Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.opinion (
More info?)
On Sat, 3 Sep 2005 07:50:13 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
<patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:46:49 -0500, dave weil <dweil2@bellsouth.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 18:14:36 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
>><patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:51:23 -0500, dave weil <dweil2@bellsouth.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 20:48:56 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
>>>><patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:16:22 -0500, dave weil <dweil2@bellsouth.net>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:28:14 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
>>>>>><patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:18:57 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
>>>>>>><YustabeSlim@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"nyob123@peoplepc.com" <NYOB123@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:3FxRe.4944$_84.2418@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When people flat out lie about the perfomance improvements that a peice of
>>>>>>>>> equipment, it's my feeling that such information shoud be challenged. If
>>>>>>>>> manufacturers want to chare high prices for gear they ought to expect
>>>>>>>>> challenges. Aside from liking the way one peice of gear looks as opposed
>>>>>>>>> to another, why would anyone want tos spend more monye than needed to
>>>>>>>>> achieve the same performance. Do you think they'd sell more VW's of they
>>>>>>>>> performed exactly the way Porsche does? Do you tink if someone made a car
>>>>>>>>> that performed exactly the way a Porsce does that they'd likely sell
>>>>>>>>> plenty?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>They do - the VW Touareg and Porsche Cayenne are the *same* car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Until you look at the motors. That has more than a little to do with
>>>>>>"performance".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sorry you know so little about cars.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sorry you're unaware that the base models use the 3.2 V-6 VW petrol
>>>>>engine,
>>>>
>>>>Except that the Porsche gets 25 more HP out of the same motor. Sorry
>>>>you don't know more about what you're talking about.
>>>
>>>Bullshit. The Porsche is rated at 247 HP (same as the rating for that
>>>engine in all other VW and Audi cars in which it's used), while it's
>>>rated at 240 in the Touareg, for no reason I can find. There is *no*
>>>special Porsche tuning at work here, just some mysterious derating in
>>>the Touareg (mebbe Porsche's marketing guys insisted?). Five'll get
>>>you ten they'll be identical on a rolling road........
>>
>>Why can't you just admit that you are wrong?
>>
>>Oh it's you, that's why...
>>
>>"So why did Porsche develop a V6 engine? Well, in designing and
>>constructing the unit-body chassis of the Cayenne, Porsche worked with
>>parent company VW, who was co-developing the Touareg SUV. Although the
>>3.2-liter V6 is snatched from the Touareg, Porsche engineers assure
>>that extensive modification has been done to guarantee Porsche
>>performance. For example, the new intake system uses continuously
>>variable valve timing and two overhead camshafts. The exhaust has also
>>been tweaked to bellow the familiar Porsche note. For towing, the
>>cooling system was also enhanced to withstand pulling in high ambient
>>temperatures.
>>
>>
>>V6 Horsepower
>>Porsche reports horsepower for its V6 version at 247 and torque at 228
>>lb.-ft. A Touareg yields only 220 hp. but creates 225 lb.-ft. of
>>torque. However, all that torque arrives later in the power band in
>>the VW (3,200 rpm as opposed to 2,500 rpm in the Porsche), so Porsche
>>can tout slightly better utility capabilities".
>>
>>Looks like VW has added another 20 HP though for 2005. Still less than
>>the Porsche.
>
>That engine - in current 3.2 size - has *always* produced 247 HP in
>VWs and Audis.
http
/www.internetautoguide.com/car-specifications/09-int/2004/volkswagen/touareg/
2004 Volkswagen Touareg Performance & Efficiency Standard Features
- 3,189 cc 3.2 liters 6 V front engine with 84 mm bore, 95.9 mm
stroke, 11 compression ratio, double overhead cam, variable valve
timing/camshaft and four valves per cylinder
- Premium unleaded fuel
- Multi-point injection fuel system
- Main 100 liter premium unleaded fuel tank
- Power: EEC and 164 kW , 220 HP @ 5,400 rpm; 225 ft lb , 310 Nm @
3,200 rpm
http/www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=78
ENGINES/TRANSMISSIONS
3.2 V6 petrol (3,189cc): 162kW (220PS) at 5,800 rpm / 305Nm (225 lb
ft) torque at 3,200 rpm.
So much for your knowledge of "history".
>Don't believe everything the Porsche boys try to tell
>you, Vile, they simply don't have the resources to develop serious new
>engines (or indeed an SUV).
