Help MobilityGuru Redesign Psion's Iconic, Ultrasmall 5mx

[micromike]

Hi, I'm new to this site but as someone who has come through Psion 3, 5 and a couple of 5MX's - still in daily use as prompter for meetings (with a filofax I could tell you how many meetings I had missed !), directory, note taker, French dictionary and drawing on screen to explain things - I'm with you all the way on how much I'm going to miss it when it finally packs up.

I've been looking for a replacement for the past couple of years and haven't found anything suitable but I have just found some information about the SA1F00 from Kohjisha - it's a nat's thingy bigger than A5, an inch thick and has a proper (in Psion talk) keyboard. OK, so it won't fit in my pocket he way the Psion does but if the test reports (when it comes out in December) are as good as the pre-release blurb - I WANT ONE !

 

[mifritscher]

So, do you mean it seriously?
Is there already a plan?

my suggestions:
on the software side
-use linux or a slim down XP/ReactOS(?) (max. 150 MB HDD/Flash, 32 MB ram needed to start without swap)
-fast standby-mode (max. 200-500 ms needed to wake up)
-port the great apps from the psion to X86
-perhaps write an EPOC/symbian emulator

on the hardware side
-Display: ca. 800x480, touch screen. Transreflective as the original, but with better background light. 2 display layers: b/w, which needs much less power, and color
-Keyboard: yust keep it, perhaps left and right from the display a few additional keys
-CPU: 200-500 Mhz, which has a low power mode (ca. 30 Mhz, 50-100 mW)
-RAM: 64-256 MB, which can by disabled dynamicly in e.g. 4 MB steps to save power.
-Flash: 384-1024 MB on board wich keeps the OS, data and the RAM when the battery get empty (buffer bat/condensator needed when e.g. the accu is changed)
-card: 2sd+1CF, for the main space.
-ports: com,2 usb host/guest, speaker, mic, perhaps video-out (all mini format)
-wireless communication: irda,wlan, bluethooth.
-accu: 1 lithium-accu, which can be replaced by 2 mignon cells.
-chassis: the same as the MX
-speaker and mic. perhaps as hearer?
-power consumption: 0.1-3W + wlan/bluetooth/usb power
-costs: 200-300 €

So you can write texts, browse the internet, use it as navi, listening music, use it as voice recorder, display your fotos, playing some simple games, etc pp. For what do you need more power? With a 300 Mhz CPU even DVDs can be played...
Even my notebook has only 600 Mhz & 128 MB RAM, on which Win XP works quite well...
When handy-functionality is needed, it can archived via one sd-card.

I think this is realistic. the main problem is to find the right cpu-chipset. Transmeta? P-III ULV with a centrino-chipset? geode? Who is capable to make a schematic or produce the PCB? Where can we get the display, the chassis and the keyboard? Is there still any patents on it?

If there is interest I could open a wiki where we can plan this little machine further

P.S. I do have a Psion 5 MX, it is a greate machine

 

[focussaint]

I would request that you not loose sight of the PDA's strengths. I purchased a Palm T3 for it's incredible functionality. Although it has every feature a mobile professional needs, its 3" wide screen and goofy wireless keyboard (sold separately) prevents adequate data entry. The Psion is almost as usable as my laptop for data entry. Another Psion strength is the simplicity in the operating system and GUI. This affords good performance without requiring a battery-eating processor. My Palm IIIxe would run forever on a set of batteries. I don't need simulated shiny buttons.

Also, I would request that you not try to make the new Psion do everything. The T3 has good media player characteristics but my MP3 player performs much better. I have a good program for time management but my paper planner works better. I really like my T3 for functions such as address book, password management, mobile data collection, and file transfers but there are too many other good products in the market to have one device do everything. For example, I'm not going to strap my PDA to my arm while I'm biking, nor am I going to use pocket Quicken to manage my finances. While there are useful features within these programs, understanding their limitations will prevent overdevelopment and keep the new Psion focused on a PDA's strengths.

