Microsoft Fires Back at Xbox Live Lawsuit

[kartu]

Wait, "denial of Live service" is clear, but what about crippling Xbox-es?

 

[henrystrawn]

I will probally get slammed for this, but something that has not been stated about "crippling" is the obvious business model. Their hardware is subsidized. To sell a console for the price they do, they must recoup revenue from "overpriced" hard drives. That is a concession you make when you buy a console. If anyone has a legitimate gripe it is PC gamers now paying the same price for games as console gamers after investing much more in hardware for the enhanced experience. Now PC gamers are being treated like red-headed step children. I bought a 360 once....I gave it away.

 

[Regulas]

I hope every last one of these gamers flips off MS and buys a PS3. But I bet there will be still allot of them who will give MS more cash.

 

[Regulas]

[citation][nom]henrystrawn[/nom]I will probally get slammed for this, but something that has not been stated about "crippling" is the obvious business model. Their hardware is subsidized. To sell a console for the price they do, they must recoup revenue from "overpriced" hard drives. That is a concession you make when you buy a console. If anyone has a legitimate gripe it is PC gamers now paying the same price for games as console gamers after investing much more in hardware for the enhanced experience. Now PC gamers are being treated like red-headed step children. I bought a 360 once....I gave it away.[/citation]
Just one lame ass game (modern warfare) I know of thought they could raise the price to $59, usually PC games start out at $49, I just picked up Dragon Age for my gaming rig for $39 at Amazon with free shippng too.

 

[shqtth]

Doesnt Microsoft offer a dvd replacement service for the xbox360? So, making copies is not needed.

 

[millerm84]

Under current copy right laws consumers have the right to create backups of any software they purchase. By not creating an avenue for consumers to legally backup their software purchases Microsoft opened the door for outside/private developers to do so. All a lawyer has to do is show enough people who modded for backup creation (having proof of purchase and the disks) and a judge may very well say that Xbox Live's terms of service violates fair use clauses in current copy right law.

Out of the 600,000 to 1 million people banned they will find enough people who were modding for backup to justify the suit and maybe win. MS needs to pull it's head out of it's ass and move to a system like Steam and Blizzard where games are registered to user accounts and downloaded/installed to the hard drive. No more need for backups as they're on the MS server. It would save tons of money by not having to come up with ways to beat pirates.

 

[sykozis]

[citation][nom]phantastic[/nom]I am wondering if the burden of proof "innocent until proven guilty" rests on MS shoulders... Should they have to prove one actually pirated a game as opposed to using a copy of a legitimately purchased game? Listen I am not condoning piracy or making excuses. In fact I have one modded and one un-modded for online play. However I do have a messed up copy of GOW 2 that only works on the xbox that I had copied to the hard drive. I would definitely prefer to use backups as the xbox did at one point have an affinity to scratch media due to a poorly manufactured drive.[/citation]

In class action suits, the "burden of proof" goes both ways. The plaintiffs will have to prove wrong-doing on Microsoft's behalf and Microsoft will have to prove that they were well within their rights under the terms of use agreement. If there are any grey areas in the terms of use, which is nearly unavoidable, MS will probably lose. Now, IF the terms of use states "any modification of any type"...then MS has already won as they've covered ALL possibilities. I haven't personally read the terms of use as I don't own an XBox, but the terms of use falls under contract law in most states, and is legally binding. If the terms of use forbid modification of the system, then MS is legally bound to ban ALL users of modified consoles, which means that the plaintiffs would have to prove that MS intentionally overlooked a significant number of modified Xbox users to prove any case against MS. One thing that most people don't understand, is that no class-action suit actually exists at this point. To gain class-action status, the plaintiff has to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that MS acted unfairly with regard to a significant number of users, then wait for a Judge to award class-action status to the complaint. It's not possible to simply file a class-action lawsuit, as it's not considered a civil action and requires certification from a Judge.

 

[Rahbot]

[citation][nom]timbozero[/nom]Removing XBox Live support for pirated games is fair.Removing XBox Live support for modified consoles is also fair.What is a potential issue is that if a user decides to modify their console (which has been shown to be allowable by law now) and has 1 backup (or pirated game) then they get banned from the entire Live service. Why this could be an issue is that from then on all legitimate, original games will no longer receive updates. As some of these updates are 'bug fixes' which are not available from other sources , Microsoft is removing the 'warranty' and support for those legitimate products by association to the modified console.[/citation]


I upmost disagree with the first 2 sentances and all about modding an xbox to play a copied game while still having the orgianal. I did the same thing for my PS2 I went threw 6 copys of GT3 because my little brother then I found out about modded PS2 so I tried it and then it saved my self and my 40+ plus games from getting destoryed by my younger brother. Not only that but my PS2 from the get go didnt want to play DVD Movies. I talked to Sony and they wanted to charge me like 100$ to fix it, and it was brand new. Still under warrenty. After modding it played DVD movies like it was supposed to.

I wanted to buy an Xbox 360 but found out that you cant upgrade the hard drive so I went out and got the MGS4 PS3 and upgraded the HHD to a 160GB and I love it. So in away some people might have to mod thier gaming system to save from buying a game quite a few times. I do that for PC because I want to play online with all of my computers.

