Recording Solo Flute

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In article <1109507902.820332.274140@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> dallen@frognet.net writes:

> sorry I think of ambience as in the sound of the room

Right - the sound that's excited by the flute (not the audience, the
TV set or the neighbor's lawn mower)

I don't care what your dictionary says. Try a different term if this
one doesn't really mean what you need. I'd say "reverb" but that's a
dirty word to this artist who likes the recording the way it is.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
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Neil,
Good luck with your project.... I'm definately with the more ambience
crowd :)

Mike
 

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On 2/26/05 8:51 PM, in article znr1109458175k@trad, "Mike Rivers"
<mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:

>
> In article <1109450102.203343.178820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> dallen@frognet.net writes:
>
>>> haven't listened, but the gist of the comments is that it needs more
>>> ambience.
>>
>> no, not more ambience, it needs more space to allow the sound of the
>> flute to gel, a small amount , just enough for all the sound waves to
>> fully join together and become a cohesive sound not all the parts of
>> the sound.
>
> That's part of what I call "ambience" - it's not added sound or
> extraneous noise, it's sound developed in an acoustical environment.

I define ambience as the sound OF the space itself.
'distance' is what I refer to as getti g far enough away from an instrument
to not hear predominantly only one of its many radiating sonic features.
 
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kevindoylemusic@rogers.com wrote:
> Al Schimdt says
> "For the mics, I still use the same mics I've been using for the last
> 30 years - the Neumann 67 and the M50s - and I'll use the new M149s
> and the new M150s when I can; those are great mics. But I still go to
> the old standbys. Some people like to use ribbon mics on brass and
will
> go with an [RCA] 77, but I've never used those much. If I'm going to
> use a ribbon mic, I'll use the new Royer - the SF-1; that's fabulous,
> too. For most brass, though, I'll use 67s and keep them in omni. I'll
> also use 67s on trombones. For sax, I like the M149."


Yeah, I guess if I had access to a lot of U-67's I might have a more
charitible opinion. Experience with U-87's and AKG 414's has left me
with nothing good to say about condensers on trumpet. I'm much happier
using nearly any ribbon mic, or an EV RE20 or RE15.
 
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Buster Mudd <mr_furious@mail.com> wrote:
>kevindoylemusic@rogers.com wrote:
>> Al Schimdt says
>> "For the mics, I still use the same mics I've been using for the last
>> 30 years - the Neumann 67 and the M50s - and I'll use the new M149s
>> and the new M150s when I can; those are great mics. But I still go to
>> the old standbys. Some people like to use ribbon mics on brass and
>will
>> go with an [RCA] 77, but I've never used those much. If I'm going to
>> use a ribbon mic, I'll use the new Royer - the SF-1; that's fabulous,
>> too. For most brass, though, I'll use 67s and keep them in omni. I'll
>> also use 67s on trombones. For sax, I like the M149."
>
>Yeah, I guess if I had access to a lot of U-67's I might have a more
>charitible opinion. Experience with U-87's and AKG 414's has left me
>with nothing good to say about condensers on trumpet. I'm much happier
>using nearly any ribbon mic, or an EV RE20 or RE15.

I never liked the U-67 on trumpet either... it's very sharp on the
top end and really exaggerates the blattiness. I'll tend to go with
a 77DX on a horn section if I am spotting it most of the time, and although
the RE-20 is severely underrated for all of this stuff, it doesn't do so
well on a whole section even though it's great on a single horn.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:32:45 -0500, Buster Mudd wrote
(in article <1109608365.306149.306340@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>):

> kevindoylemusic@rogers.com wrote:
>> Al Schimdt says
>> "For the mics, I still use the same mics I've been using for the last
>> 30 years - the Neumann 67 and the M50s - and I'll use the new M149s
>> and the new M150s when I can; those are great mics. But I still go to
>> the old standbys. Some people like to use ribbon mics on brass and
> will
>> go with an [RCA] 77, but I've never used those much. If I'm going to
>> use a ribbon mic, I'll use the new Royer - the SF-1; that's fabulous,
>> too. For most brass, though, I'll use 67s and keep them in omni. I'll
>> also use 67s on trombones. For sax, I like the M149."
>
>
> Yeah, I guess if I had access to a lot of U-67's I might have a more
> charitible opinion. Experience with U-87's and AKG 414's has left me
> with nothing good to say about condensers on trumpet. I'm much happier
> using nearly any ribbon mic, or an EV RE20 or RE15.
>

Try a different preamp...like a neve or gml.

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
 
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I normally don't do the 'critique' thing, but after hearing the sample
several times on the day it was posted, and now reading these amazingly
astute observations, I have to chime in.... even though I'm a couple of
days late.

Mike, where have you been for the past few years... have you posted
on r.a.p. before under a different name?

