Help with speakers and surround sound

[paliovouna]

Hi.
I am new to the whole sound stuff and i need serious help with something.


Ok, so firstly, i have a Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme audio for a sound card. If i buy 5.1 computer speakers, like logitech z506 or z906 or z5500, will i have true 5.1 sound (voices from center speaker, ambient sounds from the rest) ?

For example, i play a BluRay movie that has lossless 5.1 channel DTS-HD Master Audio on my computer. Will my speakers give this 5.1 sound? Do i need a decoder or something? Do i need to buy, like, a 5.1 home theater system (those 500-600€ things) and then throw away the player and keep only the speakers (as i have a bluray drive on my computer)?



In short, if i buy 5.1 computer speakers and play a bluray movie that has some type of lossless dts audio, will i get that true 5.1 from the speakers?

 

[paliovouna]

Thanks for the details.

It looks like i'll most probably need to run the wires both through the wall and on the floor, that wire concealment guide will come in handy. About wall plates, i don't think they play any major role, do they?

Since i'll definitely need to clean up every once in a while, banana plugs seem perfect.

But holy crap, i need to pay 100$ for a bluray playback program? Like hell im doing that.

Do you know any cheaper programs that can play bluray movies, including 3D? If not, i guess i'll go with ArcSoft totalmedia theatre, it's not that cheaper anyway.

 

[ssddx]

to be honest its not very often where i completely remove everything where i need the bananna clip disconnect points. normally about once a year is when i pull everything out including the desk to vac/wetvac, wipe the walls and scrub the molding to get rid of stains and or dust nasties which accumulate and arent removed by normal vacuuming. i normally take this time to redo the under-the-desk wiring job that i have going as well. the bananna clips were a bit expensive if you buy them in store (more reasonable if you get a good deal online) but worthwhile.

if you go through my photos again (link is somewhere up on one of my posts) you will see my wall plates. the way i have things set up for my own system with the wall plates is as follows:
-my two rear speakers are connected directly to spekear wire in their binding posts and the other ends have bananna clips which plug into a 2port wall plate i have behind each speaker.
-my front three speakers are likewise connected directly to the back and on the other end they have bananna clips. i run the wire under my desk and connect direct up to the back of the receiver.
-i have a 4 port wall plate behind the receiver in which i run two cables with bananna clips on both ends from the plate to my receiver. this connects the rear speakers to my receiver.
-my subwoofer cable is routed under my desk and likewise for the hdmi

the wallplates do not play a major role but if you run through the wall (as in putting a hole in your wall) they cover the hole up nicely to keep a presentable room appearance. putting a break in your speaker wire there and using plugs also allows you to have a disconnect point for cleaning purposes. without such a point you would need to worry about unscrewing binding posts if you wanted to remove the speaker for cleaning and also you would need to secure the wire so that it doesnt pull back through the wall. as i said, its not required but it can come in handy. your choice.

--

over here in the states powerdvd14 runs about $80 however i've seen it go on sale through their website for less at times. you could use powerdvd13 which should be a fair bit cheaper and more easy to find on sale. before you go out and buy a program i would suggest installing the free trials they normally have on their website. this way you can see if you actually like the progam before buying!

arcsoft wasnt getting great reviews and appeared to have trouble with activation and updating where it completely stoppped playback. the interface is also said to be very clunky.

again, i would try a free trial of the software.

also.. you might want to look for any software which came with your blueray drive. sometimes they include powerdvd free with drives. it would have been in the same box if it did.

 

[thee_prisoner]

One other good brand that that is easily available in Greece is Harman Kardon. Here is a link for that Greek site with their products.
http://www.skroutz.gr/c/239/enisxytes.html?from=catspan&keyphrase=harman+kardon

be seeing you, the Prisoner...

 

[paliovouna]

@ssdx Alright, i think i'll be fine with the wiring, i hope it's ok to ask any further questions should i meet trouble.
I'll look for PowerDVD 13 then.




@thee_prisoner The cheapest receiver of that brand is priced at 258€, which is no low price. Is there anything else you could tell me about the brand? Does it get good feedback from users? Reviews, ratings?

 

[ssddx]

if you have trouble just post back.

one thing that i havent specified yet is wire gage for you to buy. you need to tell me how long the wire has to be for me to give you this info. or... cross reference it on this chart. sorry, its in ft so you will need to convert. you are looking at the column for 8ohm load. do not exceed the maximum length or you need to step up to the next size wire. remember the distance is the actual length of the wires and not a direct point A to B measurement.

oh and since you likely arent going to be using AWG heres a conversion

sorry i'm used to things done in imperial & awg... you would have to look for a metric speaker wire distance chart. i didnt find one in a few minutes that i looked.

harmon kardon is a decent brand though i have to admit that i havent done a whole lot of research into them. normally i center around pioneer, yamaha, denon and onkyo. that 258eur model also doesnt measure up to the specs those speakers list (100w@8ohm) instead its only capable of 75w@6ohm which would be less than 50w@8ohm if its even capable of it. you would need to spend even more money to get something capable of powering the speakers. i would say HK is a no-go for you due to price.

