A Piano Question

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Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't really
answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese versions.
Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
more'.

Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to be
pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the 7'6"
C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).

If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

Thanks,
--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com
 
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Dave Martin <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
>two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
>versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't really
>answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese versions.
>Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
>more'.

Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few classical
works.

On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
implement the same sort of effect.

The majority of pianos out there seem to skip the middle pedal completely
and just have two pedals. I have played a few pianos that had three pedals
but the middle pedal was just for show and didn't actually connect up to
anything.

>Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
>Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to be
>pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
>other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the 7'6"
>C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).

In Hawaii, they were great sounding pianos. Here on the east coast, they
don't seem to sound as good. I don't know if that is a humidity thing or
just the way people have them set up. But I have heard some of them sound
great, and I have also been very impressed at the ability of a good piano
tech to get a huge variety of sounds out of any good piano. I am convinced
that the piano setup is as important as the quality of the original piano.

>If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
>wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

Find the best piano tech in town and ask him what he knows of for sale
right now. He'll know what particular instruments are good and what
aren't.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 

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Scott Dorsey wrote:


> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held
> down when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
> of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few
> classical works.
>
> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
> not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
> implement the same sort of effect.

Could this be a grand vs upright sort of difference? I've had my head
inside more uprights than grands, & all I've seen use the middle pedal as a
bass damper (why don't they call it an un-damper?). It's actually been a
few years since I had my head inside ANY acoustic piano, so my memory's
kind of foggy. I seem to recall the point as being about an octave below
middle C.
 
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In article <chsrsj$rnc$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com says...
> I have played a few pianos that had three pedals
> but the middle pedal was just for show and didn't actually connect up to
> anything.

I (well, my parents) had an old upright like that when I was little..
the piano teacher told me that pedal was for counting the beats.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
 
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Damn, you're good Scott! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:chsrsj$rnc$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Dave Martin <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
> >two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
> >versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't
really
> >answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese
versions.
> >Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's
'one
> >more'.
>
> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held
down
> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
> of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few
classical
> works.
>
> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
> not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
> implement the same sort of effect.
>
> The majority of pianos out there seem to skip the middle pedal completely
> and just have two pedals. I have played a few pianos that had three
pedals
> but the middle pedal was just for show and didn't actually connect up to
> anything.
>
> >Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
> >Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to
be
> >pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
> >other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the
7'6"
> >C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).
>
> In Hawaii, they were great sounding pianos. Here on the east coast, they
> don't seem to sound as good. I don't know if that is a humidity thing or
> just the way people have them set up. But I have heard some of them sound
> great, and I have also been very impressed at the ability of a good piano
> tech to get a huge variety of sounds out of any good piano. I am
convinced
> that the piano setup is as important as the quality of the original piano.
>
> >If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
> >wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet
long?"
>
> Find the best piano tech in town and ask him what he knows of for sale
> right now. He'll know what particular instruments are good and what
> aren't.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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In article <Vfm0d.467$az6.22@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> dmainc@earthlink.net writes:

> If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
> wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

A 7 foot deal is something to contend with.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
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>Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
>more'.>>

The middle pedal is "sostenuto" a rarely understood & rarely used effect
whereby only those notes being held down when the pedal is engaged are
sustained. Most players (& composers for that matter) don't really know how to
make much use of this pedal.
>
>Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
>Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? >>

My understanding is that, unlike the C series, the CS pianos are handmade.

I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to
>be
>pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
>other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the 7'6"
>C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).
>
>If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
>wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?">>

Ten or more years ago I wheedled a Yamaha dealer down to about $18,000 for a
very specific C7. That's probably not an available deal anymore.

Scott Fraser
 
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In article <20040910145237.10414.00002283@mb-m23.aol.com>,
scotfraser@aol.com (ScotFraser) wrote:

[snip]

>
> Ten or more years ago I wheedled a Yamaha dealer down to about $18,000 for a
> very specific C7. That's probably not an available deal anymore.
>
> Scott Fraser


For the last several years, Yamaha has had a program in which they loan C7s and
DC7s to universities and then sell them as used at the end of the year.
Stanford participated in the program as did some other schools. I'm not sure if
the program is still going, but you might find radio and newspaper ads
announcing such sales if there is still such a program in your area.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x
 
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"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message ...
> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held
down
> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
> of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few
classical
> works.

This can be a really cool effect as some notes sustain and others don't. It
also means that you can hold down a chord in one range and as you play
around those notes, the harmonics make those strings vibrate even if you
don't play them.

> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
> not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
> implement the same sort of effect.

You only see that on upright pianos. Grands usually do it the "correct" way
and uprights do it in the lower register. Has to do with the differences in
mechanical action between the two kinds of instruments.

--Ben

--
Benjamin Maas
Fifth Circle Audio
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.fifthcircle.com

Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies
 
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"Dave Martin" <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Vfm0d.467$az6.22@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
> two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
> versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't
really
> answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese
versions.
> Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
more'.