 

[mifritscher]

100% ack.

But most of the possibilities depends of the sw. If we use Linux, everybody can use his most-liked apps.
However, there isn't any appliation like the main apps from EPOC: word, excel, desktop, agenda,web. They are very very efficient.

Linux is working very well even on the psion, the text-mode with bash needs only 2 MB ram, which could be stripped down even further. Graphics is done with a simple frame buffer. So Linux is the ideal core for a lightwight operating system.

But we needn't stuck on a 40 Mhz cpu, I think my hw-list is doable nowadays, isn't it?

But we'll need people who can build prototyps... Unfortunately I haven't much experience on layouting such complex PCBs, my biggest project was a AVR-PCB *g*

And how could we gain money for developing this project? Do you know any sponsors?

 

[toktik]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned as I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but here is an interesting Linux device that seems to fit the general replacment 5mx thread:

http/road-gmbh.de/en/produkte/index_01.html

..and elsewhere someone mentioned the new runoured Nokia E90 which if leaked pics are anything to go by looks very much like a 5mx with bigger colour screen.

 

[mifritscher]

It is much smaller which makes it unusable for everydays tipping...
I type the complete school stuff with the Psion 5mx.
But it is the rough direction, perhaps this company makes a little bigger version called L101 / L101K

Let's hope that these devices get reality...

 

[MajorUhlar]

Lets just simplify this to get the device on the market fast. Put a QUERTY keyboard on my favorite mobile multimedia device of all time... the Sony PSP. The size is perfect, the display is amazing, it runs linux, has graphics and sound, connects via usb, has a card, a umd drive, wireless, IR port. What they packed in there never fails to astound and entertain. I always get envious looks on the airplane!

 

[enewmen]

I don't see the problem.

T0 make a UMPC useful:
a screen 6-8" - (small enough to fit in a pocket, big enough to read a web-page full screen)
1280x800 the future is wide-screen.
All software is good enough.
A pull-out thumb keyboard & mouse "OQO style".
Power like Pentium M+ , why not Core 2 Dual? I can dream.
Graphics like GMA 950+ 128meg descrete.
1+ gig RAM (upgradable).
Every wire and wireless connection option imaginable. - 802.11b, bluetooth, 3 mini USBs, 1394, VGA, TV-out, combo flash reader, 1 PCMCIA. telephone RJ11 /w modem(gulp), 100 mbps LAN, docking station, WiFi MAX, Wireless USB, video in, stereo in/out, touch-screen.
external DL DVD+RW
3G and GPRS.
GPS
1.8" HD
8+ hours of battery life.
Able to run any version of Windows - even server 2007 if necessary (linux and OSX is always nice)
A 4-band phone - one less thing to carry.
Cost ~ $1000
With all this, I can do all my work anytime, anyplace.

Sony is getting close, but where is the system on a chip???

 

[spiralsun1]

This is the greatest idea ever. I would do whatever it takes to buy this computer. It is definitely my dream fo rmany years to have a computer like this.

Needs an AMD processor. I don't buy Israeli / Intel stuff.

 

[punterjoe]

I'm with most of the design points made by others here.
My focus points are: less is more, and expandibility is key.
USB definitely. any 'extra' features could always be dongled.
SD (maybe with flashable firmware to support future SD formats)
Some form of wireless... since UWB & other nascent techs are developing, maybe the exact nature of the wireless should be fixed as late in the development process as practical.
For batteries & displays, mobilephone tech may lead the way. If the unit took a common phone battery it could ease production costs. - and charging via USB (while synching?) would be useful.
Is OLED tech sufficient for the display?
Would mic/headphone jacks be needed or could that be accomodated by the existing USB? Should bluetooth even be considered or is it fundamentally redundant with other features? Extra hardware, licensing & battery drain may outweigh any practical benefits.
1Gb RAM seems like a lot now, but it surely will seem like too little too soon.
(I say RAM, but maybe there are better memory technologies for mobile use, either for power, speed or volatility issues)
That's all I can think of on my fantasy list so far.
I just hope that, should someone actually build it, it doesn't turn out like that car Homer Simpson designed

 

[dskeeles]

By coincidence, I came across this discussion at the same time I found my old 5mx box with all manuals, etc. while clearing my attic. The 5mx itself is long-disused, and awaiting yet another hinge replacement (when I get the chance).

