Photography: Artist vs technician

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Mike Henley wrote:

> eawckyegcy@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Say ... from which context-free grammar generator did you obtain that
>> output?
>
> This output: "[...]"?
>
> I don't recall obtaining that output. 😛
>
> Would you like to point out precisely what you're talking about?

I want to share with you a very deep concern I have about Mike Henley.
But first, let me pose you a question: Is Henley actually concerned
about any of us, or does he just want to take credit for others'
accomplishments? After reading this letter, you'll sincerely find it's
the latter. This march into illaudable propagandism is not happening by
mere chance. It is not, as many intrusive polemics insist, the result
of the natural, inevitable course of things. It is happening as a
direct result of Henley's prissy anecdotes. Worst of all, our
children's children would never forgive us for letting him use terms of
opprobrium such as "negligent fast-buck artists" and "amoral
extremists" to castigate whomever he opposes. I just want to say that
even when he isn't lying, he's using facts, emphasizing facts, bearing
down on facts, sliding off facts, quietly ignoring facts, and, above
all, interpreting facts in a way that will enable him to detach
individuals from traditional sources of strength and identity --
family, class, private associations.

I have taken the liberty of letting Henley know that if one dares to
criticize even a single tenet of his cock-and-bull stories, one is
promptly condemned as mad, silly, vindictive, or whatever epithet he
deems most appropriate, usually without much explanation. He insists
that honor counts for nothing. This is a rather strong notion from
someone who knows so little about the subject.

Particularly telling is the way that Henley is absolutely determined to
believe that the majority of treasonous geeks are heroes, if not
saints, and he's not about to let facts or reason get in his way. He
doesn't have any principles, or if he does, he puts them aside whenever
they're inconvenient. Just to add a little more perspective, if you
want to hide something from him, you just have to put it in a book.
Henley is terrified that there might be an absolute reality outside
himself, a reality that is what it is, regardless of his wishes,
theories, hopes, daydreams, or decrees. Let me leave you with one last
thought: I indeed have no sympathy for Mike Henley.
 
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Stacey wrote:

>
> Sure, you only have to read the posts here to see that.
> Some people are solely into the technical side. They do
> mostly "test shots", study the results with a microscope
> and seem mainly interested in measuring the measurable
> aspects of their results.

This is an equipment group Stacey. That is the subject, and people will
do as they please. Very few of my photos are "test shots".

Those who have a keen technical interest also shoot for the pleasure of
making beautiful photos. At that point, since most photos we shoot have
at least 'something' that bothers us aesthetically, we discuss that
elsewhere if so inclined; for things that bother us technically, we
discuss it here. In an equipment group.

http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsyscharter.htm (easy reading v. of
charter) or http://tinyurl.com/8hjyn (orig text of charter)

Discussions of photography in general are at alt.photography and other
NG's and webpage based forums.

Far less than 1% of my photography (that is to say, less than 1% of the
"keepers") are posted. I post those images that I think are nice,
interesting, that have a statement to make. I don't post images of
people I have shot which makes up a considerable amount of the whole.
(I have in the past, but trolls have taken their toll).

But, unlike other self inflated 'experts' around here, I *do* post
images that are there just for the sake of being nice images.

Beyond that I do post 'test' images that can illustrate a point. But
'Test' images represent a tiny fraction of them all.

Further, in activities like the rpe35mm SI, (in which you would most
certainly be welcome as participant and mandator), image comments and
critiques are about the image and how the photographer interpreted the
mandate. Technical issues come up only as they might improve or vary
the result. So please join in and we'll all benefit from your artisitic
side.

Cheers,
Alan.

