Carmack Addresses "Creativity" Issue of FPS Market

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cloakster

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He's basically saying 'If their willing to give us the money then why not make the same game over again'. This is exactly what is wrong with the FPS market right now, why is he happy that developers are thinking that way?
 

AnUnusedUsername

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More generic FPS is fine with me. What isn't fine with me is more FPS games set in the present. There's no variation in that, and no uniqueness to anything. Either it's realistic, and every weapon is effectively the same, or it isn't, and your applying century old behavior to modern weapons. Realism is also more or less impossible, as weapons are just too accurate and vehicles cover far too much ground far too quickly to use effectively in a small scale game. You can do a lot more by setting things in the past or the future than the present, and that's part of why games set in the present are always so stale.
 

millerm84

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[citation][nom]AnUnusedUsername[/nom]More generic FPS is fine with me. What isn't fine with me is more FPS games set in the present. There's no variation in that, and no uniqueness to anything. Either it's realistic, and every weapon is effectively the same, or it isn't, and your applying century old behavior to modern weapons. Realism is also more or less impossible, as weapons are just too accurate and vehicles cover far too much ground far too quickly to use effectively in a small scale game. You can do a lot more by setting things in the past or the future than the present, and that's part of why games set in the present are always so stale.[/citation]


I think going into the past can kind of do the same thing, the story is already there and thus people are tied to it. Battlefield 1942 is still one of my favorite games and I think a "Battlefield 1776" type title would do well especially if a co-op campaign mode existed.
 

greenrider02

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I agree with AnUnusedUsername and millerm84, in that most FPS's are enjoyable at the very least, but the creativity I want to see doesn't need to come from gameplay features so much as a big change in the environment, time period, place. Give us a real, all out, save-the-world type storyline to work ourselves into and you've at least given me the desire to play to the finish.

But, one of the things I loved about the entire Halo series was the scope and the environment... Set in a strangely familiar landscape (when not in space), with familiar weapons appropriate to it all, and to top it off the story was well driven, aided by the fact that the main character barely spoke, and only really in cutscenes!

I want to fight an all out Civil War battle, give me a taste of charging no-man's land and the trench warfare of WWI, a fully functional bayonette charge, close combat, cavalry flanking, etc. I want a real impact on the battle raging around me... and I want my character to die easily, so that the hardest part of any battle is surviving.

Anybody with me? These ideas can be applied to any original fictional concept too, and I hope developers take advantage of the processing power coming to PCs and consoles to add range and scope to our FPS gameplay, not just graphics and realism.
 

benk87

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Anyone ever play shadowrun? I always thought that was a step in the right direction. It's a shame that the studio went under that created the game. Sure there were some problems with the game (minor), but I always thought the game was very fun. Especially with all the cool powers you could get. This is what I want in a shooter. Fun Stuff.
 

fyasko

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multiplayer is flawed with console shooters. public custom games should be the norm instead of matchmaking. i'm tired of playingcrappy maps over and over. let me choose which maps i want to play in what order and what game mode i want. think SOCOM2's community. matchmaking is ruining my experience.
 

HavoCnMe

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Carmack is just jealous of the Battlefield Series. iD nor Activision aka Antivision can compete.

Proud Battlefield member since Battlefield Vietnam 2004.
 

alidan

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[citation][nom]amk-aka-phantom[/nom]What, THIS guy AGAIN? I'm tired of his "comments" on how tablets and smartphones will take over desktop and laptops in a year... but now he SUDDENLY talks sense! FPS hit the wall a long time ago... what else can you do with an FPS rather then improve graphics? The game genre involves shooting, and not much more, and it's fine! Otherwise, there're things like Just Cause 2 and TimeShift, which offer an FPS core with additional abilities that drastically change the way an FPS works (no, Crysis nanosuit can NOT be considered such an ability!). Concerning 3rd person shooter vs. FPS... I don't agree do his "immersion" ideas. I'm feeling much more immersed while playing Mass Effect 2 or JC2 rather than Call of Duty =P[/citation]

thats more due to story than immersed in its gameplay, if you took the story out and made it go here and do this, would it be as immersive?

also, this guy created the fps genre, basicly. he knows his s*** when he talks about it.
[citation][nom]el33t[/nom]Well, I personally feel that people nowadays are way too demanding regarding FPS games especially. I absolutely love the feel of CoD games and I hate it when people complain about how it lacks innovation etc. It has everything a war-based FPS should ought to deliver.[/citation]

that game became a formula. do this, put this in it, than mash it up in a blender, and ad some spice post launch to fix any of the bad tastes people have when sharing it with others, and no free refills, and refills cost almost as much as the original purchase.

