More Questions About Cables

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"Pete Dimsman" <pd@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2r6derF15umoaU1@uni-berlin.de...

> Look, I wasn't tying to start an argument, just pointing out that bare
> wire use *is* an option, even if there are usually better options.
>
> And I am quite sure you would find it on the back of speakers in plenty
> of "pro" studios.
>
Umm, I have a studio and my Radio Shack speakers use bare wire connectors.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com
 
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Dave Martin wrote:

> "Pete Dimsman" <pd@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:2r6derF15umoaU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> > Look, I wasn't tying to start an argument, just pointing out that bare
> > wire use *is* an option, even if there are usually better options.
> >
> > And I am quite sure you would find it on the back of speakers in plenty
> > of "pro" studios.
>
> Umm, I have a studio and my Radio Shack speakers use bare wire connectors.

The OP posted about instrument amps, mixers, processors, PA amps, amp direct
outs, instrument speaker cabs - in fact just about everything that would never
use bare ends.

In what capacity do you use your Radio Shack speakers in a 'pro' studio ? Like
Auratones I guess ?


Graham
 
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Pooh Bear wrote:

> In what capacity do you use your Radio Shack speakers in a 'pro' studio ? Like
> Auratones I guess ?

There were some Optimus models that were useful mix checkers. And if you
haven't visited Java Jive on the web, you should. Like good outbaird
kit? JJ offers a heavy drool coefficient.

--
ha
 
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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:414E0B52.1CA8B1D8@hotmail.com...

> In what capacity do you use your Radio Shack speakers in a 'pro' studio ?
Like
> Auratones I guess ?
>
yep.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com
 
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hank alrich wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> > In what capacity do you use your Radio Shack speakers in a 'pro' studio ? Like
> > Auratones I guess ?
>
> There were some Optimus models that were useful mix checkers. And if you
> haven't visited Java Jive on the web, you should. Like good outbaird
> kit? JJ offers a heavy drool coefficient.

I had a quick peek.


Graham
 
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On 19 Sep 2004 20:49:35 -0700, MCDrumman@excite.com (Mike) wrote:

>Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
>all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
>posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
>from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
>I apologize. I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just want to know FOR
>SURE which cables to use where. Please read my original post and tell
>me. Thanks!!!!

"How many times have we seen upon the cheek of the person with whom we
are talking the horse that was passing in the distance. Our bodies
penetrate the sofas on which we sit, and the sofas penetrate our
bodies, just as the tram that passes enters the houses, which in their
turn throw themselves upon the tram and are merged with it."
-Futurist Manifesto, 1910

Chris Hornbeck
"The Ancient World overlooked the invention of machines not through
stupidity nor through superficiality. It turned them into playthings
in order to avoid repugnance." - Hanns Sachs 1942
 
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Mike wrote:

> Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
> all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
> posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
> from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?

Yes.

I answered your question precisely.

You use speaker cable to connect to speakers and shielded cable for everything else.

You may want to use *special types* of shielded cable in specific instances but all your examples only
needed the ordinary stuff.

Ok ?


Graham
 
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"Pete Dimsman" <pd@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2r5knfF16uh9hU1@uni-berlin.de
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>
>
>>> Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
>>> passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.

>> This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and
>> either 1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or
>> match, at each end.

> Not true.

True in the context of a conference related to profesional audio.

True in the context of the origional post.

>Most speaker cables have "nothing" on the ends, just bare wire.

No wonder you blather so steadily about politics Dimsman, you apparently
have no interest and no involvement in professional audio or audio
production.

> At least when you add consumer use into the equation, which would dwarf
> professional use.

You might want to try pushing that kind of trash in rec.audio.opinion, it
won't sell here. However, even audiophiles terminate their speaker cables as
a rule. Watch them argue over the relative merits of banana jacks versus
pins.
 
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In article <10ks79b1unc3035@corp.supernews.com> rcrowley7@xprt.net writes:

> You will find that cables made for high-
> impedance applications are designed to have significantly
> lower capacitance than the kinds of cables we normally use
> for conventional line- or mic-level applications. Using just
> any old conventional shielded cable in a hi-Z application
> caries a significant risk of high-frequency loss due to the
> source impedance and the cable capacitance.

