More Questions About Cables

[Mike]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.

I can understand the "general" concept of cables.

Instrument cable: shielded, to prevent noise, generally small, as not
"a lot" of current is passing through; example: guitar to guitar amp.

Speaker cable: unsheilded, usually larger diameter for more current
passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.

If my perception I've listed above is incorrect, please forgive me and
enlighten me.

But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:

1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
speaker(unsheilded)?

2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?

3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike, speaker cables to, , , , speakers.

Mike wrote:

> Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.
>
> I can understand the "general" concept of cables.
>
> Instrument cable: shielded, to prevent noise, generally small, as not
> "a lot" of current is passing through; example: guitar to guitar amp.
>
> Speaker cable: unsheilded, usually larger diameter for more current
> passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
>
> If my perception I've listed above is incorrect, please forgive me and
> enlighten me.
>
> But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:
>
> 1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
> speaker(unsheilded)?
>
> 2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?
>
> 3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> 4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> 5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Keep it simple:

1. Between the output of a power amp and a speaker,
one typically uses unshielded speaker cable.

2. ALL other connections (mic level, line level, etc.)
take shielded cable.

3. Some connections (like e-guitar inputs) take special
high-impedance shielded cable.

Note that powered speakers fall under rule #2. They are
typically "line-level".

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike wrote:

> Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.

If it's actually connected to a speaker cabinet you use speaker cable.

All other application use shielded cable.


Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike" <MCDrumman@excite.com> wrote in message
news:997eda1f.0409182022.63961f03@posting.google.com

> Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.

> I can understand the "general" concept of cables.

> Instrument cable: shielded, to prevent noise, generally small, as not
> "a lot" of current is passing through; example: guitar to guitar amp.

This cable generally has one shielded 18-24 gauge conductor, braid or foil
shielding and 1/4" phone plugs at each end.

> Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
> passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.

This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and either
1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or match, at each
end.

> If my perception I've listed above is incorrect, please forgive me and
> enlighten me.

You left out the third kind of cable which is actually the most common - the
mic or line-level cable.

Mic or line level cable: two 18-24 gauge conductors, braid or foil shielded
to prevent noise, generally small, as not "a lot" of current is passing
through; example: microphone to preamplifier, or mixing console to power
amplifier.

Note braid shield is preferred for use where there is a lot of flexing, foil
can be used for installed cables with little flexing. There may be more than
one layer of shields, and a shielded conductor may be composed of 2 parallel
wires.

This cable generally has two shielded conductors, TRS plugs or XLR
connectors, mix or match.

> But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:

> 1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(shielded) or
> speaker(unshielded)?

Mic or line level cable:

> 2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?

Mic or line level cable:

3)From mixing board to monitor amp - instrument or speaker?

Mic or line level cable:

> 4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Mic or line level cable, or perhaps an instrument cable.

> 5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Mic or line level cable, or perhaps an instrument cable.

 

[Mike]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<414D179F.E96B353D@hotmail.com>...
> Mike wrote:
>
> > Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> > but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> > looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.
>
> If it's actually connected to a speaker cabinet you use speaker cable.
>
> All other application use shielded cable.
>
>
> Graham

Ok, this makes some sense. But why do I need to use shielded cables
for the other connections I mentioned earlier? Since shielded cables
are instrument cables, the only time I can see to use it is for an
instrument, as in my example guitar to guitar amp.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny Krueger wrote:



>>Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
>>passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
>
>
> This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and either
> 1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or match, at each
> end.

Not true. Most speaker cables have "nothing" on the ends, just bare
wire. At least when you add consumer use into the equation, which would
dwarf professional use.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley wrote:

>Keep it simple:
>
>1. Between the output of a power amp and a speaker,
>one typically uses unshielded speaker cable.
>
>2. ALL other connections (mic level, line level, etc.)
>take shielded cable.

So far, so good.

>3. Some connections (like e-guitar inputs) take special
>high-impedance shielded cable.

There is simply no such thing. Cables suitable for electric guitars may
be designed to exhibit low handling noise but are otherwise no different,
especially with regard to impedance, from those suitable for any low level,
unbalanced signal application.