 

[paliovouna]

Sorry for taking so long to answer, have been busy as hell.

These charts are quite useful. I'm still trying to make an estimation as accurate as possible on how long i need the wires to be. After that i'll take the chart into consideration, but as you said i need to make conversions.

Something else came up, just today actually, regarding DTS sound.

I noticed DTS-HD MA and DTS-HD MA Essential are two different things. Does that mean that if a receiver only supports DTS-HD MA essential won't be able to decode dts-hd master audio lossless sound?

I think i read something, that "essential" does not include NEO 6 and dts es matrix formats or something. Feel free to enlighten me on this matter should you wish to.

 

[thee_prisoner]

NEO 6(similar to dolby pro logic) is a codec that takes a 2.0 source and expands it to 5.1 and above. So no worries there. DTS-HD MA essential only applies to a dvd/bluray player. So a receiver won't have essential because it isn't needed for a receiver or surround pre amp.

Speaker wise I always make this statement. Spend the money on speakers and in this case with a limited budget just get the best 2 front mains you can afford and a good center channel. That way you can build up to something better and still use the left over speakers for something else. You can always add a sub and some really cheap rears later on. Used is your best bet for saving money.

Happy surround, the Prisoner...

 

[paliovouna]

So i guess this dts-hd ma essential only excludes a couple (old) sound formats, right?

I know buying used equipment can save you money, but i want to buy brand new stuff, as im going to be using them for quite some time(or years). In fact, after much thought, i might be going for separate speakers, sub and receiver. Definitely more expensive, but i can always add/upgrade parts later on. So now, im gonna be asking you, which should i buy?

For the front speakers i might as well buy tallboys. Specifically, i took a look at the Yamaha NS-F150BL. Are they any good? They seem pretty powerful to me. Not sure if true, but i've seen people say that tallboy speakers color the sound more than shelf speakers.

As for the subwoofer, in my quick search, the Yamaha YST-RSW300 caught my eye. Active, front firing sub with 270W power. Priced at 290€, i don't think it's bad, is it?

Now i need you to point me to a receiver. What's a good one that can support the above, and more speakers i'll add in the future? What am i looking at?150€?250€?

The above sub and speakers bring me to 435€, at this time, i can only invest more money for a receiver, and not more speakers (gonna have to withdraw from bank account, and i thought i'd keep the money for life in university).

 

[thee_prisoner]

I'm looking at some speakers. I can't really recommend speakers I haven't heard only companies that I respect. In terms of used, i bought some JBL 4311s in 1979 and still using them! haha.

Since you're going to university, what will be your living situation? Do you really want to carry around some big tower speakers? Also, since your focus seems to be movies I would still consider 2 front mains and a center channel. A center channel in my opinion is the most crucial speaker in surround because of the dialogue. And you can always add a sub later.

 

[ssddx]

@palio

while completely true that you can always add pieces later on if you buy piecemeal... you could also get stuck with not being able to find matching speakers later on! since you live in a country where its very hard to get certain things this could definitely be a major issue. your choice.

if you are going to university i wouldnt get floorstanding speakers as you will get noise complaints. keep in mind that certain floorstanding speakers have higher power requirements which may mean spending quite a bit more money for your receiver! again, your choice.

i thought you pretty much decided on a 5.1 set plus a receiver for 550eur? while completely your choice if you wanted to go seperates i think a smaller set is going to be a bit better for university. you will not get noise complaints for one and its not as hard on the budget. you could also enjoy 5.1 now not later. again... completely your choice.

if you did want to buy seperates and changed your mind completely then i'd invest in a decent 3.1 set and a good receiver. if you went with floorstanders in the front and a center you could eliminate the sub and just get a 3.0 set. floorstanders have enough low end bass that you dont need a subwoofer (at least not right now). provided that speakers are available in the future to match up to them you could always expand. however, if they arent available then you will be forced to mismatch or import them at high cost to you.

 

[paliovouna]

@thee It depends on which university im going to, which in order depends on my performance in the final exams next year. If i manage to get in a university in Athens, we already have a house there in which i'll live (detached house, single floor). If i get in a university close to my hometown, i'll stay in my current home.
If i get in a university anywhere else, i'm gonna rent some small flat i guess. That's where noise is gonna be a real problem.

Carrying the tower speakers around isn't that much of an issue, as i'll have to carry them only once to my new house.

