Recording Solo Flute

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It's been quite some time since I've recorded any orchestral instruments, so
I wanted to get your take on this, especially those of you who do a decent
amount of this sort of thing. I'm recording a couple of pieces for a
flautist to use as an audition to perform at a flute convention coming up in
San Diego, and last night I had her come over to audition some different
mics & pres so she could pick which setup she liked best before we actually
record (that way she can just get right down to it & start playing in
earnest when we track the stuff). In any event, here's a link to a short
..wav file containing a segment using the setup she liked best. It's a
standard 16/44.1 .wav file, no processing, no dither, the only thing that's
been done is that it was recorded at 24 bit/88.2k, and exported out at the
16/44.1 bitrate/samplerate. It's about 20 seconds in length, and about
three-and-a-half megs in size.

http/www.saqqararecords.com/images/Melissa%20Practice%20Take-Sheep.wav

Let me know what you guys think of the overall quality & the way it comes
across. Thanks for your input!

Neil Henderson

 

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Neil Henderson wrote:
> It's been quite some time since I've recorded any orchestral
instruments, so
> I wanted to get your take on this, especially those of you who do a
decent
> amount of this sort of thing.
>
> Neil Henderson

Recording Flute

Most common horn sections these days are three or four pieces starting
with alto sax, tenor sax, trumpet and the optional trombone. Horns are
very transient in nature, especially trumpets. All will require good
condenser microphones placed approximately 1-2 feet away from the
instrument. With the instrument like a flute, the sound emanates from
the mouth and the body and needs to be captured uniformly. Most
flautists' prefer to record in a room where they can hear themselves
acoustically. It is very difficult for them to rely totally on
headphones for balance and pitch. The benefit of recording in a live
room will allow you to add in duration of resonance to the sound making
the flute sound bigger in sound duration. When recording try to record
an additional stereo ambiance track of the room. This will allow you
to create natural perspective if needed when mixing. If you want to add
reverb I would suggest a warm smooth hall or plate setting, and make
sure the length of the reverb does not corrupt the harmonic structure
of the performance. Using a pre-delay of 80-120 ms will indicate
intimacy in the playing. Using a short pre-delay and adding in a couple
of delays between 20-80 ms will create distantnce.
I prefer LD condensers for a full sound placed about 1-3 ft from the
flute.
If there a lot of unwanted dynamics, try compressing 4:1 with medium
attack and release times (30-80 ms).
This is not the rule, and is based on my experience with Matt Malloy
of "The Chieftains"

kevin Doyle

 

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Neil,

Where did you place the microphone? The clarity of the mic/preamp sounds
fine. To me it sounds like there's a bit too much of the sound of the body
of the flute (kind of a heavy midrange sound near the beginning of the
track). It's been awhile since I recorded flute. I recall placing the mic
high (7 feet up or so) and at least a foot away from the flutist. Of
course, I was working in a very dead room. If your room is more live, you
may have to compromise. Try a couple of different mic positions (maybe
even behind and off to the flute side).

The character of the mic and preamp sound nice. What did you use?

Any other opinions?

 

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kevindoylemusic@rogers.com wrote:
>
> Most common horn sections these days are three or four pieces
starting
> with alto sax, tenor sax, trumpet and the optional trombone. Horns
are
> very transient in nature, especially trumpets. All will require good
> condenser microphones placed approximately 1-2 feet away from the
> instrument.


Gosh, what horribly pedantic textbook did you copy that drivel out of?
Have you ever heard a trumpet recorded through a condenser mic? That'd
probably be my *last* choice!

 

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Hi Buster
You would be surprised!
Wyntom Marseilles swears by the sony C-38
The AMT series is very popular for trumpet recording by George
Massenburg and Mark Isham.
The DAP (B&K) are the number one choice for trumpets in Europe.all the
best
kevin

 

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Al Schimdt says
"For the mics, I still use the same mics I've been using for the last
30 years - the Neumann 67 and the M50s - and I'll use the new M149s
and the new M150s when I can; those are great mics. But I still go to
the old standbys. Some people like to use ribbon mics on brass and will
go with an [RCA] 77, but I've never used those much. If I'm going to
use a ribbon mic, I'll use the new Royer - the SF-1; that's fabulous,
too. For most brass, though, I'll use 67s and keep them in omni. I'll
also use 67s on trombones. For sax, I like the M149."

 

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nice sound
the top end has an edge
wonder if the levels were a hair hot, that high end transicient
flute.....

back the mics off, that might help that high flute tone smooth out
more before it hits the mic.
and maybe roll the aiming point of the mic like you were overshooting.

dale

 

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Neil,

No wonder I liked the character of the mic and preamp. You are working
with some wonderful equipment. I'm very intrigued by your mention of an
M-147 with a K-67 capsule. I'll probably have to wait for a long time
before I can afford something like that.

Did anyone else have some thoughts about the sound of the recording? I
feel a little sheepish being the only one to post my thoughts. I'm not as
experienced as many of you. However, I feel like an open discussion is the
best way for all of us to learn.

