Must we trash an excellent laptop?

[papa]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

I have 3 laptops, none of them are password "protected", and never will be.
A password of any kind is breakable. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just
kidding themselves. The old argument that a password will stop thieves just
doesn't hold, nor does the argument hold that it "protects" your data. Not
so. If you want to stop thieves or protect your data, then lock up your
computer.

By the way, using your real email address in newsgroup posts just invites
spam (which often contains a virus).

 

[hank]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Can you pop the password on a few of these IBM 80 laptop hard drives
for me? Give you a free beer if you can.


> I have 3 laptops, none of them are password "protected", and never will be.
> A password of any kind is breakable. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just
> kidding themselves. The old argument that a password will stop thieves just
> doesn't hold, nor does the argument hold that it "protects" your data. Not
> so. If you want to stop thieves or protect your data, then lock up your
> computer.
>
> By the way, using your real email address in newsgroup posts just invites
> spam (which often contains a virus).

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Papa wrote:
>
> I have 3 laptops, none of them are password "protected", and never will be.
> A password of any kind is breakable. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just
> kidding themselves. The old argument that a password will stop thieves just
> doesn't hold, nor does the argument hold that it "protects" your data. Not
> so. If you want to stop thieves or protect your data, then lock up your
> computer.

While you seem to be the end-all and be-all, when it comes to computer
security, I'll continue use passwords.

Thanks for your input.

Notan

 

[hank]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Even with IBM Thinkpad drives with the password set?

Don't think so.

> No, any OS passwords are irrelevant as well. You remove the drive, plug it
> into a USB external case and hook into a different system. It is then
> totally accessable. The only protection then is if you had encrypted the
> data, and even then that can be broken given sufficient desire and a enough
> time. Most people don't encrypt their data.

 

[papa]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Not for just one beer, but for $100 per hour, yes.

"Hank" <hank@arlen.com> wrote in message
newsXVPc.3339$uC7.629@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> Can you pop the password on a few of these IBM 80 laptop hard drives
> for me? Give you a free beer if you can.
>
>
> > I have 3 laptops, none of them are password "protected", and never will
be.
> > A password of any kind is breakable. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just
> > kidding themselves. The old argument that a password will stop thieves
just
> > doesn't hold, nor does the argument hold that it "protects" your data.
Not
> > so. If you want to stop thieves or protect your data, then lock up your
> > computer.
> >
> > By the way, using your real email address in newsgroup posts just
invites
> > spam (which often contains a virus).
>
>

 

[papa]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
news:41102B85.AF3A691E@ddress.com...
> Papa wrote:
> >
> > I have 3 laptops, none of them are password "protected", and never will
be.
> > A password of any kind is breakable. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just
> > kidding themselves. The old argument that a password will stop thieves
just
> > doesn't hold, nor does the argument hold that it "protects" your data.
Not
> > so. If you want to stop thieves or protect your data, then lock up your
> > computer.
>
> While you seem to be the end-all and be-all, when it comes to computer
> security, I'll continue use passwords.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Notan

You're welcome.

 

[hank]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Also on some models a 'key' floppy disk was easily created to regain
access to the laptop.


> If it's a Toshiba, a password removal "key" can be used for most of the
> notebooks made in the last 10 years. Some of the new ones may be exceptions,
> as well as the early "T" series. Simply plug the "key" into the printer
> port, and turn the computer on. The password will be removed as it boots.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Your point gets into the philosophy of why this feature was implemented.
The view is that the drive is expendable, and that the data on the
drive (which SHOULD, of course, be backed up) is also expendable. What
was deemed to be not expendable was the SECURITY of the data. [I
believe that this feature was originally created for the military and
national security applications]. Again, the philosophy behind the
feature is a presumption that the laptop is lost / stolen, that the
legitimate owner has a backup, and that what is to be given first
priority is the security of the data -- that is, keeping it out of the
hands of anyone other than the rightful owner.