>Note that powered speakers fall under rule #2. They are
>typically "line-level".

--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mkesti@gv.net | - The Who, Bargain

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>> 3. Some connections (like e-guitar inputs) take special
>> high-impedance shielded cable.

"Michael R. Kesti" wrote ...
> There is simply no such thing.

Of course there is. Many manufacturers make shielded cable
designed specifically for high-impedance (i.e. e-guitar) use.

> Cables suitable for electric guitars may be designed to exhibit
> low handling noise but are otherwise no different, especially
> with regard to impedance, from those suitable for any low level,
> unbalanced signal application.

Quite to the contrary. You will find that cables made for high-
impedance applications are designed to have significantly
lower capacitance than the kinds of cables we normally use
for conventional line- or mic-level applications. Using just
any old conventional shielded cable in a hi-Z application
caries a significant risk of high-frequency loss due to the
source impedance and the cable capacitance.

Perhaps you were thinking that we are talking about matched-
impedance transmission lines such as used for RF and high-
speed digital (like 110-ohm digital audio, 75-ohm video,
etc.)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 19 Sep 2004 09:25:47 -0700, MCDrumman@excite.com (Mike) wrote:

>
>Ok, this makes some sense. But why do I need to use shielded cables
>for the other connections I mentioned earlier? Since shielded cables
>are instrument cables, the only time I can see to use it is for an
>instrument, as in my example guitar to guitar amp.

All instrument cables are shielded cables. But not all shielded
cables are instrument cables.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike wrote:

> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<414D179F.E96B353D@hotmail.com>...
> > Mike wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> > > but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> > > looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.
> >
> > If it's actually connected to a speaker cabinet you use speaker cable.
> >
> > All other application use shielded cable.
> >
> >
> > Graham
>
> Ok, this makes some sense. But why do I need to use shielded cables
> for the other connections I mentioned earlier? Since shielded cables
> are instrument cables, the only time I can see to use it is for an
> instrument, as in my example guitar to guitar amp.

Your association of shielding purely with *instrument leads* is is a misunderstanding.

Shielding is most critical with low level signals, high impedance signals or unbalanced signals but it's
simplest to use shielded cable for *all* interconnections since it avoids problems.

You probably *could* run a line level balanced signal anywhere without shielding and get acceptable results -
but why bother, when the same XLR shielded cable works equally well for this application as it does for a mic
cable ?

Even computer data cable are normally shielded.

There are of course - variations of shielded cables that use different methods of shielding. These tend to be
application specific for optimum performance - but this is more advanced stuff.


Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pete Dimsman wrote:

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> >>Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
> >>passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
> >
> >
> > This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and either
> > 1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or match, at each
> > end.
>
> Not true. Most speaker cables have "nothing" on the ends, just bare
> wire. At least when you add consumer use into the equation, which would
> dwarf professional use.

But this newsgroup is .pro !

Actually, Arny left out XLRs on speaker leads. Prior to the introduction of
Speakons, most pros used XLRs for speakers ( 3 pin version has 15A rating and
decent size solder buckets ) . Many still do - especially for stage monitors imho.

Indeed XLRs are way better speaker connections than 1/4" jacks due to larger
contact area. Use a 1/4" jack for a few hundred watts and it'll get hot due to
contact resistance.

It would be *very* non-pro to use wire ends for live use.

Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Pete Dimsman wrote:
>
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
>>>>passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
>>>
>>>
>>>This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and either
>>>1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or match, at each
>>>end.
>>
>>Not true. Most speaker cables have "nothing" on the ends, just bare
>>wire. At least when you add consumer use into the equation, which would
>>dwarf professional use.
>
>
> But this newsgroup is .pro !

Doesn't change the facts.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:


> But this newsgroup is .pro !

Perhaps you should re-read the original post.