 

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dale wrote:
> nice sound
> the top end has an edge
> wonder if the levels were a hair hot, that high end transicient
> flute.....
>
> back the mics off, that might help that high flute tone smooth out
> more before it hits the mic.
> and maybe roll the aiming point of the mic like you were
overshooting.
>
> dale


I would also suggest backing off just a bit, but the risk is that you
might get too much room sound. Flute sounds best when all the
components blend well, which happens at a distance, and with the help
of good reverb. For an orchestral or school audition, this probably
won't matter much since most tapes aren't great and the people
listening will be listening for technique, breath control, phrasing,
etc. much more than sound. And for that, your recording is fine. I'd
watch out that it not be drenched in reverb or sound artificial because
it could work against the flautist in an audition setting.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http/www.lectrosonics.com

 

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Neil,
I don't know what kind of competition this recording will be up
against, but I feel there are several issues that may keep your flutist
from passing the tape round.

The first thing I notice is that the recording acoustic is very dead,
so it badly needs some reverb or better yet, a live acoustic. The flute
doesn't have any sustain like a piano or even a string instrument, so
when the sound stops... it really stops. This also accentuates the fact
that your flutist does not sustain tone very well. There is a quick
diminuendo on every note ending in thin wispy vibrato noises. Close
miking captures all of that. A sense of space would also help the
dynamics she is attempting. I don't hear much dynamics on your tape,
but I do hear when she attempts to play really soft it is resulting in
a severe lack of tone, yet still it is captured with prescence due to
the close miking. Also, because of the lack of reverberance and
sustained tone, the tempo, which may not be too slow, seems too slow,
because there are so many 'holes' in the phrase.

My apologies if this is more than you cared to hear.

Mike

 

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Neil Henderson wrote:
> "dale" <dallen@frognet.net> wrote in message
> news:1109366630.869532.23710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > nice sound
> > the top end has an edge
> > wonder if the levels were a hair hot, that high end transicient
> > flute.....
>
> Nah, the levels weren't hot... in the -7 range on the Avalon, and
although
> the Grace's don't have metering, the light never got past the "warm"
zone
> . Also, we're not hearing much of those mics, so I don't know if
it
> would make that much of a difference. Wasn't slamming the convertors,

> either - individual tracks had plenty of headroom... peaks were at
> maybe -3db max on the tracks.

that is a hot flute
transcients on the attack articulation are faster then almost all
meters
any compression ?

there is a harsh edge on those attack transcients.

dale

 

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"dale" <dallen@frognet.net> wrote in message
news:1109366630.869532.23710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> nice sound
> the top end has an edge
> wonder if the levels were a hair hot, that high end transicient
> flute.....

Nah, the levels weren't hot... in the -7 range on the Avalon, and although
the Grace's don't have metering, the light never got past the "warm" zone
. Also, we're not hearing much of those mics, so I don't know if it
would make that much of a difference. Wasn't slamming the convertors,
either - individual tracks had plenty of headroom... peaks were at
maybe -3db max on the tracks.

> back the mics off, that might help that high flute tone smooth out
> more before it hits the mic.
> and maybe roll the aiming point of the mic like you were overshooting.

I'll give that a shot & see what happens. Thanks! We're going to track it
for real on Sunday.

Neil Henderson

 

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"Karl Winkler" <karlwinkler66@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109373397.165729.89200@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> dale wrote:
>> nice sound
>> the top end has an edge
>> wonder if the levels were a hair hot, that high end transicient
>> flute.....
>>
>> back the mics off, that might help that high flute tone smooth out
>> more before it hits the mic.
>> and maybe roll the aiming point of the mic like you were
> overshooting.
>>
>> dale
>
>
> I would also suggest backing off just a bit, but the risk is that you
> might get too much room sound.

Hey Karl, I think I could back off a little bit & not get hurt with too much
ambience... although the player really likes it the way it is right now,
she's not opposed to trying something different. She's pretty much a purist
& just wants a nice, clean flute sound with a tiny touch of room.

>Flute sounds best when all the
> components blend well, which happens at a distance, and with the help
> of good reverb.

She wants no reverb, not even from a convolution 'verb. As I said she's
completely stoked with the degree of ambience we've got right now (I even
showed her a couple examples of what we could do using SIR & a couple of
convolution patches, and she didn't really go for it).

> For an orchestral or school audition, this probably
> won't matter much since most tapes aren't great and the people
> listening will be listening for technique, breath control, phrasing,
> etc. much more than sound. And for that, your recording is fine. I'd
> watch out that it not be drenched in reverb or sound artificial because
> it could work against the flautist in an audition setting.

Yep, I think you've got it nailed - that's what she's saying the judges want
to hear... as pure of a sound as possible. She also mentioned that there
can't be any edits/punches/etc. (and they actually have to sign an affidavit
stating that they understand they will be disqualified if any editing is
discovered), so she's going to have to nail it & get at least one solid take
of each piece.