--
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Mike Henley wrote:
> Dick R. wrote:
>>Tony wrote:
>>
>>>Some of us got into photography because we didn't have the drawing skills we
>>>wanted.
>>> What I have noticed over the years though is that relatively few
>>>photographers are interested in it as art. They have never studied art,
>>>don't look at art and talk only of the technical aspects. In many ways they
>>>sound like the guys who put a supercharged bored and stroked mill into a 36
>>>Ford -- right after they destroy the lines of it by chopping it and painting
>>>flames on the cutaway fenders.
>>>
>>
>>Hey Tony,
>>I certainly won't disagree with your observations, but what is art?
>>Jackson Pollak and Leonardo Da Vinci produced "art", but it's
>>strictly in the eye of the beholder. Currently, I look at photos
>>by people like Jim Brandenburg, who have an artistic "eye" and
>>the technical expertise to make a great photo.
>
> I disagree here, and this is something that I've read books about
> lately; as I said in my other post in this thread, art had been
> formalised since antiquity and it has its conventions and language, and
> those from a background of "fine arts" are well versed in them. What
> you're referring to as being in the eye of the beholder is more
> accurately referred to as "taste". Someone knowledgeable in "fine arts"
> will appreciate the artistic merits of a piece or art, not matter what
> his tastes are. The chances are though that the more you know about
> fine "art", the more "refined" your taste becomes. To use the wine
> analogy again, if you're knowledgeable enough about wine you'll
> appreciate the subtleties in the taste of a "fine wine", and appreciate
> it as a no-mediocre-thing and the work of a master winemaker, whether
> you like its taste or not.
>
Hi Mike,
Please know that my tongue is firmly in cheek. I certainly agree that
a "fine art" appreciation class might help a person appreciate some of
the classic and contemporary artworks, but I maintain that there are
exceptions.
Take, for instance, the "artist" who frames a blank canvas and receives
accolades from people who appreciate the simplicity of the artwork.
If I were an acclaimed "artist", I'm sure a gallery would display my
"cowpie on a rocking chair", and many people would love it!
Taste: A lot of this "art" isn't very tasty to me, but that's JMHO.

Take care,
Dick R.
 
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Mike Henley wrote:
>
> Dick R. wrote:
>
>>Tony wrote:
>>
>>>Some of us got into photography because we didn't have the drawing skills we
>>>wanted.
>>> What I have noticed over the years though is that relatively few
>>>photographers are interested in it as art. They have never studied art,
>>>don't look at art and talk only of the technical aspects. In many ways they
>>>sound like the guys who put a supercharged bored and stroked mill into a 36
>>>Ford -- right after they destroy the lines of it by chopping it and painting
>>>flames on the cutaway fenders.
>>>
>>
>>Hey Tony,
>>I certainly won't disagree with your observations, but what is art?
>>Jackson Pollak and Leonardo Da Vinci produced "art", but it's
>>strictly in the eye of the beholder. Currently, I look at photos
>>by people like Jim Brandenburg, who have an artistic "eye" and
>>the technical expertise to make a great photo.
>
>
> I disagree here, and this is something that I've read books about
> lately; as I said in my other post in this thread, art had been
> formalised since antiquity and it has its conventions and language, and
> those from a background of "fine arts" are well versed in them. What
> you're referring to as being in the eye of the beholder is more
> accurately referred to as "taste". Someone knowledgeable in "fine arts"
> will appreciate the artistic merits of a piece or art, not matter what
> his tastes are. The chances are though that the more you know about
> fine "art", the more "refined" your taste becomes. To use the wine
> analogy again, if you're knowledgeable enough about wine you'll
> appreciate the subtleties in the taste of a "fine wine", and appreciate
> it as a no-mediocre-thing and the work of a master winemaker, whether
> you like its taste or not.
>
>
>
>
>
>>Hate to say it, but I would love to have that supercharged, chopped,
>>flame painted 36 Ford in my garage. 🙂
>>
>>Take care,
>>Dick R.
>
>
I have seem some art I definitely didn't 'like' but then some art is not
INTENDED to be 'liked', but to evoke a response. If it does, it is
good, if not, well, maybe the next observer will respond. It is not
necessary to like art to appreciate it.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
 
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Colin D wrote:

A virgin Mary encased in a condom? The artist calling the icon a dick?
Or was the just putting a test of faith to the religious nuts? Let
them squirm.

> 'Fine art' that does not please is an oxymoron.

The point is to communicate, not to please. The real world is more
than just puppy dogs, laughing children and happy endings for movies.
Your sentiments are just as kooky as the art critics you (rightly)
criticize...
 
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Alan Browne wrote:

> Stacey wrote:
>
>>
>> Sure, you only have to read the posts here to see that.
> > Some people are solely into the technical side. They do
> > mostly "test shots", study the results with a microscope
> > and seem mainly interested in measuring the measurable
> > aspects of their results.
>
> This is an equipment group Stacey. That is the subject, and people will
> do as they please. Very few of my photos are "test shots".
>


Sure it is but there is a lot of "subjective quality" factors that these
people ignore when doing a "review" of equipment. Everything doesn't boil
down to something scientifically measureable and I've seen them go as far
as saying if they can't measure it with their toolkit, then it doesn't
exist. Bokeh is a prime example of a thing some "techies" claim doesn't
exist.