Oh, it's not quite that bad. And in fact, the lowest capacitance cable
is that designed for digital audio (AES/EBU). The thing you need to
watch out for in guitar cables - high impedance source, high impedance
input unbalanced input - is inadequate shielding and excessive
handling noise. You can always lower the capacitive loading by using a
shorter cable (stand closer to your amplifier).


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 

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Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<414E5DB9.186B0BA2@hotmail.com>...
> Mike wrote:
>
> > Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
> > all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
> > posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
> > from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
> Yes.
>
> I answered your question precisely.
>
> You use speaker cable to connect to speakers and shielded cable for everything else.
>
> You may want to use *special types* of shielded cable in specific instances but all your examples only
> needed the ordinary stuff.
>
I apologize. You did indeed answer my question. I was just getting
confused with all the other opinions.

Let me ask a question to your answer. The part about connecting the
speakers with speaker cables is crystal clear. But SHOULD I use
sheilded cables for the other connections? Would it be unwise to use
an unsheilded speaker cable for the other connections? Say connecting
a power amp to a mixing board for example.
> Ok ?
>
>
> Graham
 
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Mike wrote:

> Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
> all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
> posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
> from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
> I apologize. I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just want to know FOR
> SURE which cables to use where. Please read my original post and tell
> me. Thanks!!!!

Are you serious? Your question was answered numerous times. You use the
unshielded speaker cable to run between a power amp and speaker.
Everything else uses the shielded cable.
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Pete Dimsman" <pd@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:2r5knfF16uh9hU1@uni-berlin.de
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
>>>>passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
>
>
>>>This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and
>>>either 1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or
>>>match, at each end.
>
>
>>Not true.
>
>
> True in the context of a conference related to profesional audio.

No, plenty of "professional audio" monitors have bare wire connections.
I am not saying this is the best way, but it is reality.


> True in the context of the origional post.

The original poster sounds *far* from a professional audio participant
to me.


>>Most speaker cables have "nothing" on the ends, just bare wire.
>
>
> No wonder you blather so steadily about politics Dimsman, you apparently
> have no interest and no involvement in professional audio or audio
> production.

And what is your great involvement? A quick search of your name in All
Music comes up blank.


>
>>At least when you add consumer use into the equation, which would dwarf
>>professional use.
>
>
> You might want to try pushing that kind of trash in rec.audio.opinion, it
> won't sell here. However, even audiophiles terminate their speaker cables as
> a rule. Watch them argue over the relative merits of banana jacks versus
> pins.

My argument stands. Audiophiles are but a small section of audio speaker
users.

I should have added that my conclusion may not be totally correct as
many users now use computers for their music which typically have 1/8
inch connectors on thier supplied speaker wires. So maybe "most" is no
longer correct.

But, I stand by my contention that bare wire speaker connections are
still not uncommon.

(and what do you want to bet that a majority of people who set up
surround sound systems are still sticking bare wire into the terminal
connectors of their speakers?)
 
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In article <997eda1f.0409191949.76697b0c@posting.google.com> MCDrumman@excite.com writes:

> > But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:
> >
> > 1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
> > speaker(unsheilded)?

Shielded

> > 2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?

Shielded

> > 3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Shielded

> > 4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Shielded

> > 5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Shielded

> Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
> all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
> posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
> from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?

Concrete enough?

The thing is that once you get out the door of the music store, there
aren't "instrument" and "speaker" cables, there are cables (which is
just the wire) and cable assemblies which has connectors attached to
the wires. It's the "assembly" that makes a piece of single conductor
shielded cable with 1/4" phone plugs on each end an "instrument cable"
and a piece of two-conductor shielded cable with a male XLR connector
on one end and a female XLR connector on the other end a "mic cable."
But, it's true, that we tend to shorten "cable assembly" to "cable"
when we know what we're talking about, and tend to explain to someone
who wants to know about a "cable assembly" but asks about "cable" what
the difference is, often never getting around to the application.