Neil Henderson

 

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<mike.mermagen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109381780.465525.108810@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Neil,
> I don't know what kind of competition this recording will be up
> against, but I feel there are several issues that may keep your flutist
> from passing the tape round.
>
> The first thing I notice is that the recording acoustic is very dead,
> so it badly needs some reverb or better yet, a live acoustic. The flute
> doesn't have any sustain like a piano or even a string instrument, so
> when the sound stops... it really stops. This also accentuates the fact
> that your flutist does not sustain tone very well. There is a quick
> diminuendo on every note ending in thin wispy vibrato noises. Close
> miking captures all of that. A sense of space would also help the
> dynamics she is attempting. I don't hear much dynamics on your tape,
> but I do hear when she attempts to play really soft it is resulting in
> a severe lack of tone, yet still it is captured with prescence due to
> the close miking. Also, because of the lack of reverberance and
> sustained tone, the tempo, which may not be too slow, seems too slow,
> because there are so many 'holes' in the phrase.
>
> My apologies if this is more than you cared to hear.

Hey Mike, no that's fine... as far as the playing goes, as I think I
mentioned, this was just a sample clip from a mic audition, and it was done
at the end of a day wherein she had been giving classes & lessons all day;
so, at the top of her game she was not (she's a pretty good player, with a
doctorate in music & a seat in the area symphony orchestra - so I'm not
worried about her execution when we actually record the real stuff... and
besides, there's nothing I can do about that other than give her an
environment that gives her the confidence she needs to play well). Regarding
your sonically-related comments, it sounds like you're amongst the "back it
off to get some more ambience" crowd, as well; so I will definitely give
that a shot.

Thanks for all your comments & input so far!


Neil Henderson

 

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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:24:31 -0500, Buster Mudd wrote
(in article <1109348671.016993.125380@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>):

> kevindoylemusic@rogers.com wrote:
>>
>> Most common horn sections these days are three or four pieces
> starting
>> with alto sax, tenor sax, trumpet and the optional trombone. Horns
> are
>> very transient in nature, especially trumpets. All will require good
>> condenser microphones placed approximately 1-2 feet away from the
>> instrument.
>
>
> Gosh, what horribly pedantic textbook did you copy that drivel out of?
> Have you ever heard a trumpet recorded through a condenser mic? That'd
> probably be my *last* choice!
>

OTOH, the guy blowing into a U 87 on the today show a few times the last
couple of months sounded great!

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

 

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In article <PuTTd.19605$D34.2441@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM writes:

> Hey Karl, I think I could back off a little bit & not get hurt with too much
> ambience...

I haven't listened, but the gist of the comments is that it needs more
ambience. And bad ambience is sometimes better than no ambience. Not
everyone plays the flute in a fine concert hall.

> She wants no reverb, not even from a convolution 'verb. As I said she's
> completely stoked with the degree of ambience we've got right now

Well, she's the producer and you have to listen to her. But if the dry
sound emphasises deficiencies in her playing as one poster thought, it
may keep her out of school. Or maybe it will show that she needs some
help in areas where training would do some good.

I remember when I used to record a lot of folk music that "reverb" (as
well as "compression") was a four letter word. But as we get older, we
like it more, and more of it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

 

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> haven't listened, but the gist of the comments is that it needs more
>ambience.

no, not more ambience, it needs more space to allow the sound of the
flute to gel, a small amount , just enough for all the sound waves to
fully join together and become a cohesive sound not all the parts of
the sound.

dale

 

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Mike Rivers wrote:

> neil.henderson writes:

> > Hey Karl, I think I could back off a little bit & not get hurt with too much
> > ambience...

> I haven't listened, but the gist of the comments is that it needs more
> ambience. And bad ambience is sometimes better than no ambience. Not
> everyone plays the flute in a fine concert hall.

> > She wants no reverb, not even from a convolution 'verb. As I said she's
> > completely stoked with the degree of ambience we've got right now

> Well, she's the producer and you have to listen to her. But if the dry
> sound emphasises deficiencies in her playing as one poster thought, it
> may keep her out of school. Or maybe it will show that she needs some
> help in areas where training would do some good.

I didn't see that Neil had taken a shot at coincidnet cardioids, and I
think that's one of the things I'd try for this, unless the ceiling is
high enough to put a mic four to six feet above the player, in which
case I might even track this in mono.

If tracking it X/Y I'd pull back and mess with the angle between the
mics to balance too much presence against too much room. I can often
find a happy medium somewhere.

--
ha

 

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In article <1109450102.203343.178820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> dallen@frognet.net writes:

> > haven't listened, but the gist of the comments is that it needs more
> >ambience.
>
> no, not more ambience, it needs more space to allow the sound of the
> flute to gel, a small amount , just enough for all the sound waves to
> fully join together and become a cohesive sound not all the parts of
> the sound.

That's part of what I call "ambience" - it's not added sound or
extraneous noise, it's sound developed in an acoustical environment.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

 

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sorry I think of ambience as in the sound of the room

oxford dictionary

ambience

Environment, surroundings; atmosphere.

Audio. The acoustic quality of a particular environment, as reproduced
in a recording; spec. a sense of some specific or individual
atmosphere, esp. an impression of live performance, created or enhanced
by recording techniques (such as added reverberation), or by the
presence of background noise.

dale