for a counter example, look at uncharted.
the first game was single play only and damn good
the second game improved the single player mechanics, and it also added multipleyer on par with gears of wat (never played online, but thats what i hear)
and the third game is months away from launch and the multiplayer is already polished to the point you though the game was done.

call of duty on the other hand, sense at least mw1 has all felt the same, regardless of where you go and that 3 games later. [citation][nom]fenix1186[/nom]"But we're creating value for people - that’s our job!"He meant: "But we're creating profit for us - that’s our job!"Honestly the FPS genre hasn't seen too much new stuff. With appalling games like COD, it's just sad. I mean call of duty was awesome as MW1. Then everything that has come after should have only been an expansion because there is NOTHING different aside from a bit more story and some random small items. COD has instead become the Madden of FPS's. Same shit different year. People just love buying the same thing every year with the tiniest changes from the last iteration: COD, Madden, anything Apple, etc[/citation]

from what im told, madden is one of the most complex games that you can get. its based on a real world sport with rules that dont change. but almost every year madden comes out with something new that completely changes the game for its hard core fans.

i dont play madden, but i know of a few reviewers of sports games who say about what i wrote. from the out side looking in, its the same game, but on the inside, it depends on how into it you are if its worth the 60$ every year.

cod doesnt even do that sense mw1
[citation][nom]Friis[/nom]I like how Battlefield have been moving, seen Battlefield 2 move to Battlefield bad company 2 where you can destroy things, and soon Battlefield 3, can't wait to see that.but moving to see Call of Duty, i joined Call of duty at number 4, but as world at war and black ups came out. only different i see is that there are less good players left in call of duty 4, but there is no real changes, looks like money making "upgrades". Many things could me like a mod to call of duty 4 instead of a whole new game, ok the remote car might be hard to make on a mod. what else is there?I really loved call of duty 4, but its been some time since I last was playing that, last I got so borred because there was barely any multiplayer challenge, running around with pistol because it became so easy, all the good players moved to the next call of duty, I find it a waste of my money buying those later call of duty.[/citation]

apparently you never modded before. if there is a rocket launcher where you see through it the mod is simple, i may not be pretty, but it will do.

[citation][nom]utengineer[/nom]I play the $60 AAA PC titles because there is a large online community. This allows me countless hours of multi-player action with servers that are full. This is were I get value out of the product. Single player campaigns do not interest me because playing against AI is trite and just not challenging after you complete the game.[/citation]

i would rather play against bots most of the time, if only because when i die, its not because of a lag spike, or lag at all, and i cant blame it on anything but i suck.

[citation][nom]mauller07[/nom]I believe the main problem with games now days is the lack of depth to the gameplay and story as well as the overall length of the story.The main turnoff for me in FPS games is the generic death match rubbish, it is why i enjoy the battlefield series more with its conquest mode, cnc renegade was also another brilliant example of an FPS game with a difference.but then im currently addicted to minecraft lol.[/citation]

i love death match, in a serious sam like game, its the best mode to play.

[citation][nom]n3ard3ath[/nom]Carmack, androids like you have no creativity whatsoever. Code code code Carmack, and shut up, that's the only thing you're good at. Your opinion means shit nerd. Romero, now that's a personality. He failed, but at least he tried. Seriously, what have you done in the past 10 years? Doom 3? Was not bad, but disappointed a shitload of people. Quake 4? BARELY good. Same with Wolfenstein 2009. Enemy Territory, BLEND. Seriously, with do people listen to this clown? Beuase he's a "great" coder? What game used your "oh so great" tech? Prey and Brink. Wow! So what kind of authority does that guy have? No creativity, no real use of his tech "skills", and now there he is talking his ALMIGHTY opinion about creativity. Please Carmack, shut up.[/citation]

the id team never had game designers i believe. they were all programmers and they made the fps genre back when there was nothing else i believe. of coarse they aren't great now because they aren't level designers.

also, as for games that use their engines, blame that on unreal engines dominance, not on crappy games use their engine.
[citation][nom]millerm84[/nom]I think going into the past can kind of do the same thing, the story is already there and thus people are tied to it. Battlefield 1942 is still one of my favorite games and I think a "Battlefield 1776" type title would do well especially if a co-op campaign mode existed.[/citation]

think bioshock when he says past.