I think i can dispense with the subwoofer for the time being then, and get a center channel. Any recommendations?


@ssdx Yes, i still do lean towards the jbl 5.1 and the receiver solution, but as i said, i thought about it and wondered, what would i do if i got more money in the future and wanted to get a more powerful sub, or speakers or something? I have been to a friend's house a couple of times (he lives very far away, total audiophile), and he had some sort of huge black subwoofer. I asked him to turn it on and show me what it can do, can say earthquakes aren't so different from its bass.

Then again, i can't get two front speakers, a center one, a sub and a receiver all together. Since the center channel appears to be important for dialogues and the tallboys provide some bass, i could stay with a 3.0 system and a decent receiver for now.


Now, what is this you said about matching speakers? In a 5.1 system for example, do all the speakers have to be identical models? I think i have seen many people saying it's better to buy high quality front speakers and some not so good ones for rear. Is there a problem if i mix speaker brands and models?

 

[thee_prisoner]

I mix speaker brands and models all the time. For the front mains, rears and side speakers, you can use a mixture but you want for example the front mains be the same brand/model and then rears can be a different brand/model then the fronts. In other words, you should have the pairs of speakers be the same brand/model. I hope that made sense! Since you're starting out in this exciting hobby, you'll probably be mixing different brands for awhile. Rear speakers don't have to be high quality.

Looking through the site link you gave us, you have some good choices and good brands. I'm looking at the Wharfedale brand speakers because they make good inexpensive speakers to very good high end speakers. I haven't heard these exact speakers but I have listen to the Diamond models which is about one or two steps above the Vardus series.

Link for speakers, 2 front mains and center:

http://www.odes.gr/shop/ixeia/ixeia-hi-fi/ixeia-dapedou/wharfedale-vardus-vr-300-black-timi.html front mains.
http://www.audioshow.gr/index.php?o...iew=productdetails&virtuemart_product_id=3948 center channel.

Price for both comes to 252.00 so that leaves you some room for a receiver.

One important thing is you should listen to any speaker before you buy with the amp/pre-amp or receiver you plan on buying. I mean some active listening where you spend some time, at least 30 minutes but a hour would be better. If the sales people are good, they will let you lounge around for a few hours trying different stuff, at least it is my experience with non corporate stereo stores that sell new and used. These guys are pretty passionate about their audio. And i get full trade in value on my used stuff. So if I buy an amp for 300.00 and return it to upgrade I get the 300.00 back.

Another thing is burn a cd with a good lossless format and record some jazz, vocals, rock, classical and other stuff that you're familiar with so you can take the cd into the store and listen.

be seeing you, the Prisoner...

Edit: What will you be using for a monitor/TV?

 

[paliovouna]

If i could listen to the speakers before i buy them, i'd be spending half my days in the stores, but no one here cares to go that far in details, meaning they just buy whatever cheap computer speakers they find. That is why i've been so tiring on here with you guys, asking advice on what to buy as i can't hear all these speakers for myself.

Good thing however, is that many shops allow to buy a product, test it and if not satisfied with it, return to the shop and buy another of equal or higher price (while only paying the difference in money between them of course).

And yes, i understood what you said about speaker pairs. A pair for the front speakers, a pair for the rear, and a pair for any further surround ones.

Are these Wharfedale speakers decent? The prices make put a small smile on my face. I just hope their sound is as good as their price tags!


For the time being at least, i will be using an Asus VG278H monitor. I trust there will be no problem with it?

 

[thee_prisoner]

Wharfedale is a well respected speaker manufacture and these are the low end options which isn't necessarily a bad thing because they have many years of design experience where they can make a an inexpensive speaker sound pretty good.

In terms of listening just pick out two speakers sets. Your ears and brain will be tired if you try listening to too many sets. Having a good return policy is great because what room you use them in can make a big difference. I always test out my speakers/amp/pre amps in the room I will be using them in. Especially since you can only afford an inexpensive receiver which will probably have limited options for room correction.

The monitor is fine, I was just curious if you needed an AVR with a HDMI return channel.

I guess the next step is to find an AVR and start testing out some speakers. It seems like some of the stores I checked out have listening rooms but I don't know store what is available in your area. What city/town(city-state) are you near? I will bring this up again and ask the store about used and trade ins!. haha

 

[ssddx]

by speaker matching i do not mean buying the same speakers. for instance you can use floorstanding fronts combined with bookshelf rears. what i meant by this term is going with speakers from the same company or even from the same product lineup so that all of them sound similar. this is like using some diamond 10.3 towers with diamond 10.1 rears and a 10.cc center instead of getting speakers from different sources or lineups.

if you go with speakers from different brands sometimes they sound different which might throw off how the audio sounds as a whole. for instance if your fronts are boomy while your ears are tinny it might make for pretty poor sound. while its entirely possible to mix and match... i wouldnt suggest it unless you know what you're doing.