The most important features for me where:
- That EXACT keyboard (I also saw it on the Amstrad @mailer, so I guess the supplier was still active after Psion shut down). Size, key travel & feel, everything was perfect
- Touchscreen essential - faster response time would be faster
- The OS. I know this is impossible, but the 5mx OS was the best PDA OS out there, even now. Hey, it went on to become Symbian. The HTC Universal, Hermes, etc. all tout as potential "laptop replacements" and fail miserably (I should know, I've had them). The 5mx was more of a "I don't have my laptop with me, but I don't care, because I have my 5mx."
- Recessed hardware buttons were also great. Not too big, not too small.
- Fixed-location softkeys for common apps on edge of screen
- Zero lag when switching to any application.
- Zero lag
- Zero lag again. Something that waits for you, not v.v.

I remember the most useful, and striking thing, was the object nesting; something even WM5 can't do now. I used to follow this workflow at a regular meeting:

1. Go into Agenda
2. Go to the meeting appointment, and go to the notes field, where the agenda was kept.
3. Create a new Word document inside the appointment
4. Type up the minutes of the meeting as it unfolds
5. Insert vector-based drawing objects into minutes as required. Draw was a 3rd-party app, but so seamless that you could insert drawing objects, and they would appear in-line. <sigh!>
6. Add Logo bitmaps to the top, and standard header/footer
7. Insert a Sketch object at the bottom, by signing directly onto the screen
8. Print the Word document, including embedded header/footer/logo/signature, directly to the printer
9. Exit out of the Word doc back into the Appointment. Save the appointment changes. And if I ever need to find the minutes, I just look for the day of the meeting, and there they are.

I'm not sure if our customer was more impressed by the speed at which I was typing, or by seeing me wave my PDA at a nearby IR printer and have a hardcopy of the minutes of the meeting in his hand before he even walked out the door. Of course, so many embedded docs could bloat the Agenda file; at one point I think it was almost 800kb. Luckily, they were just files, and so I could have a separate agenda purely for minutes, or a particular customer.

ISTR the embedded documents synced back to Outlook as well, at least to one nesting level

So, for any MS WM5 developers out there, remember the following words:
- Embedded objects
- Nested embedded objects
- Vector-based drawing tool


Ummm... Anyway, evangelising aside, my input to the project would be that the 5mx was perfect, and the only things I missed on it when I finally switched to the P800 were:

- Bluetooth (rather than trying to balance my SH888 on my knee to align the IR ports)
- Colour screen

On top of that, since we're in the 00's, why not add:
- Better speaker and mike for conference calls/video calls
- Integrated 3G HSDPA chip and USIM slot - allowing constant RSS updates, videocalls, etc. etc. For voice calls, forget about sidetalking; it's either speakerphone or bluetooth
- High capacity, cheap flash memory; is this still CF, or something else now?
- Second, configurable status LED (or OLED) on outside case
- Video call camera (low res CMOS, front-facing). Don't worry about a high-res front camera, unless it's no problem adding a 3.0MP+ with excellent picture quality (we're talking Nokia rather than HTC).
- USB2.0 to replace serial
- Audio/Video streaming to high quality
- WiFi 802.11b, if you like / (or don't have a flat-rate data tariff)


[d]

 

[mkaibear]

>embedded nested objects

Oh, good grief. That's an *appalling* idea (and, frankly, lazy programming). It means you can only reference the minutes of the meeting by reference to the Agenda item, and it means that you can't search that item easily, you can't reference it somewhere else, you can't look at it without popping into the Agenda.

Much better to have a separate file which is referenced - then the file can be edited separately.