--

Stacey
 
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Siddhartha Jain wrote:

> Roxy d'Urban wrote:
>> I would never hang somebody else's photographs in my house, but I would
>> hang a nice piece of art by somebody else in it.
>>
>
> Sounds more like jealosuy to me ;-)

Or intimidated?

--

Stacey
 
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Stacey wrote:

> Bokeh is a prime example of a thing some "techies" claim doesn't exist.

The "techies" are laughing themselves sick at the so-called artists who
can't bring themselves to learn about spherical abberation.
 
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On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:29:35 -0400, Stacey <fotocord@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Some people are solely into the technical side. They do mostly "test shots",
> study the results with a microscope and seem mainly interested in measuring
> the measurable aspects of their results. If you look at their work, mostly
> seems to be buildings and other man made objects. These also seem to be
> people in the IT world or similar professions.

I hope you're not generalizing about IT professionals.
We're not all "pixel peepers".

--
Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
--Josh Micah Marshall
 
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Ben Rosengart wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:29:35 -0400, Stacey <fotocord@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Some people are solely into the technical side. They do mostly "test
>> shots", study the results with a microscope and seem mainly interested in
>> measuring the measurable aspects of their results. If you look at their
>> work, mostly seems to be buildings and other man made objects. These also
>> seem to be people in the IT world or similar professions.
>
> I hope you're not generalizing about IT professionals.
> We're not all "pixel peepers".
>


Not at all, it's just I've noticed most of the heavy duty pixel peepers are
also IT pro's..
--

Stacey
 
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Roxy d'Urban <not@home.com> wrote:

> I've seen some truly wonderful photographs made by other people, and I
> have also seem some truly magnificent paintings made by other people too.
>
> I would never hang somebody else's photographs in my house, but I would
> hang a nice piece of art by somebody else in it.
>
> Am I weird?

I don't think so. It's because you're a photographer. If you were a
painter, you'd probably feel just the opposite. I know plenty of people
who want to hang photographs in their houses; I am not one of them, and
none of them is a photographer.

I don't even like having "snapshot of a friend" pictures that I didn't
take myself. Am I weird?

--
Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com
 
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"Jeremy Nixon" <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote in message
news:11ah9n4irq2pj7e@corp.supernews.com...
> Roxy d'Urban <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> I've seen some truly wonderful photographs made by other people, and I
>> have also seem some truly magnificent paintings made by other people too.
>>
>> I would never hang somebody else's photographs in my house, but I would
>> hang a nice piece of art by somebody else in it.
>>
>> Am I weird?
>
> I don't think so. It's because you're a photographer. If you were a
> painter, you'd probably feel just the opposite. I know plenty of people
> who want to hang photographs in their houses; I am not one of them, and
> none of them is a photographer.
>
> I don't even like having "snapshot of a friend" pictures that I didn't
> take myself. Am I weird?

But there are some things that you can't take yourself....If you were into
astronomy, (for example) you might have a photograph of the Horse's Head
Nebula taken by Hubble hanging in your house somewhere......
 
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On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:30:28 -0000, Jeremy Nixon <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote:
>
> I don't think so. It's because you're a photographer. If you were a
> painter, you'd probably feel just the opposite. I know plenty of people
> who want to hang photographs in their houses; I am not one of them, and
> none of them is a photographer.

Hm. I don't have anyone else's photographs on my wall, but I
wouldn't rule it out. Last time I went to the Met, they had a
Kertész poster for sale that I very nearly bought.

--
Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
--Josh Micah Marshall
 
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Stacey wrote:


>
> Sure it is but there is a lot of "subjective quality" factors that these
> people ignore when doing a "review" of equipment. Everything doesn't boil
> down to something scientifically measureable and I've seen them go as far
> as saying if they can't measure it with their toolkit, then it doesn't
> exist. Bokeh is a prime example of a thing some "techies" claim doesn't
> exist.

"Bokeh" is something difficult to quantify but I don't know of anyone
who says it doesn't exist. A number of people question the importance
of its qualities it in an image (or some kinds of images), and that is
their right to do so. While I might not really pay attention to
reasonably smooth bokeh, I might react to harsh bokeh if it doesn't fit
the style of the image.

So, we'll see you in the shoot-in? Even the current mandate may be of
interest to you and you have 10 days left to do it...

http://www.pbase.com/shootin/africa

Cheers,
Alan.