wharfdale speakers are excellent. i'm not sure about the speakers he listed but the diamond 9 (old) or 10 (current) series is very well respected and i recommend them to anyone in europe with the budget to afford them. you can consider them equals to at least the klipsch speakers we have in the usa. however, going with diamonds will blow your budget to hell if you wanted a full set.

http/www.skroutz.gr/c/571/mousika-hxeia.html?from=catspan&keyphrase=diamond+10
the low end diamond 10.0 is 139/eur a pair, center is 157eur. building a system out of them would be 435eur + receiver (estimated 190eur at cheapest but could be more depending on what you get). oh and if you wanted a subwoofer thats extra as well.

at around 635eur (with receiver but no sub) a system of diamond 10.0/10.cc is going to be at least one or two steps better than the JBL set you were looking at. it will have low-end but not as much as if you had a subwoofer..

just some ideas.

 

[thee_prisoner]

I haven't heard the Wharfedale Vardus series but like you said the Diamonds are very good for the price. It looks like the Vardus series is discontinued and why they are be selling for cheap. Hard to say if they are still in stock. The Diamond 9.0s are being discontinued also so they might be a good pick up. Palio may have to call around and see what is still in stock.

 

[paliovouna]

I could push it with the two diamonds 10.0 front speakers, the diamond 10.cs for center and a receiver. In the greek site, what receiver would you get? Which one can support these speakers and those that i'll add in the future?

Since the Vardus series and diamond 9.0s are discontinued, then wouldn't it be wise to buy instead those that are still in production, so i can find speakers of the same lineup later on?

 

[thee_prisoner]

If you can still find the Vardus or the 9.0 Diamonds. I really don't think it's a big problem. Then again my equipment to pretty much mid end to somewhat higher end so mixing hasn't been a problem for me. All of my speakers are discontinued and most for 20-40 years!

Ssddx suggested for the Pioneer VSX 323. I looked at the reviews, it looks ok. Buy and take the stuff home and listen for a few days. Now in terms of a receiver, adding like a sub, just get a sub in the future with a built in amp. The amps in most receivers aren't very good but work ok but a sub needs lots of power.

 

[paliovouna]

Will do that asap, gonna have to call the shops tomorrow to ask which provide a return policy. I think i'll go with Diamonds 10.0.

And of course next on the list is an active subwoofer. Time has come for pockets to be burnt

 

[ssddx]

i would not go with diamond 9 or vardus since they are discontinued. they will be too hard to match in the future. the diamond 10 should be around for at least a few years so you can buy a set of rears when you have funds (but dont wait too long!)

diamond 10 specs (click below)

Spoiler

Specification
Format Standmount
Bass Driver -
Bass/Mid Driver 100mm
Midrange Driver -
Tweeter 25mm
Suitable Amplifier Power 15-75 Watts
Impedance (Nominal) 6Ω
A/V Shield Yes
Sensitivity 86dB
Nominal Frequency Range 55Hz - 24kHz
HF Limit (-10dB) 44kHz
Crossover Frequency 2.5kHz
Dimensions (H*W*D) 236*145*165 (mm)
Height on feet/spikes (mm)

diamond 10 cs specs (click below)

Spoiler

Format Centre
Bass Driver -
Bass/Mid Driver 2x120mm
Midrange Driver -
Tweeter 25mm
Suitable Amplifier Power 20-150 Watts
Impedance (Nominal) 6Ω
A/V Shield Yes
Sensitivity 89dB
Nominal Frequency Range 70Hz - 24kHz
HF Limit (-10dB) 44kHz
Crossover Frequency 2.8kHz
Dimensions (H*W*D) 189*400*233 (mm)
Height on feet/spikes (mm) 197mm

vsx423 (not 323!) specs (click below)

Spoiler

Power output per channel130W
Condition1kHz, 1% THD, 6Ω
Rated Power Output130W per channel
Power RequirementsAC 220 - 230 V / 50/60 Hz
Power Consumption (in use / standby)415 W / 0.1 W

the receiver should be able to power those speakers fine.

as for a subwoofer... you will be buying one with a power plug with its own amplifier. all you will need is a subwoofer cable then to carry a signal over. if you want everything to match then the 10 series has a matching subwoofer. if you dont care then you can go with anything of the correct output levels.

do not forget: you will need to buy speaker wire and perhaps a few other little things. remember to keep this tabulated in the price.

edit:
another option you have is if you have more money in the future... you could always get a set of diamond 10.3 (or higher) speakers for the fronts so you have floorstanders in front and bookshelves behind. or you can go with all bookshelves. your choice of course. just threw it in there as an option for the future when you go to pick out your remaining speakers