[citation][nom]benk87[/nom]Anyone ever play shadowrun? I always thought that was a step in the right direction. It's a shame that the studio went under that created the game. Sure there were some problems with the game (minor), but I always thought the game was very fun. Especially with all the cool powers you could get. This is what I want in a shooter. Fun Stuff.[/citation]

yea, they took an rpg, and made it into a multiplayer only game... that was a step into the wrongest direction they could have gone, because the built in fan base hated it for that reason, and it want good enough to compete with its competition at the time.

[citation][nom]fyasko[/nom]multiplayer is flawed with console shooters. public custom games should be the norm instead of matchmaking. i'm tired of playingcrappy maps over and over. let me choose which maps i want to play in what order and what game mode i want. think SOCOM2's community. matchmaking is ruining my experience.[/citation]

you can thank xbox live for making match makeing the norm.

[citation][nom]Khimera2000[/nom]great... to bad all that innovation goes to dumbing down PC controls, to make it easier to port to consoles.[/citation]

you know, when people say dumbed down, tell me what you mean. you want to use the whole keyboard when you really don't need to? i think thats stupid, but to each their own. so long as a pc can use a mouse and wsad keys im fine with it.
 

NuclearShadow

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I believe the FPS genre still has room to evolve more than just graphics.
However we live in a world where companies like to be safe so most avoid
actually trying to be different and dare to innovate due to risk of failure so they follow
formulas they know already work. I wouldn't blame the developer teams for this, I think
every single game developer wants to make the next greatest game ever unlike any other.
Publishers however have no interest in investing in such a risk.

Carmack's comments are quite disturbing however. Does he really expect people to simply buy basically the same games over and over? It may be popular now but it won't last forever people will grow bored of it and the games will have to evolve. Lets take a game like Doom which Carmack actually had a huge part in. The game was loved at the time and was quite popular, but if a game just like Doom was released today (its original form not like Doom 3)
it would be a failure. Gaming has evolved past this point and it will continue to evolve.
The innovators will take a giant lead at this point and the rest will likely suffer from poor sales and losses. It wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last.

Does anyone else however get the feeling that he is in denial about RAGE?
From the way he talks in this article it sounds like hes trying to defend blandness
and with RAGE just around the corner that cannot be a good thing.

 

badaxe2

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So just because something is 60fps it's impressive? How about the fact that CoD doesn't even run @ 720p on consoles? The only reason CoD is able to get anywhere close to 60fps is because it isn't really doing anything technically (or artistically) impressive next to other shooters like Crysis 2, Killzone 2/3, Battlefield 2/3, hell even Doom 3.
 

walter87

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[citation][nom]n3ard3ath[/nom]And F.Y.I. everyone. id Software's CEO Todd Hollenshead was the first to say PC gaming was dead cause of piracy back in 2004/2005 on VIDEO. Actually, all they really care about IS profit. Actually, he was even kind of PUSHING that idea so that could turn into their favor, by having more console sales.[/citation]

I sure hope lots of people buy RAGE used. That will show them how minuscule Piracy is on the PC, when you lose Millions of full priced retail sales to used games.
 

alidan

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[citation][nom]badaxe2[/nom]So just because something is 60fps it's impressive? How about the fact that CoD doesn't even run @ 720p on consoles? The only reason CoD is able to get anywhere close to 60fps is because it isn't really doing anything technically (or artistically) impressive next to other shooters like Crysis 2, Killzone 2/3, Battlefield 2/3, hell even Doom 3.[/citation]

do you get how important 60fps is? killzone 2/3 crysis 2 dont need to look as good as they do to be good games, and doom 3 is so old its irrelevant to a graphics conversation.

now battlefield bc2, that is a step where the graphics are needed to some extent for the gameplay.

graphics mean NOTHING if the gameplay isnt good and i hate it when people dont get that.

sacrificing graphics for 60fps is something anyone would do with an fps and expectingly an online fps.
 

n3ard3ath

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@alidan

Kudos for reading and answering so many posts man, lol. While I don't particularly like the U3 engine, especially for it's lack of full AA support for a long time, there MUST be a reason why it dominated. If I'm not mistaking, the engine allowed more polygons, so that's a plus. I think it was less stable though (than Tech 4). But surely there's another reason why it was licensed more. Me think it's the actual tools given to developers working with this engine that were more convivial. Also, Tech 4 had plastic look to it. Which isn't THAT bad in Brink, but pretty obvious in other games. Anyway, all I was saying is that guy seems to think he is some kind of genius or something, when in fact he is just one good coder among others. It's just that he can do more on it's own than some. Like a damn robot. But robot doesn't mean fun, just means tech. Now that tech is so advanced and so widespread, what can this guy really bring, other than boring opinions, that are often far from the truth, or just plain stupid? I must say though, technically, Rage looks hot. And it also looks cool gameplay-wise. When it'll finally be out, maybe then will he be able to remake his name, for now, what he is saying means shit. I mean, if what he actually said was interesting, that would be another story, but it's NOT, so why is he even speaking?