 

[dskeeles]

Oh, good grief. That's an *appalling* idea (and, frankly, lazy programming).

Well, if the programmer needs to flex his mental muscle, he can write a search algorithm that works effectively with this structure instead

I personally find nesting is a must in support of any organised person, whether it be a PDA, Project Plan - anything! I use MLO (My Life Organised) to manage my customer accounts, purely because I can nest tasks within projects within customers within regions within product types. It keeps things tidy, and I can drill down to any item in a logical manner.

If you reference a separate file instead, then you'll most likely organise these by creating your own nesting structure, within the folders/directories that the file resides in. The nesting it still there, but instead of the PIM app managing it for you, it's YOU who are managing it for the PIM app. And surely a PDA is supposed to Assist you, not vice-versa.

IASTR there was a search program that did a pretty good job with the Psion's structure; called Fox..something? I'm not sure if EPOC32 supported links to external files from within the apps itself, but I'm pretty sure there was another, completely seamless, add-on that allowed you to create symbolic links instead of files - just tap the link object, and it would open the file/contact/appointment.

This is why I loved my Psion; it 'thought' the same way I did. I didn't have to map, or reorganise, or adapt to the way it worked - I just poured my thoughts directly into the device, in logical hierarchies, at 60wpm, with illustrations included.

There was a PC emulator somewhere, ISTR... perhaps it's PD by now.


[d]

 

[dskeeles]

There was a PC emulator somewhere, ISTR... perhaps it's PD by now.
[d]

Found it (apologies if this has already been covered in-depth by the EPOC gurus in here). This is how I would typically create some meeting minutes (simplification).






I now recall the one big downer was if you accidentally deleted the object while editing the appointment text; it wasn't undo-able. I vaguely remember a lot of preventative saving.


[d]

 

[mkaibear]

>nesting

I think you misunderstood - I've got nothing against nesting, but it seems to make sense to me to nest *references*, not actual objects. That way you get the best of both worlds - you can look stuff up by date and *bing* everything is there, or you can search "all minutes" for a particular term, and *bing* you know when you discussed it...

The add-on you're talking about seems to do sort of what I would expect it to do - a modernised version of this would seem to be an excellent idea

 

[mkaibear]

>preventative saving

This is another thing which is reduced with the linked references! If you accidentally delete a reference, whoops, you can recreate it... if you delete the document, *ah heck*!

 

[dskeeles]

I think you misunderstood - I've got nothing against nesting, but it seems to make sense to me to nest *references*, not actual objects.

Nope, I did understand My question is where do you store all these referenced documents? Do you simply have a single folder, perhaps "\Embedded Documents", with 100's or 1000's of files in a disorganised mess? Or perhaps you would then organise them - by using a naming convention, or creating folders for different categories... in which case, you're spending your own valuable time manually performing a task which would be better to have the PIM do itself in the first place.... by storing the documents themselves within the Agenda, where your own mental map would logically expect to find them.

Trust me - try out the emulator, and then try creating whatever kind of documents you like within Agenda, without having to conform to the app's limitations - the ones it doesn't have. You'll love it!


[d]

 

[dskeeles]

This is another thing which is reduced with the linked references! If you accidentally delete a reference, whoops, you can recreate it... if you delete the document, *ah heck*!

Yep. Hence the need for a good undo, and also a regular backup

I know Undos are difficult to code, but thinking about it, most current PDA PIMs lend themselves to this already. When deleting an appointment, they just delete the reference for the current display, but leave the actual data in there, for purposes of speed and battery consumption; all old/unlinked data is cleaned out during a periodic maintanence sweep. Hence, any accidentally-deleted data can easily be undone up to the point of the next maintenance sweep.


Hmmm.. Also, actually.... From your statement above, you're implying that deleting the reference would not delete the file. But is this a good thing? It would mean deleting old minutes, appointments, contacts, etc. would not delete the files, but leave them on disc, eating up valuable RAM?


[d]

 

[fluppeteer]

Hi all. Well, it took me a bit longer to get back to this topic than I'd anticipated... glad to see it's still going!