Jon A. Solworth wrote:

> Barry Watzman wrote:
>
>> For all major-brand laptops, the manufacturer, through it's service
>> centers, will clear the passwords of laptops for a fee and if you
>> provide proof that you are the rightful owner. The fee and the
>> standard of proof both vary. As far as I know, the manufactuers that
>> support hard drive passwords will not clear them under ANY
>> circumstances -- you are expected to replace the hard drive in those
>> situations.
>
>
> I'm a bit surprised to hear the latter. You would expect unrecoverable
> data to be a big problem. On the other hand, ownership of disk drives
> is not typically tracked, so it may be hard to establish to whom to
> provide the password.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

I have to disagree with your view on laptop passwords. If you travel
with a laptop, it should always be password protected. The question
isn't whether it can be broken, the question is whether or not it will
be broken. Passwords in hardware stop more than 95% of all of the
people who would access the laptop. Understand, what we are trying to
protect is not the laptop, it's the data. The thief does not know that
there is a password at the time of the theft, he doesn't find that out
until later. So the password won't do ANYTHING to deter the theft
itself, or to help in recovery. All that we want is for the data on the
hard drive not to be seen. We are not trying to prevent the theft itself.


Papa wrote:

> I have 3 laptops, none of them are password "protected", and never will be.
> A password of any kind is breakable. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just
> kidding themselves. The old argument that a password will stop thieves just
> doesn't hold, nor does the argument hold that it "protects" your data. Not
> so. If you want to stop thieves or protect your data, then lock up your
> computer.
>
> By the way, using your real email address in newsgroup posts just invites
> spam (which often contains a virus).
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Is the magnetic media inside the drive somehow specifically paired with the
hardware of the drive? If not, then couldn't the media be removed from the
drive and placed into a drive that can read it, thus bypassing the password?
If we're talking about national security, it sounds like government agencies
should easily be able to do this...even corporations. Wouldn't it make more
sense to strongly encrypt the data itself?

The drive password idea sounds like it could foil the low level criminal
(e.g. keeping credit card numbers somewhat safe) but could easily be
overcome by the average espionage agency or even local police force
electronic forensic division. It doesn't sound like a very good strategy
for military applications.

Just wondering.


"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:411038DE.3030805@neo.rr.com...
> Your point gets into the philosophy of why this feature was implemented.
> The view is that the drive is expendable, and that the data on the
> drive (which SHOULD, of course, be backed up) is also expendable. What
> was deemed to be not expendable was the SECURITY of the data. [I
> believe that this feature was originally created for the military and
> national security applications]. Again, the philosophy behind the
> feature is a presumption that the laptop is lost / stolen, that the
> legitimate owner has a backup, and that what is to be given first
> priority is the security of the data -- that is, keeping it out of the
> hands of anyone other than the rightful owner.
>
>
> Jon A. Solworth wrote:
>
> > Barry Watzman wrote:
> >
> >> For all major-brand laptops, the manufacturer, through it's service
> >> centers, will clear the passwords of laptops for a fee and if you
> >> provide proof that you are the rightful owner. The fee and the
> >> standard of proof both vary. As far as I know, the manufactuers that
> >> support hard drive passwords will not clear them under ANY
> >> circumstances -- you are expected to replace the hard drive in those
> >> situations.
> >
> >
> > I'm a bit surprised to hear the latter. You would expect unrecoverable
> > data to be a big problem. On the other hand, ownership of disk drives
> > is not typically tracked, so it may be hard to establish to whom to
> > provide the password.
>

 

[papa]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:41103C96.7010002@neo.rr.com...
> I have to disagree with your view on laptop passwords. If you travel
> with a laptop, it should always be password protected. The question
> isn't whether it can be broken, the question is whether or not it will
> be broken. Passwords in hardware stop more than 95% of all of the
> people who would access the laptop. Understand, what we are trying to
> protect is not the laptop, it's the data.