 

[invlem]

"The law firm also alleged that the banning was "strategically placed," thanks to the popularity of Halo 3: ODST, Modern Warfare 2, and the holiday season"

Ummm yes? That would be the best time to ban people, satellite companies have been using this strategy for years to ban pirates, nuking illegitimate cards just before a big event.

Banning people when nothing is going on it isn't going to make as big of a point.

 

[invlem]

Another point, people who get their console modded, or mod it on their own are well aware of the risk of getting banned.

When you mod your box you KNOW two things:
1. The warranty is void,
2. you risk Xbox Live access if you get caught.

 

[zak_mckraken]

While I understand is in it's legal right to ban modders, I don't think it's a good thing for them. Ban people who plays illegal games on their modded Xbox, yes, but not those who have mods for backup purposes or other legal use.

If we make the ever-popular car analogy: Would Honda be right to ban the modding of Civics? Legally, maybe, but they would lose a lot of customers. However, modded Civic or not, you can't ride it at 100mph.

 

[Hope Slayer]

[citation][nom]sykozis[/nom]In class action suits, the "burden of proof" goes both ways. The plaintiffs will have to prove wrong-doing on Microsoft's behalf and Microsoft will have to prove that they were well within their rights under the terms of use agreement. If there are any grey areas in the terms of use, which is nearly unavoidable, MS will probably lose. Now, IF the terms of use states "any modification of any type"...then MS has already won as they've covered ALL possibilities. I haven't personally read the terms of use as I don't own an XBox, but the terms of use falls under contract law in most states, and is legally binding. If the terms of use forbid modification of the system, then MS is legally bound to ban ALL users of modified consoles, which means that the plaintiffs would have to prove that MS intentionally overlooked a significant number of modified Xbox users to prove any case against MS. One thing that most people don't understand, is that no class-action suit actually exists at this point. To gain class-action status, the plaintiff has to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that MS acted unfairly with regard to a significant number of users, then wait for a Judge to award class-action status to the complaint. It's not possible to simply file a class-action lawsuit, as it's not considered a civil action and requires certification from a Judge.[/citation]

Wrong, burden of proof falls only on the plantiff, the respondent(Microsoft)only has to submit an answer (terms of usage, reason for bans, ect.) to the plantiff's case. If reasonable liability or fault is found at that point then yes it would move to trial like you said, but it is still up to the plantiff to prove gross fault against the defendants answer during the exploration phase of the trial, the defendant doesn't even have to show up in court.

 

[atticus052]

I personally appreciate the fact that microsoft did what they do, I don't want to deal with cheaters in any online game. Furthermore, piracy is just stealing, it should be an assumed risk and many of the people should be happy they arn't being prosecuted for theft (and grand theft in some cases) like the music industry has done.

 

[ssalim]

I'm sorry if you are a legit user with modded console for sole honest purpose of backup - but it's still illegal. You mod = you are banned (if caught). Bottom line. Take it or leave it. If you mod for whatever reason, then be prepared the consequences.

 

[foody]

This seems a little too common sense for a a big law suit to me. It's pretty obvious that Microsoft or Sony would ban modded hardware if they knew about it.

 

[Guest]

Just another reason to buy a PS3. Again the 360 ends up costing more than a PS3.

 

[matt_b]

[citation][nom]Honis[/nom]If they ban you from that service because you broke the user agreement of that service (the one you agreed to at least once with a button click), then guess what, sue away and hope your lawyer only collects if you do and the people your suing find it cheaper to settle than take you to court.MS is within its rights in this case based on my armchair lawyering skills.[/citation]
No armchair lawyer-ing skills needed here. This case is cut and dry, terms of use (which all Live users must agree to in order to play) clearly spell out that modification of your console voids your contract with Microsoft to use their service. There is no gray line here........

 

[sidran32]

Like I said in the previous article (I got to it late):

The reason that these were banned and that it's against the ToS is partially the same reason why performing upgrades on your computer tower voids the warranty. They can support and service the device when they know that no one has touched the internals besides them. But if you go in and start mucking around with mod chips and unauthorized hardware, so many things can go wrong and be broken and they cannot realistically support all possibilities of what one could do inside them.

On top of that, they are safeguarding the security of the XBox Live network. A modded console can conceivably attack the network, reducing its stability or reliability, allow for cheating, which EVERYONE should recognize makes the games not fun (precise reason I stopped playing Gunz is that everyone literally was cheating).

What they are doing is simply safeguarding the quality and availability of the service they provide to gamers.

 

[jgiron]

I think MS has other motives than being the pirate cop. They ban it right before the holiday season and right before one of the best selling games in history comes out (MW2). Forcing those who want to play the Xbox Live to shell out another $200 bucks or so to play the game online.

They might be in their right to ban the console but the timing was planned (in my opinion).

 

[brantdk]

I had my Xbox banned even though it hasnt been on for 3 week. The first Time I turned it on since I came home from vacation, it said that I was ban. Fair enoug as it was modded. I dont play on Live anyways. BUT that gives MS no right to corrupt my hard disk or messing around with the Xbox as a extender. The violation of the Xbox Live Terms of Use is for LIVE and not for anything else. I have purschase the xbox and should be able to use it as I find best. If Im not allow to use thier online service, so be it but dont mess around with what I use it for on my intern network...