Firstly, I need to eat some humble pie. I had a play with a current Nokia 9000 series over Christmas (I forgot to play with a friend's 5mx again) and the keyboard is horrible. I take back everything I said about it being an option as a 5mx replacement. The JasJar keyboard is much better than I expected, though - years of typing on a Libretto seem to have made me capable of using a small keyboard, so I'm no longer quite such a strong advocate of adding a few mm to the width of the design (although rubbing my fingers together slightly less when typing has to help).

The ROAD looks interesting, even though my experience with a Zaurus means I'm not a fan of Qtopia. Apple's iPhone (although the GUI isn't quite as revolutionary as they seem to be saying, from what I've seen of it so far) is worth a peek, too.

I still think a low-end PC the size of a 5mx, with a usable keyboard, would sell. Costs would have to be low (which rules out large amount of solid state memory), but you don't need much oomph to run XP (or, probably, Vista without Aero Glass) by modern standards, and the convenience of carrying the "real" Office, or a full web browser, or (at the cost of running slowly) some Adobe apps around would be very appealing. I still claim that the 1280x768 (Sharp?) screen that Toshiba used in the Libretto is worth it for compatibility over the Sony 1024x640 version. I begin to wonder whether such a PC would really benefit much from a touch screen, vs, say, a pop-out trackpad (think something the size of a CF card); keeping a stylus steady at >200dpi might be tricky, and the 5mx's screen isn't the ideal touch-screen format - nor can it be made into one without breaking the keyboard hinge design that everyone likes. I still wouldn't integrate a phone into it.

I admit to being a hypocrite, though. For component costs, it would be much cheaper to build an ARM-based system in this form factor, even if it was basically a JasJar with a better keyboard. I'd put Linux on the PC version anyway (although probably dual boot), so running ARM Linux (in spite of some reservations on older systems) isn't such a hardship; give me xemacs and gcc, and preferably X11, and I'm happy. I'm wary of building a linux version from scratch - making it as responsive as a 5mx is tricky, even with a 10x CPU speed advantage - but shipping a Win Mobile version and letting the community do the work (by publishing the docs) would make some sales; the lack of documentation seems to be the sticker with the JasJar Linux port. At least Linux-based phones seem to be catching on. I like Linux, but it's not, of itself, a PDA system. It's much easier to keep the battery life that everyone wants in such a device than in a PC, and a cheaper (lower resolution) screen would probably suffice (such as the one in the N770). Less is done for you, though, and it's not quite so standardised as the world of PCs.

The software is important, but I think the discussion of implementations of OLE is a "small matter of programming". This is a solved problem, even if plenty of broken implementations exist. If the platform is standardised, it's easy enough to put together an application, or pluck a suitable suite out of the ether.

Of course, the problem with a relatively proprietary ARM-based approach is that you need to start piling on the features, and therefore cost. IMHO one would really need to integrate a phone (including 3G, whatever Apple thinks), a basic camera, a touch screen, etc. - an x86 version can make do with USB and user upgrades. I'm not sure where the boundary lies.

I do hope this happens, in one form or another, though.

 

[fluppeteer]

At the risk of replying to myself, a couple of things of potential interest to this discussion:

1) I notice there's a new oqo. It still has a tiny screen and not what I'd call a usable keyboard. I still think a PC in 5mx form factor (something like a Libretto only smaller - and that's not a sentence you'll hear often) is a different market. It's an example of the hardware fitting into a suitably small case, though.

2) This might be of interest to the "make it a windows mobile device with a decent keyboard" contingent:
http/www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01/11/seamless_shows_s-xgen/
http/www.slwf.net/main-site/products_S-XGen.html
http/www.phonegg.com/Seamless/S-XGen/Seamless-S-XGen.html

The screen - "470x280", although I suspect 480x272 is more likely - isn't as nice as the JasJar's though. We'll have to find out when it's a real product.

Must draw a doodle of what I have in mind...