I guess you don't know how a company can increase horsepower by even
simple tweaks to an intake/exhaust system. Heck, a more efficient
exhaust from manifold to tailpipe ALONE can add 5 HP. I guess you
don't think that Porsche has the resources to maximize the diesign of
an existing motor. You'd be wrong, of course, but you can reach for
any desperate measure that you'd like. But it looks like VAG DID want
to narrow the over 20 HP gap by doing some tweaking of their own.
And who cares that Audi (another "upscale marque") ALSO maintains a
respectable difference in specs between VW and itself. Bringing in
Audi just shows your desperation to avoid saying the simple words,
"Hey, I'm wrong bout the specs". In fact, it supports my OWN
contention, because even VAG ITSELF keeps a spec advantage to their
"upscale" brand.
>>>>> they share the 'stump-pulling' VW 5-litre V-10 turbo-diesel,
>>>>
>>>>Ooops, nope. The Cayenne doesn't offer the diesel.
>>>
>>>Apologies - that's for next year.
>>
>>Still can't say the simple words, "I'm wrong". But thanks for the
>>acknowlegement. I fully admit that I was wrong about some things as
>>well. You should try the straightforward approach. Speaking of next
>>year though, it's likely that Porsche will maintain a technical
>>superiority, as they've not settled for the same specs on anything
>>they've used from VW.
>
>Actually of course, they have, since the 3.2 V6 is not modified at
>all, despite being fitted with a 'boy racer' noisy exhaust system for
>the Cayenne.
Nope. You're just making stuff up at this point. You have NOTHING to
support your contention, except perhaps the empty scotch bottles that
lie at your feet.
>BTW, It's *exactly* the same engine that's fitted to my
>A3, so I do know something about its history.
Well, you don't apparently know as much about its history as you
think, as I have already shown. But who cares what's on your little
Audi, because we weren't discussing the A3 vs anything.
>>>> And since it's not a
>>>>Pinkerton-approved "cutting-edge motor", who cares, right?
>>>
>>>Not 'cutting edge'? The engine that powers the latest Bentleys? the
>>>world's only W-12? Are you *crazy*?! Ah, sorry, silly question.......
>>
>>According to you, it has to be 100 HP per liter, remember?
>
>Ah, that's just for a *Pinkerton approved* cutting edge award, being
>the world's only W-12 is enough for basic 'cutting edge' status!
Ummm, I DID say "Pinkerton-approved cutting edge", DIDN'T I? I happen
to think that this arbitrary design feature of yours is bogus in the
first place. Thank you for supporting my contention that it isn't 100
HP per liter that makes an engine TRULY cutting edge.
>> Funny how
>>the words come back to haunt you. This is roughly the same percentage
>>as Ford's engine that I mentioned as being cutting edge, although you
>>correctly pointed out (or *I* found out later) that it was only 170 HP
>>per 2 liter.
Oooops, the Dumblelord is suddenly speechless.
>>>>>Shame that you know so little about cars.
>>>>
>>>>So you say. However, you've gotten just about everything wrong in this
>>>>post.
>>>
>>>Nope, you have as ever lost all touch with reality. The Porsche
>>>Cayenne and VW Touareg are the *same* car, and the base models share
>>>the *same* VW engine. Only *you* are dumb enough to think otherwise.
>>
>>Now you are changing your story.
>>
>>"PS: The standard Cayenne's narrow-angle 3.2-liter V6 engine was
>>developed by Volkswagen. Porsche did its own finish work for its
>>version of the V6, which features variable timing for both the intake
>>and exhaust valves for an impressive combination of smooth idling,
>>good low-end torque and free-revving high-end horsepower". 6 more
>>horsepower actually.
>>
>>They do NOT offer the exact same performance, regardless of how you
>>spin it.
>
>Sure they do, and BTW, it wasn't Porsche who did that work, it was VW,
>to create the Mk IV Golf R32. I know this, because the same engine was
>retained for my Mk V based Audi A3 3.2 DSG, which I'm about to go and
>wash for the weekend.
Porsche still have 3 more RATED HP (and now have trumped THAT with
another 50 HP). VW did some catchup work. Good for them, but Porsche
has raised the bar again. Now, if you can provide something other than
drunken mutterings about secret conspiracies, feel free to provide
them. I'm not holding my breath though.
>Oh yes, and another thing. My A3 doesn't have the ground clearance of
>the Cayenne, but otherwise it's got the same mud-plugging capacity -
>and it's in every way *faster* than the V-8 Cayenne S...........
Or the V-8 Touareg for that matter, right? Who cares if your little
pocket rocket is faster than an SUV? You really have some silly pride
working for you. Shame you can't say the same thing about the Turbo
though...that would make your manhood swell with a wormlike pride.
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