There are many different designs for cables (Belden has a catalog
that's half an inch thick) - different gages of wire, different types
and sizes of insulation, different types of shielding, different
methods of laying the wires together inside the cable - each is better
for some particular manufacturer. If you don't want to learn about all
of this and build your own cable assemblies (having a very good stock
of bulk cable and connectors on hand) you trust the companies that
sell cable assemblies to have chosen a reasonable cable type for the
intended application. An "instrument cable" will have particularly
good shielding, perhaps low capacitance, low handling noise (the cable
can act as a microphone) and will be very robust since guitarists tend
to abuse their cables.

These things tend to make a good instrument cable expensive, and you
may not need all of those characteristics to connect the output of a
mixer to the input of a power amplifier (since this is generally a
higher signal level with a low impedance source and less sensitive to
hum pickup, the loading effect of cable capacitance, and doesn't get
swung around by its connectors as much as an instrument cable. But an
instrument cable will certainly work in that application.

Is that more than you wanted to know?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
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Excellent. As usual, Mike has gone out of his way to put together a
beautiful explanation. Though, with this poster's attitude, I'm not so
sure he deserved it.

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <997eda1f.0409191949.76697b0c@posting.google.com> MCDrumman@excite.com writes:
>
>
>>>But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:
>>>
>>>1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
>>>speaker(unsheilded)?
>
>
> Shielded
>
>
>>>2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?
>
>
> Shielded
>
>
>>>3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
>
> Shielded
>
>
>>>4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
>
> Shielded
>
>
>>>5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
>
> Shielded
>
>
>>Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
>>all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
>>posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
>>from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
>
> Concrete enough?
>
> The thing is that once you get out the door of the music store, there
> aren't "instrument" and "speaker" cables, there are cables (which is
> just the wire) and cable assemblies which has connectors attached to
> the wires. It's the "assembly" that makes a piece of single conductor
> shielded cable with 1/4" phone plugs on each end an "instrument cable"
> and a piece of two-conductor shielded cable with a male XLR connector
> on one end and a female XLR connector on the other end a "mic cable."
> But, it's true, that we tend to shorten "cable assembly" to "cable"
> when we know what we're talking about, and tend to explain to someone
> who wants to know about a "cable assembly" but asks about "cable" what
> the difference is, often never getting around to the application.
>
> There are many different designs for cables (Belden has a catalog
> that's half an inch thick) - different gages of wire, different types
> and sizes of insulation, different types of shielding, different
> methods of laying the wires together inside the cable - each is better
> for some particular manufacturer. If you don't want to learn about all
> of this and build your own cable assemblies (having a very good stock
> of bulk cable and connectors on hand) you trust the companies that
> sell cable assemblies to have chosen a reasonable cable type for the
> intended application. An "instrument cable" will have particularly
> good shielding, perhaps low capacitance, low handling noise (the cable
> can act as a microphone) and will be very robust since guitarists tend
> to abuse their cables.
>
> These things tend to make a good instrument cable expensive, and you
> may not need all of those characteristics to connect the output of a
> mixer to the input of a power amplifier (since this is generally a
> higher signal level with a low impedance source and less sensitive to
> hum pickup, the loading effect of cable capacitance, and doesn't get
> swung around by its connectors as much as an instrument cable. But an
> instrument cable will certainly work in that application.
>
> Is that more than you wanted to know?
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
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Mike <MCDrumman@excite.com> wrote:
>
>Let me ask a question to your answer. The part about connecting the
>speakers with speaker cables is crystal clear. But SHOULD I use
>sheilded cables for the other connections? Would it be unwise to use
>an unsheilded speaker cable for the other connections? Say connecting
>a power amp to a mixing board for example.

Yes. Using an unshielded cable would be a very bad idea, as several people
have told you. You will have problems with noise pickup.

You might want to read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook, which is a
nice introduction to this sort of thing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:34:01 +0100, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mike wrote:
>
>> Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
>> all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
>> posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
>> from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
> Yes.
>
> I answered your question precisely.
>
> You use speaker cable to connect to speakers and shielded cable for
> everything else.
>
> You may want to use *special types* of shielded cable in specific
> instances but all your examples only needed the ordinary stuff.
>
> Ok ?