@walter87

Well, publisher and developers are actually starting to realize that's the real problem. And while I don't like it, Steam really helped boost and revive PC game sales, while eliminating this problem. personally, I hate paying full price for digital downloads. I like to actually hold a product. Even if it's not the box I play with, I like to have it when I put money out of my pockets.
 

Zingam

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Hahaha... Carmack's games are the best in creativity - Doom, Quake, Doom 2, Quake 2, Doom 3, Quake 3... very creative, very intelligent games, great stories, great looking levels...

I bet Rage will be just another Doom upgrade.

Well, Wolf3D was actually pretty creative but none of all other games by ID that followed. Everything after Wolf3D was simply a graphics update to the original Wolf3D game.

[citation][nom]mauller07[/nom]I believe the main problem with games now days is the lack of depth to the gameplay and story as well as the overall length of the story.The main turnoff for me in FPS games is the generic death match rubbish, it is why i enjoy the battlefield series more with its conquest mode, cnc renegade was also another brilliant example of an FPS game with a difference.but then im currently addicted to minecraft lol.[/citation]

Dude, the games of the past had little to no story at all. What was the story of Doom??? Do you remember? With most games in previous times you had to read the manual to actually understand what was going on in the game.

I've always wanted to be a game developer but these games have killed my enthusiasm. I won't be able to bear yet another game full of orcs and zombies. A friend of mine worked on an original game. When the developer showed it to a publisher, the publisher changed all characters to just orcs, trolls, etc. - the original creatures and creativity were gone. Orcs forever!
 

Zingam

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[citation][nom]n3ard3ath[/nom]Carmack, androids like you have no creativity whatsoever. Code code code Carmack, and shut up, that's the only thing you're good at. Your opinion means shit nerd. Romero, now that's a personality. He failed, but at least he tried. Seriously, what have you done in the past 10 years? Doom 3? Was not bad, but disappointed a shitload of people. Quake 4? BARELY good. Same with Wolfenstein 2009. Enemy Territory, BLEND. Seriously, with do people listen to this clown? Beuase he's a "great" coder? What game used your "oh so great" tech? Prey and Brink. Wow! So what kind of authority does that guy have? No creativity, no real use of his tech "skills", and now there he is talking his ALMIGHTY opinion about creativity. Please Carmack, shut up.[/citation]

You're a funny guy! Carmack was the God once upon a time! For words like your's you'd be dead 10 years ago. I find it amusing that today there are so many people who think like me that Carmack has 0 imagination.

Probably you are younger generation. I guess the only reason why Doom was considered great game was because it was the only game of this kind back then. Now we have thousands of games that imitate Doom and some are actually good.

Long time ago there were really creative games: the original Diablo, Dune II, even Warcraft, Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior and my most favorite fps Blood!

There is not a single FPS game to this date that nears the greatness of Blood.
 

therandomuser

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You know what the FPS market needs and hasn't touched yet?

American/French Revolutions shooters!!! (Complete with 30 second reload muskets!!!)

There I gave you guys ideas to break up the stale genre, gimme mah money.
 

the associate

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I agree with others, I loved MW1, had impressive graphics for the time and great gameplay, I freakin LOVED Deathmatch, played for hours everyday. I got WoW when it came out and not to long afterwards, MW1 and WoW became camp-matches.
Although my scores were still mostly positive, how boring is it to run around a map looking to pop some brains when most of the time you can run for a full 3 minutes and not see a freaking soul because 95% of players were proned in some fooking grass or hiding in a corner in a stupid house. Worst part is when they managed to kill you, you come back, toss a nade and they were still there..so where did that flood of terrible players come from? Although happens in BC2 as well, but it's funnier when you blast em with a tank, which is wtf I LOVE about battlefield, if you camp, you must do so skillfully and tactically, else you'll get blown to bits by a tank or heli, and even then it's not really camping since you have to keep moving. So you can't be a silly "noob" camper and get all kinds of phr33 kills.

So I eventually got fed up and sold both CoD's, never touched a CoD since. Now I'm waiting on BF3 and X-Rebirth while I take a nice slow run through Witcher 2 and spam my presence in Borderlands :)
 
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