My C7 is a grey market from Japan, and it has 2 pedals.

> If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
> wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

Buy a grey market piano from Japan.

Try Bob Barnes at the Piano Exchange in St. Petersburg, FL
(727) 463-7135

I've bought 2 C-7's from him with great results, for less than half the
going rate.
Both from 1965. sound fantastic (Patrick Moraz used mine in Orlando
for some recording when I lived there).
 
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Jay Kadis <jay@ccrma.stanford.edu> wrote
> For the last several years, Yamaha has had a program in which they loan C7s and
> DC7s to universities and then sell them as used at the end of the year.
> Stanford participated in the program as did some other schools. I'm not sure if
> the program is still going, but you might find radio and newspaper ads
> announcing such sales if there is still such a program in your area.
>
> -Jay

Um. I went to one of these sales several years ago at a conservatory,
and the smell of "scam" was thick. They were bringing in truckloads of
upright pianos of all sorts and setting them up in the school
represented as these "played only by conservatory students" deals. The
halls were lined with cheap digital pianos for the folks without much
cash. High pressure sales tactics. The whole thing just stank.
 
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
> when the pedal is pressed

> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C).

On my piano, the highest note affected by the middle pedal is the D
below middle C. If memory serves, this is (perhaps not coincidentally),
also the lowest note that uses two strings instead of just one[1].

One other thing you'll notice from looking at my piano, at least,
is that two of the pedals are nice shiny brass and the other one is
really tarnished. But they're all made out of the same material,
so what does that tell you?

- Logan

[1] And also, again not coincidentally, also the note that goes out
of tune the fastest...
 
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agent86 wrote:
> inside more uprights than grands, & all I've seen use the middle pedal as a
> bass damper (why don't they call it an un-damper?). It's actually been a

Well, the things it moves are called dampers, right? So maybe it's
named by what it actuates rather than the effect it achieves.

- Logan
 
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Find the best piano tech in town and ask him what he knows of for sale
> right now. He'll know what particular instruments are good and what
> aren't.

What Scott said; I'm generally amazed by what my piano man has seen in
his travels between visits here. There are lots of excellent pianos out
there and a good tech knows which one's to consider.

I wanted to offload the chickering with the ampico A mechanism because
the damned roll box is right in the way of my skinny knees. But the best
players that come here rave about it and we decided to keep it. When I
told the tech that he smiled and said, "It's a great piano, Hank".

Duh. Maybe I'll have my legs shortened.

--
ha
 
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal.

I played a piano one time -- forget the manufacturer -- for which the
middle pedal raised a cloth curtain between the hammers and the strings.
Made for an interesting soft tone. Haven't seen that since.

--
Jonathan Roberts * guitar, keyboards, vocals * North River Preservation
----------------------------------------------
To reach me reverse: moc(dot)xobop(at)ggestran
 
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Roger W. Norman <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote:
>Damn, you're good Scott! <g>

No, but my piano teacher was really, really good. I was more interested in
what was inside the piano than how to play it, though.

She had a Bechstein upright with a real sostenuto pedal and it fascinated
me because I couldn't figure out what it was for. In the meantime I never
got good enough to play Fuer Elise all the way through. I still like pianos,
though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

> On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed).

On my piano's all the notes I hold down sustain naturally....so why would I want a
pedal to do that?


"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"
 
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Nathan West <natewest@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> On _most_ pianos with one, the
>> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
>> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
>> sustains all the notes while it's pressed).
>
>On my piano's all the notes I hold down sustain naturally....so why would I want a
>pedal to do that?

So you don't have to hold them all down so long. Otherwise you'd need
something like thirty fingers to play Satie's Gymnopedie because you'd
be holding everything down all the time. With this fancy technology,
you only need thirty fingers for the Rachmaninoff second.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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"ScotFraser" <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040910145237.10414.00002283@mb-m23.aol.com...
> >Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that
there's 'one
> >more'.>>
>
> The middle pedal is "sostenuto" a rarely understood & rarely used
effect
> whereby only those notes being held down when the pedal is engaged
are
> sustained. Most players (& composers for that matter) don't really
know how to
> make much use of this pedal.

It's a great way to get a drone effect. Play a low octave, and hold
down the sostenuto pedal. You can now play normally and occasionally
repeat the drone octave for a continuous sound.

Norm Strong
 
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Nathan West wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:

> > On _most_ pianos with one, the middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it
> > sustains only the notes that are held down when the pedal is pressed
> > (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which sustains all the notes while
> > it's pressed).

> On my piano's all the notes I hold down sustain naturally....so why would
> I want a pedal to do that?

So that those notes played will sustain when you move your fingers to
different keys, yet _all_ the strings won't be singing.

--
ha
 
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