<snip>

As I said, "nor does the argument hold that it "protects" your data. Not so.
If you want to stop thieves or protect your data, then lock up your
computer." Passwords can, and are, broken.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

There are two laptops which are shared among the maintenance department.
This corporation is a small one and is not a rich one. In general, there is
trust among employees and they are good people, but there was this one
maintenance guy who was laid off... it's just a theory. I don't want to go
around accusing anyone. I just want to solve the problem.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Papa <bikingis@my.fun> wrote:
> As I said, "nor does the argument hold that it "protects" your data. Not so.
> If you want to stop thieves or protect your data, then lock up your
> computer." Passwords can, and are, broken.

It's something of a group defense - like certain insects being
poisonous. Of course it doesn't help the individual insect that it's
poisonous. It's dead already when it poisons the bird! But birds learn
that those insects are not good for them, and avoid them all (in this
case it's also too late for the bird if it experiments and gets it wrong
.

Peter

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

The hard drive password is implemented in a fairly straightforward
manner. There is a command to send a password to the hard drive, and
the hard drive simply won't work until this command is executed with the
proper password (which is stored in the hard drive). Normally, the hard
drive password is the same as the laptop password, and both are unlocked
at once.

It was done to protect very sensitive data, but to protect it from
access by "garden variety" entities. As a practical matter, you can't
protect anything from intelligence agencies if they want to get at it,
they have the technology and the resources to do so. But most laptop
thefts and losses are rather mundane, and the new "owner" of the laptop
is generally only interested in it's hardware value. Hard drive
passwords work quite well for that purpose, and they have not, in fact,
been broken on any significant scale. It wasn't intended to block
access by law enforcement or national security agencies, but it's FAR
more difficult to break than the more widely used passwords for the
laptops themselves.

Note, most laptops don't support this feature and don't even offer to
set a hard drive password. The most significant exception is IBM
Thinkpad laptops, which generally do support it.




Klenow wrote:

> Is the magnetic media inside the drive somehow specifically paired with the
> hardware of the drive? If not, then couldn't the media be removed from the
> drive and placed into a drive that can read it, thus bypassing the password?
> If we're talking about national security, it sounds like government agencies
> should easily be able to do this...even corporations. Wouldn't it make more
> sense to strongly encrypt the data itself?
>
> The drive password idea sounds like it could foil the low level criminal
> (e.g. keeping credit card numbers somewhat safe) but could easily be
> overcome by the average espionage agency or even local police force
> electronic forensic division. It doesn't sound like a very good strategy
> for military applications.
>
> Just wondering.
>
>
> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:411038DE.3030805@neo.rr.com...
>
>>Your point gets into the philosophy of why this feature was implemented.
>> The view is that the drive is expendable, and that the data on the
>>drive (which SHOULD, of course, be backed up) is also expendable. What
>>was deemed to be not expendable was the SECURITY of the data. [I
>>believe that this feature was originally created for the military and
>>national security applications]. Again, the philosophy behind the
>>feature is a presumption that the laptop is lost / stolen, that the
>>legitimate owner has a backup, and that what is to be given first
>>priority is the security of the data -- that is, keeping it out of the
>>hands of anyone other than the rightful owner.
>>
>>
>>Jon A. Solworth wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Barry Watzman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>For all major-brand laptops, the manufacturer, through it's service
>>>>centers, will clear the passwords of laptops for a fee and if you
>>>>provide proof that you are the rightful owner. The fee and the
>>>>standard of proof both vary. As far as I know, the manufactuers that
>>>>support hard drive passwords will not clear them under ANY
>>>>circumstances -- you are expected to replace the hard drive in those
>>>>situations.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm a bit surprised to hear the latter. You would expect unrecoverable
>>>data to be a big problem. On the other hand, ownership of disk drives
>>>is not typically tracked, so it may be hard to establish to whom to
>>>provide the password.
>>
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

> But most laptop
>thefts and losses are rather mundane, and the new "owner" of the laptop
>is generally only interested in it's hardware value

That's dated info. It's known now that over half of all company
networks that are compromised, have been done so with stolen
notebooks.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

AndrewJ wrote:
>
> > But most laptop
> >thefts and losses are rather mundane, and the new "owner" of the laptop
> >is generally only interested in it's hardware value
>
> That's dated info. It's known now that over half of all company
> networks that are compromised, have been done so with stolen
> notebooks.