--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
 
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Randy Berbaum <rberbaum@bluestem.prairienet.org> wrote:
>
>And here may be the telling word.. Vision. Some of us compose the image
>in the camera lens and thus the "vision" is applied at the time of image
>capture. Others of us capture the image and then rely on their techical
>ability (and technical ability of the image manipulation software
>producers) to be creative durring post production. Of course there are
>many of us who are somewhere inbetween the two extremes with some element
>of image capture "vision" and some element of post production "vision".
>Either form of vision is valid and useful. As always in an art form where
>some of the "worth" of the finished product is based on the response of
>the viewer, how the result is viewed will be variable.


If most of the "vision" is applied at the post-processing stage, we
are no longer talking about photography.

I suppose we could call it "digital art with some input from
photography" but it ain't photography.
 
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"Tony Polson" <tp@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:dudha1515iuhd7koj95l9rpcg6uum6f0p3@4ax.com...
> Randy Berbaum <rberbaum@bluestem.prairienet.org> wrote:
>>
>>And here may be the telling word.. Vision. Some of us compose the image
>>in the camera lens and thus the "vision" is applied at the time of image
>>capture. Others of us capture the image and then rely on their techical
>>ability (and technical ability of the image manipulation software
>>producers) to be creative durring post production. Of course there are
>>many of us who are somewhere inbetween the two extremes with some element
>>of image capture "vision" and some element of post production "vision".
>>Either form of vision is valid and useful. As always in an art form where
>>some of the "worth" of the finished product is based on the response of
>>the viewer, how the result is viewed will be variable.
>
>
> If most of the "vision" is applied at the post-processing stage, we
> are no longer talking about photography.
>
> I suppose we could call it "digital art with some input from
> photography" but it ain't photography.
>
>
But surely darkroom work is a part of photography....At least, in the past
this was true. My dad spent many hours in the darkroom striving for good
print quality. The film was just the beginning of his photographs.
 
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Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>And some of us have a vision of vision, but lack both the vision and
>the technical ability. I love photography, I like taking pictures and
>the more I take, the more I like looking at the great ones (there was
>a great pre-War exhibit of German photography that just closed). But I
>just am not any good. Oh well. Maybe in 20,000 picture or so I will
>learn.


I think you have already learnt to enjoy it, which is probably more
important than anything else.
 
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Stacey <fotocord@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Some people are solely into the technical side. They do mostly "test shots",
>study the results with a microscope and seem mainly interested in measuring
>the measurable aspects of their results. If you look at their work, mostly
>seems to be buildings and other man made objects. These also seem to be
>people in the IT world or similar professions.
>
>Others seem to look more at the "total image" and ignore many of the small
>details (technical aspects?) as long as they aren't distracting. They seem
>to shoot a wide variety of subjects and focus on the ends rather than the
>means.
>
>Neither one is 'right' just different goals.


There is a third category, that of the technicians who think that mere
compliance with myriad "Rules" defines some kind of "vision".

Still, as long as they enjoy it ...

;-)
 
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Tony Polson wrote:

>
> There is a third category, that of the technicians who think that mere
> compliance with myriad "Rules" defines some kind of "vision".

Yet another thankfully small category is for those who talk a lot about
photography, claim to own a lot of equipment, claim prolific amounts of
shooting, such as 50 rolls per average *week*, to have had covers on
high circulation magazines such as Paris Match and a long list of other
unsubstantiated claims, yet: nary a photo posted to show a shred of
basic capability.

This same narrow category of persons post unfounded slights against
other posters, selective quoting, snipping and other false implications
in a vain, mean-spririted and cowardly attempt to stifle those who would
object to some or their statments.

eh Tony? Rise up to the level of a snake and maybe you'll get a smidgen
of respect.

Cheers,
Alan.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
 
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Alan Browne wrote:

> Stacey wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Sure it is but there is a lot of "subjective quality" factors that these
>> people ignore when doing a "review" of equipment. Everything doesn't boil
>> down to something scientifically measureable and I've seen them go as far
>> as saying if they can't measure it with their toolkit, then it doesn't
>> exist. Bokeh is a prime example of a thing some "techies" claim doesn't
>> exist.
>
> "Bokeh" is something difficult to quantify

Which is why many techies downplay it's importance. They can't measure it.


> but I don't know of anyone
> who says it doesn't exist.
> A number of people question the importance
> of its qualities it in an image (or some kinds of images), and that is
> their right to do so.

I suppose, just like tonal separation and dynamic range can be blown off by
these same people. Too hard to measure and graph..

> So, we'll see you in the shoot-in? Even the current mandate may be of
> interest to you and you have 10 days left to do it...
>

Maybe, maybe not. 🙂

--

Stacey