This is a wonderfully informed yet intuitive post. *Thank you*.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com


<mike.mermagen@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1109381780.465525.108810@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Neil,
> I don't know what kind of competition this recording will be up
> against, but I feel there are several issues that may keep your flutist
> from passing the tape round.
>
> The first thing I notice is that the recording acoustic is very dead,
> so it badly needs some reverb or better yet, a live acoustic. The flute
> doesn't have any sustain like a piano or even a string instrument, so
> when the sound stops... it really stops. This also accentuates the fact
> that your flutist does not sustain tone very well. There is a quick
> diminuendo on every note ending in thin wispy vibrato noises. Close
> miking captures all of that. A sense of space would also help the
> dynamics she is attempting. I don't hear much dynamics on your tape,
> but I do hear when she attempts to play really soft it is resulting in
> a severe lack of tone, yet still it is captured with prescence due to
> the close miking. Also, because of the lack of reverberance and
> sustained tone, the tempo, which may not be too slow, seems too slow,
> because there are so many 'holes' in the phrase.
>
> My apologies if this is more than you cared to hear.
>
> Mike
>
 
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"Neil Henderson" <neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM> wrote in message...

> Let me know what you guys think of the overall quality & the way it comes
> across. Thanks for your input!


Hi Neil,

I'm a day late and a dollar short, but I really didn't believe that anything I had
to say at the time was positive enough to benefit your end result. As the
conversation went on, it really sounded like you has what you wanted except
perhaps a little more distance & ambience. It's even more difficult now, to
speak after the likes of Karl, Hank, Mike Rivers and most especially Mike
Mermagen's observations were all offered up in time for you to consider
their application on Sunday. I hope all went well.

I also hope you'll give up another sample of the final recording.

My initial thoughts were pretty much along the same lines as the rest of
the "more ambience" crowd... the recording seemed to be a wee bit too
much 'in your face', which did indeed reveal flaws in the performance.

I'm interested in some details pertaining to the room that you used.

It sounded to me like there really wasn't much reflective ambience to
be taken advantage of. If I had to guess, I'd have said you were in a
relatively small room, say, not much larger than 14 x 16 feet with a
low acoustic ceiling, carpet and plenty of dampening on the walls. It
seemed like this was also a contributing factor in being able to pick
out the small deficiencies in the performance. 'Stark' might fit here.

Sometimes, using good mics and preamps can work against you.
The combination of the pair and the spot mic may have been a little
detrimental. It sounded as if they were each hearing something that
the other didn't like, which seemed to actually make the recording
sound somewhat 'smaller'.

The majority of anything I might have added was definitely covered
by Karl and Mike Mermagen - - though I might differ slightly with Karl's
intent on keeping the track totally dry. He's more than correct about
what the judges will be listening for, but depending on the calibre of
the purpose for the audition, I'm keenly aware that given an abundance
of entries and too few judges, that it's all too common to have entries
which aren't pleasing to listen to, end up being passed over. I'm inclined
to think that a wee bit of reverb, barely enough to simulate what appeared
to be missing ambience in your recording room, wouldn't have hurt.

I'd like to know what the audition was actually for. (?) I was surprised
to read that you were dealing with a Doctorate in music with a seat in
the local symphony. One thing I'll assume is that she doesn't actually
do a lot of recording as a solo or a part of a small ensemble. I say this
because along with Mike M.'s comments about the technique problems
that were revealed by the quality of the mics and their close positioning,
I could practically hear her heart beating during the take you posted. I
actually assumed this was a *much* younger player.

Since I've been doing Art's Recognition, Collegiate Scholarship auditions,
State and regional competitions, and advanced ensembles for the local
Arts Magnet high school for over 8 years now, I been in your shoes more
than just a few times. Two of my student recordings have helped to put
both of them on their way to performing in front of the president of the
United States. 22 Grammy's have been won by graduates of this school
(including Norah Jones, who I was the first knob-turner to record), and the
school has garnered the largest number of DownBeat Magazine awards
in the country. The album I did for the "Jazz One" Combo two years ago
took 13 Downbeat awards... and although, as it was in your case, it had
to be done totally live and in one pass, I used plenty of moderate reverb.

So.... let me apologize for not putting in my .02 cents worth earlier and
give you and your flautist my best wishes.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
 
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<kevindoylemusic@rogers.com> wrote:

> Recording Flute
>
> Most common horn sections these days are three or four pieces starting
> with alto sax, tenor sax, trumpet and the optional trombone. Horns are
> very transient in nature, especially trumpets.

Kevin,

Please read the subject line: "Recording Solo Flute".

Why post what you did about horn sections and stuff? This is just like
that first post of yours where a guy wants to record himself playing his
won calssical guitar at home and you go on about almost everything esle
except for what the guy says he wants to do.

--
ha
 
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"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1gsvd72.akksum1k8dsk1N%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> <kevindoylemusic@rogers.com> wrote:
>
>> Recording Flute
>>
>> Most common horn sections these days are three or four pieces starting
>> with alto sax, tenor sax, trumpet and the optional trombone. Horns are
>> very transient in nature, especially trumpets.
>
> Kevin,
>
> Please read the subject line: "Recording Solo Flute".
>
> Why post what you did about horn sections and stuff? This is just like
> that first post of yours where a guy wants to record himself playing his
> won calssical guitar at home and you go on about almost everything esle
> except for what the guy says he wants to do.

Most posts these days are about any subject other than the original post,
with the optional flame war based on the original post, then shooting off on
a tangent completely unrelated to the original post. Subject lines are very
transient in nature, especially those about anything besides politics....

(sorry, couldn't resist) :D

Neil Henderson
 
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<mike.mermagen@gmail.com> wrote great stuff in an earlier message...


Are you still out there Mike?

DM
 

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