AM, in article
> 1109434228.2d6e14498a5461854a286d47c8ed89bb@teranews, "Trevor de Clercq"
> <declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote:
> > It's strange that "rights" can be bought and sold, even on
> > merely a grammatical level. I believe in ownership of property, but
> > ideas....hmmmm....not sure. To me, a musical composition falls into the
> > idea category.
>
> Trevor, first know I fiond your posts here rock solid and on target.
> With that in mind, doesn;t what you;re propsing here mean that any
> invention should never allow the inventor to profit? That our Artists and
> Wisemen deserve less from what they do for us than a burger-flipper?
>
>
> >
> > And I think not being selfish with ideas is a big part of being humble,
> > mature, and "grown up".
>
> Indeed. But it should it not be the Ideaist's choice to give freely or
> bargain for something as sustainance?
>

 

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On 2/26/05 12:28 PM, in article Tv2dnVIX_s4gLL3fRVn-sg@omsoft.com, "S
O'Neill" <nopsam@nospam.net> wrote:

> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>> They say "Flashback" but the strips have current dates. But so what?
>> Maybe a few years later more people understand what it's all about.
>
>
> Well, this topic has immediately devolved back into the "stealing"
> bicker-fest,

Ummm... It STARTED there...

 

[john]

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On 2/26/05 2:29 PM, in article o64Ud.13782$QQ3.1953@trnddc02, "David Morgan
(MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote:


>>> (and thus someone's going to be able to tear it assunder and ruin your
>>> overall point effectively but uselessly.. We need to keep winning here!)
>>> since contrceptives ARE a real and solid answer to the Problem of
>>> irresponsible/immature humans making new humans.
>>>
>
>
> OK, OK.... I just hate to see this whole piracy thing surfacing again over a
> darned cartoon re-run. :-( I didn't buy it when it started and I don't
> buy it
> any more today than 4 years ago.
>

Agreed agreed agreed...
But then said cartoon was all ABOUT this issue... I still thought the
clearest was Trudeau's week when his daughter 'gave' him a present of a
stolen burned copy of a Stones album complete with home=printed copy of the
album art as a 'present' and just didn;t get it when he was
less-than-honored.

Why these folks aren;t strolling by the sidewalk-vegetable bins at the
Safeway and filling their bags and walking off sans-pay (I mean hey... The
stuff Grows Right Back, so the farmer's not out anything right?) boggles me.

We've been around this bush so many times it hurts when folks don't take a
look at the real whole picture.

Horses and water troughs...

 

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Trevor de Clercq wrote:

> I think it's hard to guess whether Berlin would have been a good teacher
> or not. If he had a skill, it's unfortunate that others could not learn
> that skill directly from him.

But if what he had was a talent it might not have been teachable. Plenty
of folks take cello lessons. There aren't many Yo Yo Ma's, Pablo
Casal's, etc.

--
ha

 

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See, the problem is I have trouble believing in "talent". I believe in
being well-educated/trained and working hard. Some people are innately
smarter than others, but that just means they learn more quickly.
Others can learn the same things, it just takes more time. Don't they
say it's 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration? Maybe the 1% can't be
taught, but the 99% can.

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

hank alrich wrote:
> Trevor de Clercq wrote:
>
>
>>I think it's hard to guess whether Berlin would have been a good teacher
>>or not. If he had a skill, it's unfortunate that others could not learn
>>that skill directly from him.
>
>
> But if what he had was a talent it might not have been teachable. Plenty
> of folks take cello lessons. There aren't many Yo Yo Ma's, Pablo
> Casal's, etc.
>
> --
> ha

 

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On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:05:23 -0500, Trevor de Clercq
<declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote:

>See, the problem is I have trouble believing in "talent". I believe in
>being well-educated/trained and working hard. Some people are innately
>smarter than others, but that just means they learn more quickly.
>Others can learn the same things, it just takes more time. Don't they
>say it's 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration? Maybe the 1% can't be
>taught, but the 99% can.

OK, can you teach me to be Jimi Hendrix?

Al

>Cheers,
>Trevor de Clercq
>
>hank alrich wrote:
>> Trevor de Clercq wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I think it's hard to guess whether Berlin would have been a good teacher
>>>or not. If he had a skill, it's unfortunate that others could not learn
>>>that skill directly from him.
>>
>>
>> But if what he had was a talent it might not have been teachable. Plenty
>> of folks take cello lessons. There aren't many Yo Yo Ma's, Pablo
>> Casal's, etc.
>>
>> --
>> ha