 

[Mike]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

MCDrumman@excite.com (Mike) wrote in message news:<997eda1f.0409182022.63961f03@posting.google.com>...
> Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.
>
> I can understand the "general" concept of cables.
>
> Instrument cable: shielded, to prevent noise, generally small, as not
> "a lot" of current is passing through; example: guitar to guitar amp.
>
> Speaker cable: unsheilded, usually larger diameter for more current
> passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
>
> If my perception I've listed above is incorrect, please forgive me and
> enlighten me.
>
> But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:
>
> 1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
> speaker(unsheilded)?
>
> 2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?
>
> 3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> 4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> 5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?

I apologize. I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just want to know FOR
SURE which cables to use where. Please read my original post and tell
me. Thanks!!!!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pete Dimsman wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> > But this newsgroup is .pro !
>
> Perhaps you should re-read the original post.

Why would that make a difference ?

It's about instrument amps and stuff. You don't use wire ends on them
either !

Only hi-fi ppl and idiots use bare ends ( where 'whiskers' can short out
nicely ).

You *can* find the use of 'connectorless' connections on some permanent
audio installs however where the like of Phoenix etc terminal blocks are
provided for signal level connections ( see QSC contractor products for
example ).

Permanent install contractors do this to save the cost of connectors.
I'll bet they put a crimp lug on the speaker wires though before
tightening up the output terminals.


Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:

>>>But this newsgroup is .pro !
>>
>>Perhaps you should re-read the original post.
>
>
> Why would that make a difference ?

I think you missed the point. The poster's question would not indicate
very much "pro" experience.


> It's about instrument amps and stuff. You don't use wire ends on them
> either ! Only hi-fi ppl and idiots use bare ends ( where 'whiskers' can short out
> nicely ).



Wrong, it is about speaker use versus everything else. The everything
else would almost always use connecters, most commonly 1/4" or xlr,
though bare wires are used on screw terminals on many pro pieces and
patch bays.

The speaker use would in no way exclude bare wires, even for your
worshiped "pro" use.

Many (all?) "pro" monitor speakers have facilities for bare wire hook
up. I have some where I use banana plugs, others I have wired with bare
wire. So, I guess I'm an idiot.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Michael R. Kesti" wrote:

> Richard Crowley wrote:
>
> >Keep it simple:
> >
> >1. Between the output of a power amp and a speaker,
> >one typically uses unshielded speaker cable.
> >
> >2. ALL other connections (mic level, line level, etc.)
> >take shielded cable.
>
> So far, so good.
>
> >3. Some connections (like e-guitar inputs) take special
> >high-impedance shielded cable.
>
> There is simply no such thing. Cables suitable for electric guitars may
> be designed to exhibit low handling noise

Yes.

> but are otherwise no different,
> especially with regard to impedance, from those suitable for any low level,
> unbalanced signal application.

Low capacitance.


Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pete Dimsman wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> >>>But this newsgroup is .pro !
> >>
> >>Perhaps you should re-read the original post.
> >
> >
> > Why would that make a difference ?
>
> I think you missed the point. The poster's question would not indicate
> very much "pro" experience.
>
> > It's about instrument amps and stuff. You don't use wire ends on them
> > either ! Only hi-fi ppl and idiots use bare ends ( where 'whiskers' can short out
> > nicely ).
>
> Wrong, it is about speaker use versus everything else. The everything
> else would almost always use connecters, most commonly 1/4" or xlr,
> though bare wires are used on screw terminals on many pro pieces and
> patch bays.

But not on instrument amps, mixers or processing gear that the OP mentioned.


> The speaker use would in no way exclude bare wires, even for your
> worshiped "pro" use.
>
> Many (all?) "pro" monitor speakers have facilities for bare wire hook
> up. I have some where I use banana plugs, others I have wired with bare
> wire. So, I guess I'm an idiot.

Stuffing bare wire up the hole in a 4mm terminal requires small gauge wire and risks the
dreaded whiskers..

Far bettter to put a crimp lug on the bare end.


Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:

> Far bettter to put a crimp lug on the bare end.

Agreed.

Look, I wasn't tying to start an argument, just pointing out that bare
wire use *is* an option, even if there are usually better options.

And I am quite sure you would find it on the back of speakers in plenty
of "pro" studios.