You're talking about something completely different than the everyday,
run-of-the-mill laptop thief.

Notan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Any jerk lifting laptops already KNOWS how to clear the bios password.

Don

"AndrewJ" <andrewj@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8gcqg0lhtij1qierj0rkeejmnf6lbll5di@4ax.com...
>
>
> >Papa wrote:
> >>
> >> Could be. But the simplicity of the clearing procedure has certainly
not
> >> been addressed in this thread, nor has anyone posting to this thread
> >> answered the OPs question.
> >>
> >> So the question remains. How does one clear an existing BIOS password
if
> >> he/she forgets what it is?
> >
> >It may require proving proof of ownership, then sending it back to
> >the manufacturer for clearing.
> >
> >The whole idea behind BIOS/Harddrive/Whatever passwords is to make
> >it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for someone other than
> >the owner to gain access.
> >
> >Sounds like it's working, as planned.
> >
> >Notan
>
> Sure, and with one in four new notebooks getting stolen, there's no
> doubt in my mind that this one is also. To all the creeps helping
> these thieves in this thread, I hope their next notebook gets stolen.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

You think a laptop thief can't access your data if he/she wants??? I'll bet
any "pro" can circumvent the bios pw in about 3 minutes and pull data off
your hd in about 5. The only "protection" you have with ANY pw is when it's
viewed by unauthorized people while it's in your proper. If it leaves your
domain, the data is history.

The ONLY protection is removing the hd and taking it with you if it's your
data you're worried about. As far as "making a doorstop" out of it just
because you have a bios pw enabled, that's bunk.

Thats like saying no will will write a new virus after MS does a new
security patch.

Don

"JHEM" <James@ESAD_SPAMMERS.thinkpads.com> wrote in message
news:%OsPc.14476$UN2.3599@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> Papa <bikingis@my.fun> wrote:
> > Well, judging from the comments in this thread, looks like setting up
> > a BIOS password is one of the worst ideas a user can come up with.
>
> Only if you're not concerned with protecting your data!
>
> If _YOU_ haven't set power on and BIOS (supervisor) passwords on your
> laptop, then _anyone_ who has access to it can do so without your
knowledge.
>
> Plus, if you are so unlucky as to have your laptop stolen, you can at
least
> take some measure of comfort from the fact that it will be little more
than
> a doorstop to the thief!
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> James
>
> Checkout the NEW Thinkpad Forums: http/forum.thinkpads.com
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Exactly. PW are only good for unauthorized viewing of your data. Like an
associate viewing your files while you're out to lunch or something.

They do NOT deter theft in my opinion. I always USE pws, but I understand
their usefulness.

That's why I use a Sager NP8887...no one can walk off with it. They need a
hand-truck

Don

"Papa" <bikingis@my.fun> wrote in message
news:%mZPc.8310$cK.5420@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:41103C96.7010002@neo.rr.com...
> > I have to disagree with your view on laptop passwords. If you travel
> > with a laptop, it should always be password protected. The question
> > isn't whether it can be broken, the question is whether or not it will
> > be broken. Passwords in hardware stop more than 95% of all of the
> > people who would access the laptop. Understand, what we are trying to
> > protect is not the laptop, it's the data.
>
> <snip>
>
> As I said, "nor does the argument hold that it "protects" your data. Not
so.
> If you want to stop thieves or protect your data, then lock up your
> computer." Passwords can, and are, broken.
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:410FADED.9040804@neo.rr.com...
The hard drive password was
> implemented to insure that DATA was not accessed by unauthorized users,
> and was philosophically based on the idea that security of the data was
> far more critical than the value of the hardware.
>

Bingo!! My point exactly.

Don