Indeed. You can buy shielded cable with most any current capacity you
can imagine. We used it on laser power system (Pulse Forming Network)
to handle 5000A at 2500V.

But most sound reinforcement requirements that's overkill
 
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In article <997eda1f.0409200708.24eb0da6@posting.google.com> MCDrumman@excite.com writes:

> Would it be unwise to use
> an unsheilded speaker cable for the other connections? Say connecting
> a power amp to a mixing board for example.

In general, yes, but in an emergency you might be able to get away
with it. If the output of the mixer is balanced properly, the input to
the mixer is balanced (differential), and you wire them up together
correctrly you shouldn't have a problem with hum pickup and the signal
will get where it's supposed to go. I once used a piece of lamp cord
to connect a microphone, but that doesn't mean I'd recommend that
anyone else do it.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
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Mike wrote:

> I apologize. I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just want to know FOR
> SURE which cables to use where. Please read my original post and tell
> me. Thanks!!!!

You didn't read your own post, wherein your description in the beginning
answers your own questions. Is it something that needs shielded cable or
is it not something that needs shielded cable? Now look at your list.

"Pros" expect that you, too, will invest some thinking here.

--
ha
 
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"Mike" <MCDrumman@excite.com> wrote in message
news:997eda1f.0409200708.24eb0da6@posting.google.com...

> I apologize. You did indeed answer my question. I was just getting
> confused with all the other opinions.
>
> Let me ask a question to your answer. The part about connecting the
> speakers with speaker cables is crystal clear. But SHOULD I use
> sheilded cables for the other connections? Would it be unwise to use
> an unsheilded speaker cable for the other connections? Say connecting
> a power amp to a mixing board for example.

Yes, it would be unwise to use an unshielded speaker cable for that. I've
done it, in an emergency, and gotten away with it by sheer dumb luck, but
you run the risk of picking up radio frequency interference (RFI) which can
cause all sorts of grief.

Peace,
Paul
 

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Thanks Mike. That sure was in depth, but I think I get the picture. Thanks again.

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1095683104k@trad>...
> In article <997eda1f.0409191949.76697b0c@posting.google.com> MCDrumman@excite.com writes:
>
> > > But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:
> > >
> > > 1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
> > > speaker(unsheilded)?
>
> Shielded
>
> > > 2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?
>
> Shielded
>
> > > 3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> Shielded
>
> > > 4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> Shielded
>
> > > 5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> Shielded
>
> > Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
> > all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
> > posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
> > from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
> Concrete enough?
>
> The thing is that once you get out the door of the music store, there
> aren't "instrument" and "speaker" cables, there are cables (which is
> just the wire) and cable assemblies which has connectors attached to
> the wires. It's the "assembly" that makes a piece of single conductor
> shielded cable with 1/4" phone plugs on each end an "instrument cable"
> and a piece of two-conductor shielded cable with a male XLR connector
> on one end and a female XLR connector on the other end a "mic cable."
> But, it's true, that we tend to shorten "cable assembly" to "cable"
> when we know what we're talking about, and tend to explain to someone
> who wants to know about a "cable assembly" but asks about "cable" what
> the difference is, often never getting around to the application.
>
> There are many different designs for cables (Belden has a catalog
> that's half an inch thick) - different gages of wire, different types
> and sizes of insulation, different types of shielding, different
> methods of laying the wires together inside the cable - each is better
> for some particular manufacturer. If you don't want to learn about all
> of this and build your own cable assemblies (having a very good stock
> of bulk cable and connectors on hand) you trust the companies that
> sell cable assemblies to have chosen a reasonable cable type for the
> intended application. An "instrument cable" will have particularly
> good shielding, perhaps low capacitance, low handling noise (the cable
> can act as a microphone) and will be very robust since guitarists tend
> to abuse their cables.
>
> These things tend to make a good instrument cable expensive, and you
> may not need all of those characteristics to connect the output of a
> mixer to the input of a power amplifier (since this is generally a
> higher signal level with a low impedance source and less sensitive to
> hum pickup, the loading effect of cable capacitance, and doesn't get
> swung around by its connectors as much as an instrument cable. But an
> instrument cable will certainly work in that application.
>
> Is that more than you wanted to know?